Okay, I checked out Jim Sterling's twitter feed and at the time, he was checking out what the deal was with Ocean Marketing and Dave, a reader for Kotaku concerning an inquiry as to when will the PS3 controller he pre-ordered. And the conversation got kind of intense as the PR representative isn't exactly being professional with his response. To be more accurate, he is being kind of a douche, regardless of Dave still willing to wait for his order to arrive even though the controllers he ordered are already 10 dollars off a few days prior to Christmas. Here's the article from Penny Arcade:
EDIT: In case you are unable to visit the site, here's the email conversation:
I got an incredible email today from a Penny Arcade reader. Dave shared with me an email chain between him and Ocean Marketing (the folks behind the Avenger controller) Trust me when I tell you that this is one wild ride. I’m serious, Mr. Toad would look at this ride and just give a slow clap while shaking his head. I have tried to arrange this as best I can in chronological order. I’ve also removed email addresses and other private information. So let’s just jump right in, here is Dave’s first mail to Ocean Marketing:
From: Dave To: Ocean Marketing Dec 16, 2011, at 1:34 PM
I ordered 2 of the upcoming PS3 controllers (invoice xxxxxxxxx—Nov 3, 2011). Any chance of getting an update of when these items will ship? I’m not really happy about being forced to pay upfront then have the advertised date of “Early December” be completely missed without any sort of update on availability. I really need one of them for a X-mas present as well. Anyways, looking forward to finally using one of these bad boys. Thanks and happy holidays.
-Dave
From: Ocean Marketing To: Dave Dec 16, 2011 2:45 PM
Dec 17
- Paul Christoforo
From: Dave To: Ocean Marketing Dec 19, 2011, at 11:02 AM
Thanks for the reply Paul. Can you clarify whether my particular order already sent or if Dec 17 was the first day shipments went out? I have not received any sort of shipping confirmation email or tracking information.
From: Ocean Marketing To: Dave Dec 19, 2011 11:21 AM
They still haven’t shipped yet on the way here from china
From: Dave To: Ocean Marketing Dec 20, 2011 4:29 PM
So then delivery to customer doors by December 24th is no longer likely correct? Do you have an estimated date of when units will arrive in California? Thanks.
From: Ocean Marketing To: Dave Dec 20, 2011 5:11 PM
They are in the USA now in customs so its wither before or after Christmas.
From: Dave To: Ocean Marketing Dec 26, 2011, at 9:47 AM
I noticed the updated info on the webpage, and I don’t understand why there is absolutely no benefit given to those like me who have already ordered, and paid their money. You’ve had my money interest free for nearly two months, yet now ANY new order will get $10 off….meaning I should just cancel my order for 2 controllers, get my money back, then re-order.
My other questions is regarding item compatibility. Ocean Marketing seems to be involved with the Xtendplay controller holder, so I was wondering if the Avenger N-Controller can be used in conjunction with the Xtendplay (for both Xbox and PS3)? Thanks
From: Ocean Marketing To: Dave Dec 26, 2011 10:14 AM
Yes it can be used with xtend play if you remove the stand and no one is allowed to cancel and re order if we catch anyone doing it we will simply just cancel your order all together and you can buy it retail somewhere else.
Things happen in manufacturing if your unhappy you have 7 days from the day your item ships for a refund. You placed a pre order just like any software title the gets a date moved due to the tweaks and bugs not being worked out and GameStop or any other place holds your cash and im sure you don’t complain to activision or epic games so put on your big boy hat and wait it out like everyone else. The benefit is a token of our appreaciation for everyone no one is special including you or any first time buyer . Feel free to cancel we need the units were back ordered 11,000 units so your 2 will be gone fast. Maybe I’ll put them on eBay for 150.00 myself. Have a good day Dan.
At this point Dave is (I think) understandably frustrated. His next email is sent to me as well as Kotaku and a few other news sites.
-Gabe
From: Dave To: Ocean Marketing Dec 26, 2011 12:11 PM
Then cancel my order if you want to. I’m making a legitimate complaint about your poor communication and you’re the one stooping to childish levels, a patronizing attitude, and threats. Hell you can’t even get the spelling of my name right.
And Gamespot pre-orders…wow what a terrible comparison. Retailers take a couple dollars IF THAT for you to guarantee your game availability on the release date, whatever that is. That’s the understanding and that’s what you get. Plus, I don’t have to complain to Activision or Epic games about these issues because they’re usually not missing the street dates for their AAA titles.
Now let’s take YOUR situation: 1) You’ve promised a new product based off the design for an existing, working product 2) For the longest time, you’ve stated on your website (your failure to update regularly is another issue) the initial/special/limited batch of your new product by early December, obviously in time for the all-important holiday gift-giving season. I and thousands of other customers GIVE YOU OUR MONEY, INTEREST FREE on the promises you made online. 3) I reach out to you, on Dec 16 (AFTER you have FAILED TO MEET YOUR ADVERTISED DEADLINE AND FAILED TO COMMUNICATE TO ANYONE WHAT THE SITUATION IS) obviously a little frustrated but more curious about when I and other customers can expect the product we paid for. 4) Your reply to me is a cryptic “Dec 17” with absolutely no explanation of what that means. In the mean time you having been using funds from pre-paid customers to complete Research & Development, product redesigns, and manufacturing mis-steps. 5) You force me to follow-up with an email asking for clarification about what “Dec 17” means since the day has passed and I have yet to receive any new information about my order. Now you instead of ANSWERING MY QUESTION OF WHAT THE NEW DELIVERY DATE IS, you tell me the goods have yet to leave China… Why are you telling me this? I’m not your employee I’m your goddamn customer! TELL ME WHAT THAT MEANS IN TERMS OF MY TIME AND WHEN I CAN EXPECT MY PRODUCT I PAID FOR. 6) So great…I have to email you AGAIN trying to get a CLEAR answer from you whether a Dec 24th delivery date is possible and if not, what the new date is. Rinse & repeat: You give me an update of the delivery process (wow, thanks…you haven’t told me anything I don’t know about the order of international shipping procedures) but instead say “...so its wither before or after Christmas.” WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN? GIVE ME A DATE!? One that you’re actually going to follow, because I already see “late Nov to early Dec”; “Dec 17”; and now “CHRISTMAS” in my rear-view mirror. 7) So I guess what’s left for me to do but just wait? Oh but what’s this, you’ve updated your website…Ok at least you’ve clarified the dates more, I can expect my controller my latest first week of January. But now as a “token of our appreciation” to all your “loyal customers” (you mean like customers who put up cash for you hold an use?) you’re giving a $10 coupon. Let me get this straight…so you held my money interest free for 2 months to help bring this product to market, and now some new customer can place an order and pay $10 less than what I paid? You have financially penalized me in two ways for being a “LOYAL CUSTOMER.”
I’m SURE you’re getting tons of other inquiries and I’m sure you’re not enjoying the fact that your product is not out when you wanted it to be. I and everyone else understands that “sh*t happens,” but if you want us to be understanding of that, then you need to keep us in the loop. You’ve already set yourself up for failure by making explicit promises that aren’t even “likely” given that the design and manufacturing are still be refined. Then you make sure you’re going to fail by actually taking all of our money, Not just a little bit….THE WHOLE F*CKIN BEEFALO. Why wouldn’t we trust that you’re going to deliver our merchandise on time? Besides…it’s based off an existing product so how hard can it be? Well as your youtube video shows, making any consumer device is hard and requires many iterations and improvements. But I’m not going to apologize for holding your feet to the fire. You created these expectations by acting like the release was already a done deal and by hiding the fact that it was faaaar from it.
I want my two n-controllers. I 1) PAID FOR THEM 2) WAITED 3) DEALT WITH YOUR UNHELPFUL ASS. I also didn’t want to feel like my trust and loyalty as a customer was being abused and then actually punished in comparison to other customers. But I guess we can’t have it all… so right now I’ll settle for getting my merchandise and hopefully never having to deal with you again. I’ve spent enough time writing this email which I hope you gain some insight from. If you actually do want to screw me over by not fulfilling my order, then I assure you be hearing more from me or people representing me.
You show a surprising lack of business polish for someone who’s quite established, AND an lack of awareness of your customer base: Hardcore gamers. We’re a demanding, vocal customer but the flip side is we’re loyal and eager to spend. It’s lucky for you that I really want this product because it seems really deliver on making the gaming experience more effective and enjoyable. Hell, I want to combine the aventer-controller with the xtend play to make the ugliest, most comfortable, most awesome controller ever. And I’ll still buy the xtend, so let that be a testament to your products, the rise above your poor representation.
-DAVE with a V
p.s. You look really douchy be having one youtube video complaining about the noise of traffic next to your home and then another video showing off your obnoxiously loud rice rocket (which is nice, I gotta hand it ya).
p.p.s. Welcome to the internet, bitch. That’s how I roll.
From: Ocean Marketing To: Dave Dec 26, 2011 2:19 PM
LOL Thanks for the Free PR I know the Editor N Chief of Kotaku , IGN , Engadget I’ll be meeting them at CES .The noise complaint was for people high up on the food chain in a corporate world of real estate you have no clue about. Thanks for the Rice Rocket Compliment too love me some motorcycle . Send that over to Engadget you look like a complete moron swearing and sending your customer service complaints to a magazine as if they will post it or even pay attention do you think you’re the first or the last what are they going to do demand us to tell you were your shipment is or ask for a refund on your behalf … Really ... Welcome to the Internet ? Son Im 38 I wwebsite as on the internet when you were a sperm in your daddys balls and before it was the internet, thanks for the welcome to message wurd up. Grow up you look like a complete child bro. I Don’t have my controller so im gonna cry to the world … Really ?? Hey take that free time and do something more productive. All you had to do was check the like everyone else , people have inquired but you’re the douchiest of them all J
To all our pre-order customers looking for information on the status of their orders after a busy couple of months The PS3 Avengers are on their way from our Manufacturing plant overseas. We are aware that everyone is anticipating having their Avengers under their Christmas Tree and were doing our best to get these orders shipped out as fast as possible. We appreciate you as loyal customers and for supporting our company. Customers will start receiving their products this week before Christmas and After Christmas and into the New Year. As a token of our appreciation we are offering all our pre-order customers and new customers 10$ off your next order with us just enter Avenger1001 at Checkout. Thank you and Happy Holidays!
Oh and FYI When a street date gets pushed by a publisher on a video game you pre ordered do you cry to them too ?
You just got told bitch … welcome to the real internet check kotaku in 2 weeks when they are reviewing free PS3 Avengers we send them as well as G4 and all the other majors hell yeah , don’t forget to check Amazon, gamestop.com, play n trade , Myers , Frys and a ton of other local stores coming your way you think you speak for billions son your just a kid you speak for yourself no one cares what you think that’s why were growing and moving 20-50 thousand controllers a month. We do value our customers but sometimes we get children like you we just have to put you in the corner with your im stupid hat on. See you at CES , E3 , Pax East ….? Oh wait you have to ask mom and pa dukes your not an industry professional and you have no money on snap you just got told.
The Pax East comment gets my attention and I decide to engage. I tend to have a calming effect on these sorts of arguments.
-Gabe
From: Mike Krahulik To: Dave, Ocean Marketing Dec 26, 2011 at 8:45 PM
Holy shit this is unbelievable. Dave, if this guy has a booth at Pax east we will cancel it.
From: Dave To: Mike Krahulik Dec 26, 2011 at 8:53 PM
Hey thanks Mike. It’s truly a shame because I think this device is great for gamers with disabilities and problems. I think of Child’s Play and if anyone’s gonna need greater accessibility when using complicated gamepads…it’s sick kids! Shit man, I’m really gonna feel bad if I think that sick children may somewhere down the line have fewer avenger controllers because I got into a pissing match with a sad old man. Please don’t cancel their booth on my account. As much as I hate this asshole, I still WANT his product and think it should be out there. GAH, I wish I was in a position to make a competing product to really stick it to guy.
From: Ocean Marketing To: Mike Krahulik Dec 26, 2011 at 8:54 PM
Hey Mikey,
We’re not renting a booth at pax east this year , bigger and better shows to be at we got nothing from the show . Oh so you know this guy has sold over 500 thousand dollars of product in Dec and is my main distribution arm landing us in GameStop , fry’s , Myers , Best buy , Activision , MLG , play N trade and a lot more . Were in 6 countries and you’re not going to take my money for a booth that’s a crock I can guarantee I’ll get a booth if I want one money buys a lot and connections go even further. He’s a native Bostonian from Little Italy . Who are you again ?
Oh Teh Noes!
-Gabe
From: Mike Krahulik To: Ocean Marketing Dec 26, 2011 at 9:08 PM
I am mike krahulik, Pax is my show. Feel free to google me=) I can promise you that you will never have space at any future Pax event.
From: Ocean Marketing To: Mike Krahulik Dec 26, 2011 at 9:33 PM
OK Mike whatever you say lol , are you sure hour not in Boston I spoke to the person who ran the show in Boston last year. If you let some little kid influence you over a pre order then we don’t want to be a your show ,Ill be on the floor anyway so come find me , I’m born and raised in Boston I know the people who run the city inside and out watch the way you talk to people you never know who they know it’s a small industry and everyone knows everyone. Your acting like a douchbag not that it matters pax east pax west , e3 , CES , Gamer Con , SSXW ,Comic Con, Germany I’m all over the place. If we want to be there we will be there with industry badges or with a booth you think I can’t team up with turtle beach , Callibur or Koy Christmas , I can’t get Kevin Kelly to pull some strings or G4 , Paul Eibler Ex CEO of take 2 , Rich Larocco Konami , Cliff Blizinski Epic who were working with on a gears version , Activision who were working with on a MW3 and Spider man Bundle , The Convention Center Owners themselves , Mayor of Boston come on Bud you run a show that’s all you do and lease a center in Cities you have no pull in its all about who you know not what you do. I’ll see space where ever I want , with who I want when I want and where I want so many ways around you and so many connections in this industry its silly. Anyway , I have no issue with you Sean Buckley Engadget, Scott Lowe IGN and the list goes on and on. Little kids unhappy with a PRE ORDER starting trouble and you email that to us , he’s a customer unless you’re his boyfriend then you should side with the company not the customer. Be Careful
From: Mike Krahulik To: Ocean Marketing Dec 26, 2011 at 9:40 PM
I do run Pax, but I also run a website called penny arcade. It’s kinda popular.
From: Ocean Marketing To: Mike Krahulik Dec 26, 2011 at 9:41 PM
Love penny Arcade !!
From: Mike Krahulik To: Ocean Marketing Dec 26, 2011 at 9:42 PM
I’m glad you like it! You will be on it tomorrow
From: Ocean Marketing To: Mike Krahulik Dec 26, 2011 at 9:46 PM
Great !! Love PR
From: Ocean Marketing To: Mike Krahulik Dec 26, 2011 at 9:46 PM
Mike I’m not trying to fight with you I’m really not , you should give me the benefit of the doubt before judging over one person’s bitching . Did I feed into his emails a little bit too much yeah ok . But it’s one person dude for real. No disrespect intended for you , My name is good in this industry and I know a lot of people. I’ll be at CES are you going ?
From: Mike Krahulik To: Ocean Marketing Dec 26, 2011 at 9:47 PM
Please remove me from this mailing list
From: Ocean Marketing To: Mike Krahulik Dec 26, 2011 at 9:57 PM
Your spamming me you’re not on a mailing list you idiot ! You sent me an email remember . Make sure you stir up a lot of controversy about us the more the better we needed some drama gets good blood flow going about the new product launch . Your sites amateur at best my son could put together a better site than yours and you run PAX ?? Wow , Ill put my marketing team on a smear campaign of you and your site and your emails , I have about 125 dedicated people to run PR , Blogs , Articles , Videos you have no clue who I am . Thanks again
I can’t wait for the Penny Arcade smear campaign!
Oh and I’ll just leave this here:
-Gabe out
info@avengercontroller.com Ocean Marketing Paul Christoforo on Twitter - @OceanMarketting 800-492-5455
Even on Paul Christoforo's Ocean Marketing's Twitter feed, he is being a dick. Hell, one guy who worked for IGN can vouch for the fact that he isn't very pleasant to work with. Here's what Scott Lowe had to say
To which Paul responded:
One does not have to be in the customer service business to know that this is anything BUT Customer Satisfaction. I could say that the way Ocean Marketing responded to Dave was just plain rude, but I think an adjective like that does not do the company justice. More like dreadfully incompetent. Hell, from the looks of the emails, he can't even write a proper letter without going for a bit of leet speak rather than proper grammar, like what any professional should.
And that's not the first time they have done this! Oh, no! Gameranx also posted an article about Ocean Marketing in which their experience with the company isn't very pleasant. There is a reason why Public Relations exists in every company. They are supposed to represent the company itself. If you fuck up by being as immature as a stereotypical kid on Xbox Live, then you are tarnishing the reputation of the company.
On top of that, he intends to make a smear campaign against Penny Arcade to boot. I already know what the outcome of that campaign will be in case he really meant what he said. It won't be pretty for the company, that's for sure...
Note: Something tells me this will be another meme: "Son, I wwebsite as on the internet when you were a sperm in your daddys balls and before it was the internet"
The site seems down for me.. I wished the site would tell me what you were actually talking about here. So basically a company that sells boats, has a bad customer service. Well that is not something I personally care about at all. Sorry.
e: Yeah I read it 5 times and still can't make sense of it.
On December 28 2011 00:58 Xiron wrote: The site seems down for me.. I wished the site would tell me what you were actually talking about here. So basically a company that sells boats, has a bad customer service. Well that is not something I personally care about at all. Sorry.
e: Yeah I read it 5 times and still can't make sense of it.
Here's the gist:
Guy pre-ordered a PS3 controller full-price which is supposed to come out this month. He sent an email to the PR for shipping and tracking inquiries and the information given to him was pretty vague. And because the products are coming out a little later than the promised "before Christmas" time frame, he wondered if he can get some form of compensation for it because ever since the update, people who pre-ordered within the month will get a discounted price. Then things did not go so well because the rep was acting like a jackass
That's just bad form. If the Rep had just explained in the first e-mail what was going on and apologized for the situation, there wouldn't have been a problem. Sure, Dave would've still been mad that his controllers weren't gonna be there by Christmas, but he said himself that he understands that "sh*t happens". Instead, the Rep goes all holier than thou via e-mail, pretends like his company is in no way at fault, and proceeds to make an idiot of himself. #1 rule of customer service in any field: ALWAYS be courteous to the customers, no matter how stupid they're being. And Dave wasn't even being stupid.
On December 28 2011 01:24 Janaan wrote: That's just bad form. If the Rep had just explained in the first e-mail what was going on and apologized for the situation, there wouldn't have been a problem. Sure, Dave would've still been mad that his controllers weren't gonna be there by Christmas, but he said himself that he understands that "sh*t happens". Instead, the Rep goes all holier than thou via e-mail, pretends like his company is in no way at fault, and proceeds to make an idiot of himself. #1 rule of customer service in any field: ALWAYS be courteous to the customers, no matter how stupid they're being. And Dave wasn't even being stupid.
Since I used to work in a similar business like this, I can understand. Customers will not be happy that the stuff they bought will not come in time for Xmas but they can get over it, depending on their personality. The basic trick to customer satisfaction lies in one word: EMPATHY
I'm glad you posted this. I wanted to post it earlier today and didn't have the time yet.
I e-mailed Mr. Christoforo at info@avengercontroller.com and received a fairly unprofessional response (surprisingly enough), and also sent a message to the people that make the controller via their web site saying that I couldn't support a company whose customer service rep would treat a customer that way.
To be clear, this isn't a case of a bad seed at this Ocean Marketing company. The dude talking trash, unless he's signing his boss's name, is Paul Christoforo, the president of the company.
On December 28 2011 01:38 masterbreti wrote: I have to admit I am laughing right now. This entire thing will destory this guys reputation.
Indeed he shall. Amazon users are giving the controller that Ocean's is selling some really dreadful reviews before it's even out. Reminds me of MW3's Metacritic reviews except, for the most part, they are pretty valid
On December 28 2011 01:38 masterbreti wrote: I have to admit I am laughing right now. This entire thing will destory this guys reputation.
Indeed he shall. Amazon users are giving the controller that Ocean's is selling some really dreadful reviews before it's even out. Reminds me of MW3's Metacritic reviews except, for the most part, they are pretty valid
To be fair, my understanding is that Ocean Marketing is separate from the company actually making the controller adaptor, which seems like a cool product. I'd hate to see a video game company get brought down by the douchiness of one hired hand.
I honestly didn't know that people as old as this guy could be this stupid. At least I know now that it's possible. Anyways, this guy just punched a bunch of holes in his boat and now it's going to sink. I doubt we will be hearing too much from his company any more.
On December 28 2011 01:38 masterbreti wrote: I have to admit I am laughing right now. This entire thing will destory this guys reputation.
Indeed he shall. Amazon users are giving the controller that Ocean's is selling some really dreadful reviews before it's even out. Reminds me of MW3's Metacritic reviews except, for the most part, they are pretty valid
To be fair, my understanding is that Ocean Marketing is separate from the company actually making the controller adaptor, which seems like a cool product. I'd hate to see a video game company get brought down by the douchiness of one hired hand.
They are kind of like the guys who are responsible for marketing products. So it's likely the clients will no longer want to do business with them anytime soon
On December 28 2011 01:58 PassiveAce wrote: Uh, is anyone else having trouble with Penny Arcade atm?
I am not surprised. I mean, the site must be getting bombarded with views of that article as we speak. That might attribute to the site getting a little slower.
I saw this on reddit this morning. This company has to have the worst customer support and has a huge asshole/douchebag saying he knows all important people when in reality, none of these people will support him.
I wonder if it is the same guy. It is the same name and lists the same college, but it could just be a wild coincidence. It would however explain how he is seemingly so bad at PR with his degree being in Culinary Arts.
What a trainwreck. I'd feel bad for him if he didn't come across as such a douchebag.
I mean, I can understand saying stuff you didn't mean in person sometimes but this was email. He had all the time to stop and think if this was a good idea. I have to think he truly believes that this is an acceptable way to talk to people.
More seriously, I'm pretty sure you only need an element of common sense to do better than that, nothing terribly special such as an appropriate degree.
I don't think it will ever be a meme since it's just too big of a sentence. Anyways, always interesting to see someone fucking up this badly. lol @"IGN and whatever have my back" xd
There have been a couple of news articles about how terrible this guy is, haha. One of them had his linkedin account, which, ironically, reads in part of the description:
Last, we believe in the power of great relationships, founded on honor, accountability and being responsible – and we value being there for people and their business --- when it matters most 1. Our clients' interests come first. Our experience demonstrates that if we serve our clients with excellence, our success follows.
2. Integrity and honesty are at the core of our business values. We expect our leaders and people to maintain high ethical standards in everything they do, both in their work for Ocean Marketing and in their personal lives.
lol at this guys apologies. "I underestimated you and its cost me a lot of trouble..." So it's ok to treat someone like that, you just have to make sure they won't stand up for themselves first.
I feel sorry for the guy who actually invented the controller and wants it to succeed. OceanMarketing seem to have probably sent his product into a nosedive towards failure.
I just wanted to post an update with some of the stuff that has happened over on my end with regards to all this Ocean Marketing stuff.
Around midnight last night Paul sent me a mail saying that I could expect to hear from their attorneys. As of right now that still has not happened and honestly I don’t expect it will. Our attorneys (who are real people with an office and everything) are ready should it get to that point though.
At 7:12am this morning I got another mail from Paul. It was one line and simply said:
“You have the power Mike Please make it stop”
The reality is that once I had posted the emails I didn’t have the power anymore. The Internet had it now and nothing I said or did was going to change that.
An hour later I got a more complete apology:
Hey Mike,
I just wanted to apologize for the way our emails progressed I didn’t know how big your site was and I really didn’t believe you ran Pax , So for what’s its worth I am very sorry. Your post has obviously made my life very difficult and I have not slept yet dealing with all the spam and personal information intrusion as well as my family being smeared on the internet.
If you can please accept my apology and anything you can do to help if not me my son and wife please do. I have apologized to Dave and apologized to you what else can I do please tell me so I can make things good. I obviously care or I would not be emailing you.
I think there is a big difference between being sorry and being sorry you got caught. I have a real problem with bullies. I spent my childhood moving from school to school and I got made fun of everyplace I landed. I feel like Paul is a bully and maybe that’s why I have no sympathy here. Someday every bully meets and even bigger bully and maybe that’s me in this case. It’s the same thing that happened with Jack Thompson. It might not always make the most business sense and it is a policy that has caused us some legal problems, but I really don’t give a shit about that. When these assholes threaten me or Penny Arcade I just laugh. I will personally burn everything I’ve made to the fucking ground if I think I can catch them in the flames.
It's hilarious how his attitude changes when he realised it's Penny Arcade, tries to be apologetic but fails miserably and then goes back to his foul-mouthed don't-give-a-fuck (in the bad and not cool way) when that doesn't work.
Also I really question how people can even start to do business with him in the first place. I would love to read some of his pitch emails for the laughs. Maybe his wwebsite is really good.
A reddit user found a court document of him being charged for beating his wife and kotaku tracked him down as a user on some steroid website (roid rage much?).
The internet does not much care for it's ilk being treated poorly. Even more so when you poke at one of the Pillars of Geekdom in the US if not the world. What a terrible mistake to make. Sadly the product controller itself looks really neat and useful. I hope that it still does well because frankly this guy is a scumbag but that's not the controllers fault.
@rkhoo Robert Khoo Many are asking: It's not any one place that's slowing down PA this morning. Based on stats it's the whole Internet descending upon us.
Holy crap, that guy really looks like a douche. If I got "Dec 17" as an answer, without any update what so ever, followed by a reduction in price of 10$, I would've cancelled on the spot.
Don't know why, but even his final "apology" seems douchy to me. "Sorry man, I really didn't believe you ran Pax". What does that have to do with ANYTHING?
Rofl i'm laughing so hard right now because I see sales type like this guy every day @ work.
props for him actually going out and being a douche about it though, I personally wanted to do that to a client so many times... the name dropping wasn't cool though lol.
On December 28 2011 16:30 Parnage wrote: The internet does not much care for it's ilk being treated poorly. Even more so when you poke at one of the Pillars of Geekdom in the US if not the world. What a terrible mistake to make. Sadly the product controller itself looks really neat and useful. I hope that it still does well because frankly this guy is a scumbag but that's not the controllers fault.
Yeah... nice controller... but you can't beat a xim3 ( 1:1 translator / not a turbo controller ) + keyboard/mouse/mousepad though... ( with the latter 3 items you most likely already have )
lol.. wife beater...
On December 28 2011 16:41 NeoLearner wrote: Got to hand it to the guys from "Penny Arcade"
Holy crap, that guy really looks like a douche. If I got "Dec 17" as an answer, without any update what so ever, followed by a reduction in price of 10$, I would've cancelled on the spot.
Don't know why, but even his final "apology" seems douchy to me. "Sorry man, I really didn't believe you ran Pax". What does that have to do with ANYTHING?
Probably means if anyone is powerful, he'd be more careful... but if not... he'll go around mouthing off people...
Yap because of morons like this, i have to go personally to fix things, and then they cry like a little babies.. So much TIME lost because of idiots like this...
Wow... I have never seen anyone so reckless like that. I mean I thought that dude who threatened to blacklist people who gave negative reviews to an obviously shitty game was way out of line. This is just mind-boggling.
Uh, i'm confused, the one you linked also has "strategy" misspelled... Assuming that's what it's supposed to say. Either way, this is hilarious (and sad) at so many different levels. It seems after the third email, he just kind of tipped over the deep end and started rambling about how old he was, and being a patronizing ass to his customer. Hope he gets fired, lol. A sound kick in the balls wouldn't go amiss, either.
His English is so lol... wtf is he saying on his twitter...
"OceanStratagy Paul “@DuncanBuchan: how is the guy who owns @OceanStratagy aloud a freaking job he cant even spell” allowed, cantoo "
"ZombiWorkshop Lucan Monks @skinnylemur - c'mon, it's not like he can even spell 'strategy' so even using twitter at all is good for him. (@OceanStratagy) "
Yes sir it is, and many of us are gamers when we're not working. I can assure you that when you come looking for a job after you're fired that your resume will be returned with a little note. "Welcome to the internet, Bitch"
I wouldn't mind Dexter killing this guy. In fact I would prefer him killing this guy over many of the serial killers on his table. Just because it's probably this kind of people that turn you into a serial killer in the first place.
"Maybe before you signed the lease papers, you could have, oh, I don't know... LOOKED AT THE APARTMENT? It's your own fault you didn't check out the apartment to listen to noise, etc. It doesn't matter if they only showed it to you 3 days before you moved in... if you had any sense, you would have waited to actually see the place before signing your lease."
On December 29 2011 05:28 jacosajh wrote: I hate bad customer service as much as the next guy. Maybe more.
But I think he's long past gotten what he deserved. Maybe he had a bad day. Maybe he's just a dbag.
Ruining the rest of his life and snickering about it is no better than what he did. But that's just me.
This wasn't just a bad day. If he had just stopped his antics after he got caught and honestly apologized I think this might be going overboard by now but he didn't. It didn't take much searching for people to find he's exhibited this behavior in the past, and after pleading for help and forgiveness he's already back at 6 hours later.
The words of someone who had done work with him the past was something along the lines of "street thug masquerading as a marketing professional". Seriously, did you take a gander at his twitter for the last 24 hours? To say he's still throwing stones might be an understatement.
He just continues to blame other people, and accuse them of bullying him. He learned absolutely nothing about the incident, he's only sorry that he was caught because he wasn't caught the first two or three or a dozen times. Even worse, the entire time since it was released, he has been using his family as an excuse for his behavior and to deflect the hatred. I have never wanted someone to be jobless more than him, including Snookie.
And as it's turning out, his friend who owns the controller company isn't much better.
Again, stating that I don't advocate what happened.
But it really does seem like a lot of people are blowing this up for whatever reason. Some for hype/traffic. Some cause they have a personal agenda against the Avenger (never got one or waited too long).
On December 29 2011 08:01 jacosajh wrote: Again, stating that I don't advocate what happened.
But it really does seem like a lot of people are blowing this up for whatever reason. Some for hype/traffic. Some cause they have a personal agenda against the Avenger (never got one or waited too long).
The executive editor of IGN's Gadget section doesn't need to say Paul is unprofessional to work with in order to get attention or traffic.
@ScottLowe Scott Lowe Paul Christoforo's claims that he has my and @IGN's support are UNFOUNDED. I worked with him briefly and he was completely unprofessional. 27 Dec via Twitter for iPhone
kevinkelly Kevin Kelly @ @ScottLowe @IGN Ditto for me and @g4tv
He's getting what's due. No one is even mentioning family except for him. He's the person that's bringing them into this.
In his interview he says he has dealt with "thousands of customers before with similar complaints", trying to overinflate how big he is, not realizing that that is NOT a good thing. Also, I like how he says he would have handled this situation better if he knew who he was talking to, not realizing that the whole point is that he shouldn't be talking to ANYBODY (let alone his customers) the way he was.
I can honestly say I can't think of anything I've ever seen that has made me dislike a person more short of being a criminal. This guy is like some walking douchebag prototype. Its almost like he is not a real person. He is like some kind of bully you would write into a film or something. Look at his twitter, this guys not "sorry" about anything. He is still acting like a Dbag.
On December 29 2011 08:17 Suichoy wrote: Incredible how he keeps saying this is "great pr".
It IS great PR. He's infamous now. He's probably generated at least several million views by now.
He buys a house without checking anything and then blames the Realtor for selling something to him that he didn't like. ( Signs a lease without checking... ) // The video is of him supposedly saying that Realtor is evil for selling him the house without sound proofing.
He's 38 and he seems like a "troll" without even trying to be one. Almost like he was born with those traits.
On December 29 2011 08:01 jacosajh wrote: Again, stating that I don't advocate what happened.
But it really does seem like a lot of people are blowing this up for whatever reason. Some for hype/traffic. Some cause they have a personal agenda against the Avenger (never got one or waited too long).
The executive editor of IGN's Gadget section doesn't need to say Paul is unprofessional to work with in order to get attention or traffic.
@ScottLowe Scott Lowe Paul Christoforo's claims that he has my and @IGN's support are UNFOUNDED. I worked with him briefly and he was completely unprofessional. 27 Dec via Twitter for iPhone
kevinkelly Kevin Kelly @ @ScottLowe @IGN Ditto for me and @g4tv
He's getting what's due. No one is even mentioning family except for him. He's the person that's bringing them into this.
So unprofessional behavior warrants more unprofessional behavior, as you see it then? No offense, but I would have expected more from a TL Staff Member. I'm not just talking about the direct actions of the "higher-ups" here like Kotaku and Gabe. Gabe's response to him wasn't any more professional. And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see how anyone can interpret anything he wrote as other than "Hey I'm going to amass an army of angry nerds (in a good way) to ruin your life."
Ok, he continues to be stupid about it. I would be dumber than him not to admit that.
But I really don't see how jumping on the "OH MAW GAWD ROFLCOPTER HE'S SO STUPID LET'S FACEBOOK STALK HIM AND DIG UP INFORMATION TO THREATEN HIM AND HIS FAMILY AND TRY TO RUIN HIS LIFE IN THE NAME OF JUSTICE" bandwagon is any more sensible.
Like I said, I get upset at bad customer service as much the next guy. Heck, I bothered EPB enough about the slow fiber install at my house that a VP (or something like that) called me a few weeks ago.
He got what was due. His life is already ruined. Do you really think he'll be able to find another decent job after this? I don't know, but I don't want to kick a man while he's down.
What do you think?
P.S. I did read just about everything on this subject I could find. Christmas break with not much better to do I like to think I'm not missing any pertinent information. I'd be glad to read more on it. (I'm just like everyone else; the drama is entertaining) And I feel the same way about Nate's issue.
Well if he actually learned his lesson and shut up, I imagine the general mass would blow over him pretty quickly... unfortunately due to that interview with MSNBC, it doesn't seem like he learned jack shit, so on goes the burning...
On December 29 2011 08:01 jacosajh wrote: Again, stating that I don't advocate what happened.
But it really does seem like a lot of people are blowing this up for whatever reason. Some for hype/traffic. Some cause they have a personal agenda against the Avenger (never got one or waited too long).
The executive editor of IGN's Gadget section doesn't need to say Paul is unprofessional to work with in order to get attention or traffic.
@ScottLowe Scott Lowe Paul Christoforo's claims that he has my and @IGN's support are UNFOUNDED. I worked with him briefly and he was completely unprofessional. 27 Dec via Twitter for iPhone
kevinkelly Kevin Kelly @ @ScottLowe @IGN Ditto for me and @g4tv
He's getting what's due. No one is even mentioning family except for him. He's the person that's bringing them into this.
So unprofessional behavior warrants more unprofessional behavior, as you see it then? No offense, but I would have expected more from a TL Staff Member. I'm not just talking about the direct actions of the "higher-ups" here like Kotaku and Gabe. Gabe's response to him wasn't any more professional. And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see how anyone can interpret anything he wrote as other than "Hey I'm going to amass an army of angry nerds (in a good way) to ruin your life."
Ok, he continues to be stupid about it. I would be dumber than him not to admit that.
But I really don't see how jumping on the "OH MAW GAWD ROFLCOPTER HE'S SO STUPID LET'S FACEBOOK STALK HIM AND DIG UP INFORMATION TO THREATEN HIM AND HIS FAMILY AND TRY TO RUIN HIS LIFE IN THE NAME OF JUSTICE" bandwagon is any more sensible.
Like I said, I get upset at bad customer service as much the next guy. Heck, I bothered EPB enough about the slow fiber install at my house that a VP (or something like that) called me a few weeks ago.
He got what was due. His life is already ruined. Do you really think he'll be able to find another decent job after this? I don't know, but I don't want to kick a man while he's down.
What do you think?
P.S. I did read just about everything on this subject I could find. Christmas break with not much better to do I like to think I'm not missing any pertinent information. I'd be glad to read more on it. (I'm just like everyone else; the drama is entertaining) And I feel the same way about Nate's issue.
Nothing was unprofessional about what PA did. They made a public service announcement about a terrible company. If they hadn't done anything, he would've continued with his behavior in the same way he did back in the spring with that other customer. TL is a site where thousands of fools toss around the word 'unprofessional' without having a clue what it means. In this case, Paul was truly unprofessional and on top of that, tried to bully his customers.
His interview shows no remorse or acceptance that he's an asshole. His life is getting ruined because he deserves it. He's repeatedly been an ass to multiple customers and people, and on top of that has a domestic abuse record against him. If PA doesn't publish it, then absolutely nothing changes about him or his company. He continues to abuse customers and he continues to get away with it.
This isn't a guy who just had a bad day. He's just a bad guy. No one did anything to his family except for him. He introduced them to try and make people back off. Theyre his defense shield for his own misgivings.
On December 29 2011 14:00 Gann1 wrote: LOL this is great.
Shame about all the customers' money being held up, but at least this douche has been exposed for all to point and laugh at
Yup. After reading through everything I honestly hope this guy continues to get grilled. I have so sympathy and if I ever treated a paying customer who ISN'T getting what they already paid for in this manner I certainly would expect the same thing to happen.
People are much too soft if they want him to continue running this kind of business after a light slap in the wrists that might paint him in bad light for a few months.
On December 29 2011 08:01 jacosajh wrote: Again, stating that I don't advocate what happened.
But it really does seem like a lot of people are blowing this up for whatever reason. Some for hype/traffic. Some cause they have a personal agenda against the Avenger (never got one or waited too long).
The executive editor of IGN's Gadget section doesn't need to say Paul is unprofessional to work with in order to get attention or traffic.
@ScottLowe Scott Lowe Paul Christoforo's claims that he has my and @IGN's support are UNFOUNDED. I worked with him briefly and he was completely unprofessional. 27 Dec via Twitter for iPhone
kevinkelly Kevin Kelly @ @ScottLowe @IGN Ditto for me and @g4tv
He's getting what's due. No one is even mentioning family except for him. He's the person that's bringing them into this.
So unprofessional behavior warrants more unprofessional behavior, as you see it then? No offense, but I would have expected more from a TL Staff Member. I'm not just talking about the direct actions of the "higher-ups" here like Kotaku and Gabe. Gabe's response to him wasn't any more professional. And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see how anyone can interpret anything he wrote as other than "Hey I'm going to amass an army of angry nerds (in a good way) to ruin your life."
Ok, he continues to be stupid about it. I would be dumber than him not to admit that.
But I really don't see how jumping on the "OH MAW GAWD ROFLCOPTER HE'S SO STUPID LET'S FACEBOOK STALK HIM AND DIG UP INFORMATION TO THREATEN HIM AND HIS FAMILY AND TRY TO RUIN HIS LIFE IN THE NAME OF JUSTICE" bandwagon is any more sensible.
Like I said, I get upset at bad customer service as much the next guy. Heck, I bothered EPB enough about the slow fiber install at my house that a VP (or something like that) called me a few weeks ago.
He got what was due. His life is already ruined. Do you really think he'll be able to find another decent job after this? I don't know, but I don't want to kick a man while he's down.
What do you think?
P.S. I did read just about everything on this subject I could find. Christmas break with not much better to do I like to think I'm not missing any pertinent information. I'd be glad to read more on it. (I'm just like everyone else; the drama is entertaining) And I feel the same way about Nate's issue.
Nothing was unprofessional about what PA did. They made a public service announcement about a terrible company. If they hadn't done anything, he would've continued with his behavior in the same way he did back in the spring with that other customer. TL is a site where thousands of fools toss around the word 'unprofessional' without having a clue what it means. In this case, Paul was truly unprofessional and on top of that, tried to bully his customers.
His interview shows no remorse or acceptance that he's an asshole. His life is getting ruined because he deserves it. He's repeatedly been an ass to multiple customers and people, and on top of that has a domestic abuse record against him. If PA doesn't publish it, then absolutely nothing changes about him or his company. He continues to abuse customers and he continues to get away with it.
This isn't a guy who just had a bad day. He's just a bad guy. No one did anything to his family except for him. He introduced them to try and make people back off. Theyre his defense shield for his own misgivings.
From his interview with MSNBC.
he emailed me out of the blue, saying 'That's f***ing s***ty, you're banned from PAX,' I was like 'Who the f*** are you? That's how you introduce yourself? ... I dont want to call him out, but he could have gone about that a totally different way, he could have said, 'Hey, I run the show, that email was a little unprofessional, if you don't do something to apologize I don't want you at my show.' But he just came at me and said, indirectly, 'Hey, f*** you, you're banned from PAX.' Is that what you'd call professional?
If this is true, yes, that's unprofessional.
I am mike krahulik, Pax is my show. Feel free to google me=) I can promise you that you will never have space at any future Pax event.
I do run Pax, but I also run a website called penny arcade. It’s kinda popular.
To me that comes off as "I'm a smug asshole". But he probably doesn't care.
I was grinning all night as Paul sent me each new email. I am absolutely an unapologetic asshole, but I try as best I can to be your asshole.
Is that how you want to do a public service? To me, it seems more like an e-peen flex. Which he doesn't apologize for. Like he said, he doesn't like bullies and "maybe he's the bigger bully here now." Seems more to me like he's punishing someone since he got picked on at school. The public service was the cherry on top.
Remember when GG.net created that list of top SC players and Idra wasn't on it? All hell broke amongst TL staff. That may have even been considered a public service. A list of TOP NON-KOREAN SC players without Idra? Many considered that an illegitimate list that no one should take seriously. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181427
Perhaps the TL staff (kennigit, zelniq, myself) could have conducted ourselves better in the topic, no in fact we should have conducted ourselves better in the topic. But the whole situation was so ludicrous that were left thinking "are they actually serious?" and we got caught up in the whole emotional drama of the event. So yeah, not TL's brightest day. Such a lapse in professionalism shouldn't happen, for that we apologise and it won't happen again.
I believe I am using the term unprofessional here in the correct way. I can't believe I've expended so much effort into this. It's whatever to me anyways. And you are entitled to your own opinions of course
Is it the customer service issue that everyone is all up in arms about? Because there is worse customer service out there. Or is it that he continued to be an asshole afterwards? Because there are a lot of assholes that are worshiped.
I'm not saying he doesn't deserve consequences. But I'm not willing to tar and feather him.
No one is lynching him; everyone is. In that sense, no one is responsible, and everyone is. He's paying for other people, true.
Other than that, his unprofessionalism also comes from the fact that he's unable to write in proper english and could not react properly to what happened and is still unable to do so. Not only from his first reaction.
On December 29 2011 08:01 jacosajh wrote: Again, stating that I don't advocate what happened.
But it really does seem like a lot of people are blowing this up for whatever reason. Some for hype/traffic. Some cause they have a personal agenda against the Avenger (never got one or waited too long).
The executive editor of IGN's Gadget section doesn't need to say Paul is unprofessional to work with in order to get attention or traffic.
@ScottLowe Scott Lowe Paul Christoforo's claims that he has my and @IGN's support are UNFOUNDED. I worked with him briefly and he was completely unprofessional. 27 Dec via Twitter for iPhone
kevinkelly Kevin Kelly @ @ScottLowe @IGN Ditto for me and @g4tv
He's getting what's due. No one is even mentioning family except for him. He's the person that's bringing them into this.
So unprofessional behavior warrants more unprofessional behavior, as you see it then? No offense, but I would have expected more from a TL Staff Member. I'm not just talking about the direct actions of the "higher-ups" here like Kotaku and Gabe. Gabe's response to him wasn't any more professional. And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see how anyone can interpret anything he wrote as other than "Hey I'm going to amass an army of angry nerds (in a good way) to ruin your life."
Ok, he continues to be stupid about it. I would be dumber than him not to admit that.
But I really don't see how jumping on the "OH MAW GAWD ROFLCOPTER HE'S SO STUPID LET'S FACEBOOK STALK HIM AND DIG UP INFORMATION TO THREATEN HIM AND HIS FAMILY AND TRY TO RUIN HIS LIFE IN THE NAME OF JUSTICE" bandwagon is any more sensible.
Like I said, I get upset at bad customer service as much the next guy. Heck, I bothered EPB enough about the slow fiber install at my house that a VP (or something like that) called me a few weeks ago.
He got what was due. His life is already ruined. Do you really think he'll be able to find another decent job after this? I don't know, but I don't want to kick a man while he's down.
What do you think?
P.S. I did read just about everything on this subject I could find. Christmas break with not much better to do I like to think I'm not missing any pertinent information. I'd be glad to read more on it. (I'm just like everyone else; the drama is entertaining) And I feel the same way about Nate's issue.
Nothing was unprofessional about what PA did. They made a public service announcement about a terrible company. If they hadn't done anything, he would've continued with his behavior in the same way he did back in the spring with that other customer. TL is a site where thousands of fools toss around the word 'unprofessional' without having a clue what it means. In this case, Paul was truly unprofessional and on top of that, tried to bully his customers.
His interview shows no remorse or acceptance that he's an asshole. His life is getting ruined because he deserves it. He's repeatedly been an ass to multiple customers and people, and on top of that has a domestic abuse record against him. If PA doesn't publish it, then absolutely nothing changes about him or his company. He continues to abuse customers and he continues to get away with it.
This isn't a guy who just had a bad day. He's just a bad guy. No one did anything to his family except for him. He introduced them to try and make people back off. Theyre his defense shield for his own misgivings.
he emailed me out of the blue, saying 'That's f***ing s***ty, you're banned from PAX,' I was like 'Who the f*** are you? That's how you introduce yourself? ... I dont want to call him out, but he could have gone about that a totally different way, he could have said, 'Hey, I run the show, that email was a little unprofessional, if you don't do something to apologize I don't want you at my show.' But he just came at me and said, indirectly, 'Hey, f*** you, you're banned from PAX.' Is that what you'd call professional?
I was grinning all night as Paul sent me each new email. I am absolutely an unapologetic asshole, but I try as best I can to be your asshole.
Is that how you want to do a public service? To me, it seems more like an e-peen flex. Which he doesn't apologize for. Like he said, he doesn't like bullies and "maybe he's the bigger bully here now." Seems more to me like he's punishing someone since he got picked on at school. The public service was the cherry on top.
Remember when GG.net created that list of top SC players and Idra wasn't on it? All hell broke amongst TL staff. That may have even been considered a public service. A list of TOP NON-KOREAN SC players without Idra? Many considered that an illegitimate list that no one should take seriously. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181427
Perhaps the TL staff (kennigit, zelniq, myself) could have conducted ourselves better in the topic, no in fact we should have conducted ourselves better in the topic. But the whole situation was so ludicrous that were left thinking "are they actually serious?" and we got caught up in the whole emotional drama of the event. So yeah, not TL's brightest day. Such a lapse in professionalism shouldn't happen, for that we apologise and it won't happen again.
I believe I am using the term unprofessional here in the correct way. I can't believe I've expended so much effort into this. It's whatever to me anyways. And you are entitled to your own opinions of course
Is it the customer service issue that everyone is all up in arms about? Because there is worse customer service out there. Or is it that he continued to be an asshole afterwards? Because there are a lot of assholes that are worshiped.
I'm not saying he doesn't deserve consequences. But I'm not willing to tar and feather him.
TL was not a professional site or team then. I disagree with Plexa's assessment. There was no product being offered by either site, and no form of payment besides advertising. Making fun of GG's terribleness seems perfectly fine to me, since I'm just a volunteer and I would do the exact same as a regular user. If I'm supposed to set a better example, it's in terms of general conduct but that doesn't stop me from making fun of them for messing up. I have no professional obligation in that regard, only that I don't spam or violate other rules about it.
Gabe's introduction could have been better, but it only further shows how out of touch Paul is. His posting of the email correspondence, however, was not unprofessional. He only defamed a terrible company which he was personally subjected to (not as much as Dave was) on his own website, which is primarily used for his own comics and opinion blogs. That type of conduct is exactly what his website and business were built upon - making fun of Gamestop, Sony, EA, etc.
People are up in arms because he continued to be an asshole afterwards. Because he had the gall to name drop people (including the mayor of fucking Boston) and tell a paying customer that they're insignificant. That they don't matter, therefore they don't deserve respect. His followup interview portrays that exact same line of thinking. If he had known Gabe was someone important, he wouldn't have been an asshole. Because he believed Gabe and Dave were both unimportant, he believed they were fit to be ridiculed and intimidated. You're right that there are many assholes who share that same point of view, and unfortunately most of them don't receive the treatment that Paul has.
He is an asshole. He had a bad day. He apologized. Whether it was heartfelt or not doesn't really matter. I think it is extremely childish to continue berating someone that has apologized publicly.
He name dropped. He made stupid comments. A lot of people do that. Is it dumb? Extremely. But just because his was caught in writing means we crucify him in front of society? He was pretending to be a tough guy. He's immature. No one in their right mind would argue with this.
And I don't think many people are seeing that their is an apparent problem within the Avenger's business infrastructure itself. The delays in the products even long before Paul came into the scene point to massive failures within the company, outside of Ocean Marketing. Having worked contractual jobs for big and small firms myself, I know how this can be. It is extremely frustrating. It seems to me that there were A LOT of issues with the Avenger that he had no control over. Thousands of people complained. He snapped. It was wrong. Again, no one is going to argue this.
But it seems there are a lot more people making the situation worse than trying to make it better.
If anything, the Amazon reviews for the Avenger were more warranted than the treatment of Paul. He was the PR and he failed horribly. But what do you expect when you set your front-line people for failure?
For example, Comcast does not give their people the tools to solve many problems (YES I'VE ALREADY RESET MY MODEM, AND MY COMPUTER, AND MADE SURE ALL MY CONNECTIONS ARE TIGHT, AND TRIED ANOTHER COMPUTER, AND WENT TO THE LOCAL COMCAST BUILDING TO GET ANOTHER MODEM -- THE PROBLEM IS ON YOUR END). It makes me very upset. I sometimes raise my voice and give them an attitude. They do the same with me. But at the end of the day, I know the people to blame are the executives at the top.
On December 28 2011 01:38 masterbreti wrote: I have to admit I am laughing right now. This entire thing will destory this guys reputation.
Indeed he shall. Amazon users are giving the controller that Ocean's is selling some really dreadful reviews before it's even out. Reminds me of MW3's Metacritic reviews except, for the most part, they are pretty valid
To be fair, my understanding is that Ocean Marketing is separate from the company actually making the controller adaptor, which seems like a cool product. I'd hate to see a video game company get brought down by the douchiness of one hired hand.
Companies have to be responsible for who they allow to represent them. The manufacturer of the controller also has a responsibility to ensure that the people buying their controllers are getting good, reliable customer service. They deserve every bit of bad PR they get out of this. Have to stay on top of these types of things.
On December 28 2011 01:24 Janaan wrote: That's just bad form. If the Rep had just explained in the first e-mail what was going on and apologized for the situation, there wouldn't have been a problem. Sure, Dave would've still been mad that his controllers weren't gonna be there by Christmas, but he said himself that he understands that "sh*t happens". Instead, the Rep goes all holier than thou via e-mail, pretends like his company is in no way at fault, and proceeds to make an idiot of himself. #1 rule of customer service in any field: ALWAYS be courteous to the customers, no matter how stupid they're being. And Dave wasn't even being stupid.
Since I used to work in a similar business like this, I can understand. Customers will not be happy that the stuff they bought will not come in time for Xmas but they can get over it, depending on their personality. The basic trick to customer satisfaction lies in one word: EMPATHY
People who have never worked in this type of customer service cannot understand how incredibly annoying it can be. I used to work in an IT helpdesk for a university, trust me there is definetly a burnout factor. However even if you are stressed and holding back complete averice for the customer, you still can't say this kind of crap. Even if you really, really, really want to.
But some of his attitude is bizzare. He really seems to think he's some kind of important high roller business mogul because he answers emails for a video game controller company. Sad to say but I know some people like this IRL. Heads so far up their own asses they can't tell day from night.
Edit:
On December 30 2011 05:51 jacosajh wrote: He is an asshole. He had a bad day. He apologized. Whether it was heartfelt or not doesn't really matter. I think it is extremely childish to continue berating someone that has apologized publicly.
There is a big difference between slipping up and and saying something inappropriate to a customer, and completely and totally reaming them out. And then raging against another customer, even after they tell you that they are an incredibly influential figure in the market that you are in. In the customer service world, this is akin to setting the building on fire, then throwing gasoline on it, and then apologizing after it's burnt to a crisp. Apologizing doesn't just make that go away.
Dealing with annoying customers even on bad days, is part of the job. If you can't handle that, then you need to find another job.
Let em burn in the sty he's made for himself. What an absolute moron.
jacosajh your assessment is dead wrong. He's not a guy having a bad day. The links in this thread prove it to be habitual behavior. He's a douche and the platitude about all PR is good PR won't apply here. Negative PR is good PR right up until it destroys your company. .. Let's see how Ocean Strategy does in Q2 2012.
He didn't just have a bad day. It happened before. Judging by his writing, I'd venture to say he's just normally a douche bag like that. All the other shit about domestic abuse and previous complaints/interactions seem to support that. The first two emails may be the product of a "bad day" but his response after Dave asked for the $10 credit goes beyond that. Until Dave made that stupid "welcome to the internet" line, I thought he was being perfectly reasonable. I can't fathom any situation where you should tell a pre-paid customer that their reward for pre-paying is having your appreciation, especially when non-prepaying customers are getting a discount. That is just absolutely ludicrous.
I think the reviews on Amazon are unwarranted, in the context of Paul's behavior. Certainly people should be complaining about N-Controller and their history of late products (I already mentioned their creator earlier) but the product itself shouldn't be 1-starred on behalf of Paul.
In the normal customer service world, a complaint against someone like Paul would be escalated to his manager. Unfortunately, Paul is the President of Ocean Markatting.
On December 30 2011 06:09 Jibba wrote: He didn't just have a bad day. It happened before. Judging by his writing, I'd venture to say he's just normally a douche bag like that. All the other shit about domestic abuse and previous complaints/interactions seem to support that. And he is the president of the company. The first two emails may be the product of a "bad day" but his response after Dave asked for the $10 credit goes beyond that. Until Dave made that stupid "welcome to the internet" line, I thought he was being perfectly reasonable.
Having to deal with customers being emotional and unreasonable is just part of customer service. Customers can be as unreasonable and annoying as they want, service rep has no right to go off on them.
I think the reviews on Amazon are unwarranted, in the context of Paul's behavior. Certainly people should be complaining about N-Controller and their history of late products (I already mentioned their creator earlier) but the product itself shouldn't be 1-starred on behalf of Paul.
I don't. As I said before, the manufacturer has a responsibility to their customers to ensure that they are being provided with reasonable customer service. How hard would it be for someone in their office to periodically send in an email and check on how their service contracter dealt with it? When you outsource services to other companies, you are still responsible for ensuring that the end customer gets good service; it's still your product. I have no problem with the manufacturer getting poor PR over this.
Further, as with many products you buy, decent customer service is part of what you expect when you purchase it. Poor customer service is part of the reason people hate Dell. When I buy something expensive, I have a reasonable expectation that if something goes wrong with the order or the product I can contact the company and get help. That's part of the value of the purchase to me.
On December 30 2011 05:51 jacosajh wrote: He is an asshole. He had a bad day. He apologized. Whether it was heartfelt or not doesn't really matter. I think it is extremely childish to continue berating someone that has apologized publicly.
He name dropped. He made stupid comments. A lot of people do that. Is it dumb? Extremely. But just because his was caught in writing means we crucify him in front of society? He was pretending to be a tough guy. He's immature. No one in their right mind would argue with this.
And I don't think many people are seeing that their is an apparent problem within the Avenger's business infrastructure itself. The delays in the products even long before Paul came into the scene point to massive failures within the company, outside of Ocean Marketing. Having worked contractual jobs for big and small firms myself, I know how this can be. It is extremely frustrating. It seems to me that there were A LOT of issues with the Avenger that he had no control over. Thousands of people complained. He snapped. It was wrong. Again, no one is going to argue this.
But it seems there are a lot more people making the situation worse than trying to make it better.
If anything, the Amazon reviews for the Avenger were more warranted than the treatment of Paul. He was the PR and he failed horribly. But what do you expect when you set your front-line people for failure?
For example, Comcast does not give their people the tools to solve many problems (YES I'VE ALREADY RESET MY MODEM, AND MY COMPUTER, AND MADE SURE ALL MY CONNECTIONS ARE TIGHT, AND TRIED ANOTHER COMPUTER, AND WENT TO THE LOCAL COMCAST BUILDING TO GET ANOTHER MODEM -- THE PROBLEM IS ON YOUR END). It makes me very upset. I sometimes raise my voice and give them an attitude. They do the same with me. But at the end of the day, I know the people to blame are the executives at the top.
One email = bad day? What of the 20+ others... Those can't all be "bad days" at that point. And he's been doing that for many, many months. The earliest was some time in February 2011 or even prior to that and had continued all the way up till December 2011. So for almost the entire year, it was a "bad day."
He can't get left off so easily when he could potentially do the same thing again and again. It's kind of good in a way, since other companies may think twice before hiring someone who will potentially attack customers.
It just so happens that they left that other guy with just a final solution for the predicaments.
He didn't apologize. The way he worded it was such that he would continue to harass his customers as long as he believed that they were not high ranking members of another corporation. That's all there is.
The company set him up to fail. In this last incidence and the previous ones. That's plain and simple to see. It's not an excuse, but I believe they deserve the negative PR and ratings on Amazon.
I think he got smart and crass with Dave, which was way out of line. But he didn't go off the deep end until Dave's long reply and "welcome to the internet." Hell, I've had worse experiences with customer service (up until that point). And high tier customer service managers at that. Again, I raise my voice and get smart, but at the end of the day, I realize they aren't the ones pulling the strings. So I don't throw threats at them in that way. A lot of times, people get a power trip talking to customer service since they can say and do whatever they want, and they expect them to smile and kiss their ass. Let's be sensible -- they are people too. They have feelings and make mistakes.
For example, one time I got 7 completely unwarranted overdraft fees by Bank of America. You may remember the fiasco when Bank of America (and other big banks) purposely cleared bigger checks and transactions first (after holding smaller ones), so you would occur more overdraft fees. I talked (online chat) to customer service, and talked my way to the top. The person at the top was very rude and said it was my fault, etc. Proceeded to lecture me on how I need to be better at managing my money. I said I wasn't getting off the line until I got to talk to someone with more sense. He said he was the last tier and that he wasn't going to do anything for me. He also said that bank protocols didn't want him to disconnect from me. He could if he wanted, but he wasn't going too because he didn't want his chat logs being pulled automatically due to a manual disconnect on his end. "I work a 12 hour shift," he said, "I got all day to wait you out." So, I called his bluff and left my computer on all day. Checked every few hours and sure enough he was still there. I came back and my internet reset or something and the rest is history. I finally got the overdraft fees refunded though.
Trust me. I thought about saving the chat log and posting it everywhere. And I was way way way way more immature then.
Also, I don't know, but I interpret his apology as "I thought it was empty threats against me by some pissed off customers, so might as well have fun with it; I'm sorry, I should've thought about it and taken it seriously."
Combine his poorly worded "apology" with his continued jerk behavior. He isn't sorry for what he did, he is sorry he got caught. He has a documented history of doing this, a few of those people who's names he dropped came out and say that he's a jerk is business dealings as well. He doesn't seem like he's going to change whatsoever from this ordeal. Also consider the documented domestic violence incident. Face it this guy is just a jerk, this wasn't just a bad day. I'm not one of the people that's been harassing him and I really don't condone that stuff myself. I however don't really feel sympathy for him being that he seems like a genuine asshole. I don't really see why you're going to such great lengths to defend him. From what I've seen no one that knows him or has dealt with him personally has come out and said he isn't such a bad guy, which is understandable from the way he conducts himself.
On December 30 2011 14:02 jacosajh wrote: The company set him up to fail. In this last incidence and the previous ones. That's plain and simple to see. It's not an excuse, but I believe they deserve the negative PR and ratings on Amazon.
I think he got smart and crass with Dave, which was way out of line. But he didn't go off the deep end until Dave's long reply and "welcome to the internet." Hell, I've had worse experiences with customer service (up until that point). And high tier customer service managers at that. Again, I raise my voice and get smart, but at the end of the day, I realize they aren't the ones pulling the strings. So I don't throw threats at them in that way. A lot of times, people get a power trip talking to customer service since they can say and do whatever they want, and they expect them to smile and kiss their ass. Let's be sensible -- they are people too. They have feelings and make mistakes.
For example, one time I got 7 completely unwarranted overdraft fees by Bank of America. You may remember the fiasco when Bank of America (and other big banks) purposely cleared bigger checks and transactions first (after holding smaller ones), so you would occur more overdraft fees. I talked (online chat) to customer service, and talked my way to the top. The person at the top was very rude and said it was my fault, etc. Proceeded to lecture me on how I need to be better at managing my money. I said I wasn't getting off the line until I got to talk to someone with more sense. He said he was the last tier and that he wasn't going to do anything for me. He also said that bank protocols didn't want him to disconnect from me. He could if he wanted, but he wasn't going too because he didn't want his chat logs being pulled automatically due to a manual disconnect on his end. "I work a 12 hour shift," he said, "I got all day to wait you out." So, I called his bluff and left my computer on all day. Checked every few hours and sure enough he was still there. I came back and my internet reset or something and the rest is history. I finally got the overdraft fees refunded though.
Trust me. I thought about saving the chat log and posting it everywhere. And I was way way way way more immature then.
Why didn't you?
Why let a terrible company ream you out like that? That's not how you treat your customers. You should've changed banks and made it public. I don't understand why it's immature to hold your thoughts in or hide the way others are mistreating you. It's self destructive and it sets up that company/employee to abuse another customer the same way they did to you.
BoA has one of the worst service and customer satisfaction records of any major company, and certainly of all the banks. I absolutely refuse to have an account with them. When a company treats their customers like shit, they deserve to go out of business. Somebody else will do the job better and with a smile.
Why are you protecting someone that's mistreating you? Have some self respect about it. It's like some bizarre corporate Stockholm syndrome. And how on earth is the company going to improve if customers are afraid or passive about that type of information?
I got it done anyways. And enough people did say something to make BoA and other big banks stop doing that. From Federal order.
I didn't feel the need to get some customer service rep who probably gets pressure from upper management to uphold their greedy decisions in trouble. This happens all of the time. Remember when that guy from America Online? This is how you set up your customer service reps to fail. Place some highly unrealistic goals and tell them they will get points docked and some metrics will show they are ineffective, etc. (a la, T-Mobile regional customer service center where some of my friends work). Just so executives can pad their pocket.
The company apologizes when its brought to light, but are they really sorry? No. Just like the maker of the Avengers. He's trying to distance himself only because he knows its negative publicity for his product. But he knows a lot of it is HIS fault. At the end of the day, I'm not going to make some customer service rep's life a living hell just because they were doing their job. And the company keeps doing it anyways. There are better ways to deal with the situation.
While I'm not condoning what he's doing in that link... there simply isn't enough information there. If it really is part of his contract, etc. etc. there's no way around it. In business, that's just another day in the office. It's douchy, but that is how a lot of people make their living (a good one at that). So if he's legally / technically owed money because the company owner didn't protect himself from situations like this, it's not extortion because it's not illegal.
There is a direct difference. How I feel about Paul (that he's a stupid childish douchebag) has no bearing on the technicalities of the issue. Of course the media is going to commingle the facts and mob mentality against him to make the story all that much more touching.
At this point, I'm not even concentrating so much on what Paul deserves or doesn't deserve. Just that Kotkin does deserve what happened to him as well. He failed his customer service rep / PR and by extension his customers. How easy would it have been for him to say "Hey, listen let's send a mass e-mail saying it'll be late. We're VERY SORRY. It's on its way. But we're going to give everyone 25% off."
It is one thing to go after money he is legally owed. It is another to not relinquish control after he's been canned. If he wants his money, fine go through the courts. Holding their accounts hostage and making demands (he isn't even demanding money he's owed according to the story, but demanding a NEW contract with financial benefits for himself) is extortion. Even if it ends up not technically being illegal it is still a scummy thing to do. This guy is a COMPLETE dirtbag. Of course we're going to comingle everything we've heard about him and we haven't heard a damn thing that points to having a shred of decency about him. Like I said earlier, I don't really condone the barrage of harrasment coming his way, but this guy isn't doing anything that is going to make it stop.
EPT
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