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Let me preface this post/rant by saying I have an extensive history with BW: I started playing it 1998, obtained roughly B- level on iCCup, and started playing SC2 at the release.
Throughout the time that SC2 has been out, I've noticed that the scene feels literally nothing like the Brood War one did. This idea in itself is neither positive nor negative, but it's the difference between the two scenes that ends up being negative.
I've been considering why the SC2 scene feels different, and I've realized it's because almost everyone that you hear from is completely immature. Having a BW background, I am overwhelmed by the sense of entitlement that a lot of SC2 fans seem to have. In the early 2000's, it was HUGE to get a replay or a VOD of a professional game. I remember very distinctly a ridiculously close game between Boxer and ZergBoy (according to the in-game names) on Lost Temple...I watched that game religiously with my friends for days, perhaps weeks, until another new, exciting replay came out. I didn't know a lot about the game or how to play well, but I was passionate about learning and I was happy to have anything that I could find. Now, even in Brood War, there are free streams going constantly, VODs all over YouTube, and thousands of downloadable replays. The community has truly been spoiled by the wealth of entertainment, but many take this for granted. (This is also a huge factor in why I feel there are still BW elitists, but that's a completely different idea that I won't jump into.)
Think about a tournament like DreamHack. Sure, some people buy the premium packages, and they make a lot of money from sponsorship deals, but they don't HAVE to provide a free stream. They do it to promote eSports, since a lot of people wouldn't watch if they didn't. Of course, it works out both ways because of advertising revenue, but waiting a few moments between each match is a ridiculously small price to pay for the outrageous amount of games that are played and the history that is made with each tournament.
The whole thing with Naniwa, especially the comments on GOMTV...forgive me, but it's fucking pathetic. Here we are as a community, growing faster than anyone can imagine, and there are people defending a player who threw a game on a huge stage more blatantly than I previously had believed to be possible. Sure, there's no set rule in place for not doing this, but it's about respect. It's terribly immature to say, "Well, I don't have anything to gain from this game, so I'm not going to play." This can of worms has been open all day and there's not much left to regurgitate, but this is all tied together.
It is my firm belief that Starcraft is not a sport; it's a computer game. However, that doesn't mean it doesn't take a lot of skill and dedication to excel at the game. In modern times, people are more accepting of this, and the lack of the attachment of the word "sport" to the game you play doesn't necessarily mean that nobody will take it seriously. Think about your parents; half of them probably don't even know how to use a computer efficiently. That's going to be you in 20 years (or less!), and you'll probably have similar beliefs to what you do now in regards to what is competitive and what is not. With that as a premise, why would anyone in his/her right mind condone, if not defend (!), the act of forfeiting a game simply because no money was on the line? Even in SC2's short history, we've seen players forfeit their tournament spots simply because they considered throwing games. I completely support GOM in their denial of Naniwa's Code S spot simply out of respect for the integrity of the game. To be honest, I couldn't give less of a fuck about Naniwa because I think he's a piece of garbage (especially after the events of the past 36 hours), but really all that means to me is that it's not a respected member of the community in my eyes doing it. I'd be shocked if Boxer or Nestea did the same thing...but neither Lim Jae-Duck or Lim Yo Hwan would ever consider doing it because of their respect for the game and its potential history.
This sense of entitlement garbage has to stop. You come home from school, work, whatever, and you have dozens of free games (possibly even professional-grade commentary) available for you to watch and analyze as deeply as you'd like, but many of us choose to complain about it? It's simply illogical, if not downright stupid; YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO ANYTHING. Have a little respect for the history that Blizzard games have made for themselves and the history that can be made with Starcraft II. The game is still very young, and has many glorious years ahead of it...don't be part of the group that complains constantly and tarnishes the reputation.
I have no idea what to expect in response to this post because I clearly just don't understand the community any more, but hopefully some people understand and support where I'm coming from. Maybe I'm just getting old (I'm 21 -_-).
FuRRyChoBo
  
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good blog post!
Completely agree!
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This blog is the truth.
I completely agree.
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I agree I completely. I remember when replays came out, and watching replays of "pros" over and over again. I remember when Replay With Audio came out and watching those over and over again and watching koreans streams at 4am that were all in korean..... People today don't seem to realize how amazing the content is that it provided to them. I dunno what to say, I'm glad esports is growing.
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Well met. I agree to what you say. Your guess about elitists is right as well, at least that's what I think too.
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Nice post, couldn't agree more. I've always felt like all the content helps everyone has players more but hurts us as a community more, if that makes any sense.
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Yeah Starcraft 2 is TOTALLY becoming too mainstream, i will have to move on to playing competetive dwarf fortress(WITH NO F***ING GRAPHIC MODS) cause the community there is so much more mature and original.
On a more serious note, this blog is full of crap. What do you mean we are not entitled to anything? Free streams? Do you realize that the companies providing us the streams are making money? BW scene never picked up in foreign countries cause 1) the game was too hard 2) it was butt ugly. Sure you had the likes of you who were "hc" enough to watch and play starcraft instead of Warcraft 3 or CS 1.5(6), but majority of foreign scene was still focused on those 2 games rather than BW. You didn't get replays, cause most of them were played in Korea and as we all know they don't really give a shit about foreigners, atleast when it comes to BW. Wc3 had plenty of replays available, as did CS(demos). What comes to "complaining", well someone has to set the bar somewhere. Dreamhack set it pretty high with their free stream quality and GOMTV's 360p is laughable in comparison.
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I just turned 23 and I'm considering becoming a pro lurker here because of all the nani-defending going on. I don't feel old yet but I probably will in 2 years. It's really a testament to the growth of SC2 that this event hasn't stagnated it for a loooong time, which could have happened 10 years ago. I enjoy watching both games, but it's the SPL live report threads that keep me coming back to TL recently. The immaturity aspect of some parts of the SC2 scene is what's making me pay more attention to BW again.
It's totally worth staying up late or waking up in the middle of the night to watch the games. It's the spirit that matters, and the BW spirit has stayed pure for years. I'm not saying BW is better, but there's just an extra layer of awe that is involved when you're watching something that is held sacred to so many people.
This makes me feel like the SC2 scene needs a neo-Boxer to create this same atmosphere that BW has held onto for so long. There's something to be said for legends, especially when they act as ambassadors of the game and of life, and it's great that Boxer is still in the SC scene, but he's really the ambassador of BW. His importance feels a bit foreign sometimes. I think HuK is coming close but he's not exactly a bonjwa yet.
SC2 needs a champion, and that person needs to take the reigns and show some charisma and be an ambassador. SC2 needs someone like that who is SO respected by the community that, like swearing in front of your grandma, being immature or doing something as immature as what naniwa did would make them so embarrassed and depressed that it just wouldn't be a possibility. Until that person appears the attitude will not change.
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Well of course there is an increase in immaturity, there are a lot of new players in the SC world.
Mentality has changed since BW, its no suprise really. However, I don't really have a say in this because I only played my first game of BW at like 2009 so im unfamiliar in the subject.
That Naniwa incident was very clearly disappointing and an immature action, but he was also in a very moody status because of his previous games. So lets give him a bit of mercy, hmm? Again I don't know if someone was also in Naniwa's shoes before his last match (There probably was) :/
I also want to mention a lot of the gaming community is immature, to be honest the starcraft community is the most mature community I have been to. Look at a MOBA forum like HoN or LoL; constant complaints and attacks towards the developers of the games. I realize this is also existant in the blizzard forums but it is a lot worse at these other sites.
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On December 15 2011 20:03 Kermine wrote:
Yeah Starcraft 2 is TOTALLY becoming too mainstream, i will have to move on to playing competetive dwarf fortress(WITH NO F***ING GRAPHIC MODS) cause the community there is so much more mature and original.
On a more serious note, this blog is full of crap. What do you mean we are not entitled to anything? Free streams? Do you realize that the companies providing us the streams are making money? BW scene never picked up in foreign countries cause 1) the game was too hard 2) it was butt ugly. Sure you had the likes of you who were "hc" enough to watch and play starcraft instead of Warcraft 3 or CS 1.5(6), but majority of foreign scene was still focused on those 2 games rather than BW. You didn't get replays, cause most of them were played in Korea and as we all know they don't really give a shit about foreigners, atleast when it comes to BW. Wc3 had plenty of replays available, as did CS(demos). What comes to "complaining", well someone has to set the bar somewhere. Dreamhack set it pretty high with their free stream quality and GOMTV's 360p is laughable in comparison.
Your shitty post exemplifies what the OP is talking about beautifully. The juxtaposition with hp.Shell's optimistic post stating that, although he loves BW, he's optimistic about SC2 helps that, too.
You think teamliquid just appeared out of thin fucking air? Do you really believe it's a given that the saturation of live, high quality game streams here was just something bound to fucking happen? Do you really look at WC3 now and say "Wow, this looks wayyyyy better than Brood War!"? Or was it really the "butt ugly" (fuck you) graphics that dissuaded foreign audiences, rather than any of countless other possible reasons for the weak foreign SC scene?
FYI, Kermine, I'm pretty sure I hate you. Spare me the canned memetic "cool story bro" or whatever other shit post you come up with in response. It's clear you're the type to take everything as it is now for granted, and your bullshit attitude ensures that no one will take you seriously here.
I assume you're also ugly.
Thanks for providing a perfect example. I've been wanting to post for about an hour now, but couldn't come up with anything.
A bit more on-topic...eh, I agree, more or less. I guess that may or may not be obvious by now.
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just to remember the OP of his glorious "mature" BW days. Go look up the WCG 2007 and tell me how mature Storks behaviour was there in the group stages. Or Saviours match fixing. Really you should not throw stones when you sit in a glass house
there will always be immature people but BW was hardly more "mature" it was simply a very small community compared to what TL is today. And with the increase in people there is bound to be an increase in idiots and those tend to scream the loudest.
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On December 15 2011 20:03 Kermine wrote:
1) the game was too hard 2) it was butt ugly.
This is the kind of person who ruins the image of a whole community.
Way to go SC2 fanboy. Make the image of the SC2 community even worse, because you simply don't care about it apparently.
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I agree with you completely FuRRyChoBo. I loved BW for many reasons, the community being one of the most important ones. But I barely even play SC2 anymore, the immaturity of the community is just appalling. Maybe I'm just getting old too ( Im 21 too ).
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On December 15 2011 21:17 MinusPlus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 20:03 Kermine wrote:
Yeah Starcraft 2 is TOTALLY becoming too mainstream, i will have to move on to playing competetive dwarf fortress(WITH NO F***ING GRAPHIC MODS) cause the community there is so much more mature and original.
On a more serious note, this blog is full of crap. What do you mean we are not entitled to anything? Free streams? Do you realize that the companies providing us the streams are making money? BW scene never picked up in foreign countries cause 1) the game was too hard 2) it was butt ugly. Sure you had the likes of you who were "hc" enough to watch and play starcraft instead of Warcraft 3 or CS 1.5(6), but majority of foreign scene was still focused on those 2 games rather than BW. You didn't get replays, cause most of them were played in Korea and as we all know they don't really give a shit about foreigners, atleast when it comes to BW. Wc3 had plenty of replays available, as did CS(demos). What comes to "complaining", well someone has to set the bar somewhere. Dreamhack set it pretty high with their free stream quality and GOMTV's 360p is laughable in comparison. Your shitty post exemplifies what the OP is talking about beautifully. The juxtaposition with hp.Shell's optimistic post stating that, although he loves BW, he's optimistic about SC2 helps that, too. You think teamliquid just appeared out of thin fucking air? Do you really believe it's a given that the saturation of live, high quality game streams here was just something bound to fucking happen? Do you really look at WC3 now and say "Wow, this looks wayyyyy better than Brood War!"? Or was it really the "butt ugly" (fuck you) graphics that dissuaded foreign audiences, rather than any of countless other possible reasons for the weak foreign SC scene? FYI, Kermine, I'm pretty sure I hate you. Spare me the canned memetic "cool story bro" or whatever other shit post you come up with in response. It's clear you're the type to take everything as it is now for granted, and your bullshit attitude ensures that no one will take you seriously here. I assume you're also ugly. Thanks for providing a perfect example. I've been wanting to post for about an hour now, but couldn't come up with anything. A bit more on-topic...eh, I agree, more or less. I guess that may or may not be obvious by now. Personal attacks? Stay classy! SC:BW, aged incredibly badly. Hell, just look at C&C: Tiberian sun. It was released 1 year later than BW and it looked SO much better. I admit i never really played starcraft seriously, only ever doing some custom maps etc, but even back then i thought starcraft looked...crude. Also the game mechanics at the time were not really up to RTS standards. Original C&C had automated resource gathering mechanics in place in 1995! If you think TL.net is some god given gift to starcraft community, you are wrong. I'm sorry but for every game, there is BOUND to be some place where "everything" is gathered. If it wasn't TL, it'd be someplace else. I do however see where you are coming from. The attitude on TL seems to be that whenever it comes to anything starcraft, criticism is a taboo.
This is the kind of person who ruins the image of a whole community.
Way to go SC2 fanboy. Make the image of the SC2 community even worse, because you simply don't care about it apparently. Sure is sheep in here.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 15 2011 20:03 Kermine wrote:
Yeah Starcraft 2 is TOTALLY becoming too mainstream, i will have to move on to playing competetive dwarf fortress(WITH NO F***ING GRAPHIC MODS) cause the community there is so much more mature and original.
On a more serious note, this blog is full of crap. What do you mean we are not entitled to anything? Free streams? Do you realize that the companies providing us the streams are making money? BW scene never picked up in foreign countries cause 1) the game was too hard 2) it was butt ugly. Sure you had the likes of you who were "hc" enough to watch and play starcraft instead of Warcraft 3 or CS 1.5(6), but majority of foreign scene was still focused on those 2 games rather than BW. You didn't get replays, cause most of them were played in Korea and as we all know they don't really give a shit about foreigners, atleast when it comes to BW. Wc3 had plenty of replays available, as did CS(demos). What comes to "complaining", well someone has to set the bar somewhere. Dreamhack set it pretty high with their free stream quality and GOMTV's 360p is laughable in comparison.
Kermine, I'm not even going to be polite with you. I actually think this whole dumpster of a post deserves a warning. Gross. You really don't know what you have, paired with a large lack of appreciation. Your so ignorant towards the past and how what you see everyday is a product of gaming evolution.
But back on topic from OP. I as well am fortunate to live through the early days of BW up until now. Witnessing the many era's of the game: the original bnet ladder system when it was actually meaningful, the budding korean community, and then a few years down the line WGT and it's revolutionary (at the time) half-automated website reporting function. Soon after came PGT and it's automated game creation bot done through whispering and then ICCup and it's anti-hack launcher.
Not to mention the programs like BWchart, Penguinplug, etc. Hell, when that patch came introducing everyone to the replay function, it's quite an understatement to say that the community was flabbergasted. All this evolving from a game where we considered nothing to be enough. That is what SCII spawns from, and it's sad to see the new kids on the block not realize where their "subpar laughable 360p live broadcast with commentary" stream came from.
Thank you Kermine for fitting that stereotype perfectly. You truly are the new age of immaturity. SC2 is young and so are you. Did you ever wonder why so many "BW elitists" share this same opinion, despite many not knowing eachother? Did we band together to form a cult because we are butthurt about a new game taking over? All of it: no, we all love SCII (and for us, BW as well). But you have to realize where some of the older members of the community come from, and as such, you don't understand (partially because of a narrow-mind, the other half; lack of experience). Great post OP.
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I just don't understand how you can't realize that:
- The BW scene is much older,
- BW players are much older than SC2 players,
- BW is a phenomenon of the past and is thus a closed elite that will die eventually (just like SC2 in some time).
- Our parents are a different generation that has seen the birth and spread of personal computers (we will NOT be in the same situation as our generation is bound to that technology). We will all eventually become oldfags but we won't have the huge difficulties our parents have understanding a small piece of what's going on,
- Everyone bitches about everything all the time, whether it's football, soccer, kitchens, milk, paper, trees, wars or pretty much anything,
- SC is not OMGARELIGION and not having a sacred respect for it will not seem shocking to the average individual.
To me you just sound like an angry fanboy who didn't have much substance to write about in the first place.
People are not immature, people are people. As a French comedian once said, don't take people for fools, but don't forget that they are. However, stating that "people are immature" is forgetting that you're part of that too. Because, well, you've just written a wall of text over what I consider pure, useless, unimportant drama, displaying little self-control and hinsight yourself.
Edit: also lol at college kids feeling old.
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Im just really fed up of all the Herp-Derp, cool story bro, trolling, umadbro bullshit that everyone keeps throwing around. It's so hard to have a reasonable discussion anymore!
Grow the hell up already. Our future is going to shit, and I'm not even talking about the SC2 Community, I'm talking about life in general. Dunno about what it's like in other countries, but I've noticed that over the years the new generation is getting worse and worse. It's scary to think that these people will be responsible with taking care of us when we're elderly lol
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On December 16 2011 00:05 AndyGB4 wrote:
Im just really fed up of all the Herp-Derp, cool story bro, trolling, umadbro bullshit that everyone keeps throwing around. It's so hard to have a reasonable discussion anymore!
Grow the hell up already. Our future is going to shit, and I'm not even talking about the SC2 Community, I'm talking about life in general. Dunno about what it's like in other countries, but I've noticed that over the years the new generation is getting worse and worse. It's scary to think that these people will be responsible with taking care of us when we're elderly lol
My god how can you not realize that this is the result of growing up and that the next generation is NOT exceptionally bad. Or maybe we're so special that we're going to give birth to a generation of doom?
I mean how can you think that it is more logical and acceptable to think that this is an exception in milleniums of human history than to think we are simply getting older?
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On December 15 2011 23:47 Kukaracha wrote:
I just don't understand how you can't realize that:
- The BW scene is much older,
- BW players are much older than SC2 players,
- BW is a phenomenon of the past and is thus a closed elite that will die eventually (just like SC2 in some time).
- Our parents are a different generation that has seen the birth and spread of personal computers (we will NOT be in the same situation as our generation is bound to that technology). We will all eventually become oldfags but we won't have the huge difficulties our parents have understanding a small piece of what's going on,
- Everyone bitches about everything all the time, whether it's football, soccer, kitchens, milk, paper, trees, wars or pretty much anything,
- SC is not OMGARELIGION and not having a sacred respect for it will not seem shocking to the average individual.
To me you just sound like an angry fanboy who didn't have much substance to write about in the first place.
People are not immature, people are people. As a French comedian once said, don't take people for fools, but don't forget that they are. However, stating that "people are immature" is forgetting that you're part of that too. Because, well, you've just written a wall of text over what I consider pure, useless, unimportant drama, displaying little self-control and hinsight yourself.
Edit: also lol at college kids feeling old.
BW never quite existed outside Korea and is still very well alive over there like it always was. Now chances are unless sc2 is picked up by OGN it won't grow much beyond what it is today, wich is quite sad.
I really don't see the massive western lans becoming anything but bigger and bigger nerd magnets.
Most of people in Korea that enjoyed Starcraft (but hardcore fans) weren't nerds but common folks.
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On December 16 2011 00:25 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 00:05 AndyGB4 wrote:
Im just really fed up of all the Herp-Derp, cool story bro, trolling, umadbro bullshit that everyone keeps throwing around. It's so hard to have a reasonable discussion anymore!
Grow the hell up already. Our future is going to shit, and I'm not even talking about the SC2 Community, I'm talking about life in general. Dunno about what it's like in other countries, but I've noticed that over the years the new generation is getting worse and worse. It's scary to think that these people will be responsible with taking care of us when we're elderly lol My god how can you not realize that this is the result of growing up and that the next generation is NOT exceptionally bad. Or maybe we're so special that we're going to give birth to a generation of doom? I mean how can you think that it is more logical and acceptable to think that this is an exception in milleniums of human history than to think we are simply getting older?
Dude my wife's a teacher, trust me, the new generations are REALLY bad.
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