EPTWhy is this an advantage of mech only?
Day9's Request for TvP Mech games - Page 2
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Emporio
United States3069 Posts
Why is this an advantage of mech only? | ||
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sh4w
United States713 Posts
It was pretty fun until they catch on to what your doing and start making stalkers and immortals. Then they would just a-move into my tank line. The hellions can't hold off the immortals long enough for the tanks to deal with them. | ||
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sh4w
United States713 Posts
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Deleted User 47542
1484 Posts
Because when you play bio you can't mineral dump as mmm+ghost is much more mineral intensive and they build faster, and your main production facility cost no gas. When meching the only fast building mineral unit you build are hellions and generally you just send packs of them everywhere to harass while building gas units, cc's and turrets. If you ever play mech you will always have a mineral excess in the thousands because you can't support unit production and upgrades with your limited amount of gas. On December 07 2011 22:27 sh4w wrote: I played a few as this thread piqued my curiosity. It was pretty fun until they catch on to what your doing and start making stalkers and immortals. Then they would just a-move into my tank line. The hellions can't hold off the immortals long enough for the tanks to deal with them. Immortals are good against tanks in small to medium numbers, once the tank count gets high enough they actually counter immortals. EMP'ed immortals die instantly. Blink stalkers make it impossible to mech on maps where blink can go right into main and the third is far away(metalopolis). | ||
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Tppz!
Germany1449 Posts
On December 07 2011 21:08 superbabosheki wrote: Always make sure sure sure sure that you have banshees mixed in. Without banshees, immortal collosus absolutely wrecks mech T_T I've had tosses break 32 tanks+hellion/thors mixed in, made me a sad panda. Anyways, Protoss has no true answer to terran air because vikings are so strong and stalkers take full dmg from tanks. If you dont build Vikings or Ghosts you are lost. Thats just normal. Banshees arent an option for Lategame. Though noone meching terran needs thors in TvP. They dont do anything better than any other mech unit. The Antiair isnt useful. Tanking damage aint good cause of feedback and hellions are a lot better at it. And the grounddamage is worse than any other meching unit (you need the splash) | ||
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Deleted User 47542
1484 Posts
On December 07 2011 22:35 Tppz! wrote: If you dont build Vikings or Ghosts you are lost. Thats just normal. Banshees arent an option for Lategame. Though noone meching terran needs thors in TvP. They dont do anything better than any other mech unit. The Antiair isnt useful. Tanking damage aint good cause of feedback and hellions are a lot better at it. And the grounddamage is worse than any other meching unit (you need the splash) A few thors early on is needed to survive allins, at least in my experience, since in that timing a small tank count does no dmg to zealots(35 a shot), and mass repair is always good. Thor ground dps is unrated, but I agree they are become pretty bad lategame. Vikings are obviously a staple unit that counters all protoss air and collosus, banshees are great vs a robo heavy player. Obviously ghosts are good too but there's no way you can afford them and maintain a high army count+upgrades until later on in the game, a bit after you secure your third. | ||
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Osmoses
Sweden5302 Posts
It didn't work out. | ||
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Provocateur
Sweden1665 Posts
On December 07 2011 20:39 Tppz! wrote: stalker, sentry, colossus, immortal, warp prism, phoenix, void ray, carrier, interceptor, mothership, probe, observer so everything but zealot and the templar tech (dt, ht, archon). i chose terran cause of tanks too ^.^ @guy with that awesome icon from france: after the season change some balance changes happened: + Show Spoiler + 1.4.0 Immortal Attack range increased from 5 to 6. Warp Prism Shields increased from 40 to 100. Hellion Infernal Pre-Igniter damage upgrade decreased from 10 to 5. 1.4.2 Forge The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 1 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 200/200 The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 2 has been decreased to 225/225, down from 300/300 The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 3 has been decreased to 300/300, down from 400/400 The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175 The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250 The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175 The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250 Ghost EMP radius has been decreased from 2 to 1.5 I think every of those was a huge nerf to mech in tvp. especially emp and hellion nerf. (the warpprism just made them use it) maybe i can find an interview of the only successful mech player at pro level (goody) where he states why mech aint useful anymore. i saw one last week but it was in german where he stated, that you cant trade efficiently after the last patches which makes it impossible. sure if the protoss player doesnt know how to react he will loose anyways. Here's an interview from dreamhack with goody where he says that mech isn't as viable anymore due to the blue flame nerf: Good luck with your mech mission, just be wary of the blink stalkers, they are the main thing that's been keeping me from meching any longer. If protoss scouts my mech opening and goes for really fast blink there are so many ways to abuse the immobility of tanks. | ||
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Chr15t
Denmark1103 Posts
On December 07 2011 21:30 Barburas wrote: Didn't fxoasd do a mech build which beat hero recently in the GSL? Game 2 on Bel Shir beach if I'm not misremembering. The game you are referring to, was a bio-mech build. It was Thors (like 12-14 of them), marines (i would say 40+ of them) 3 banshees, 1 raven and 6-8 vikings. which isnt really mech™, but interesting no less, the type of mech people are talking about is tank based. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On December 07 2011 19:41 Cyro wrote: Air terran is kinda gimmicky and vunerable to templar, i dont think it is viable as a game style, whereas mech has some potential How is air any more gimmicky than any other build? And everything in the terran army is vulnerable to HTs - not just feedback, but storms as well. Mech is actually really bad against storms, because chargelots absorb the first tank volleys and then the HTs are in range to do guaranteed full damage on the tanks. And hellions don't last under storms either. I really think a stable, 2/3 air 1/3 ground army split is infinitely better than bio-mech or straight up mech. The key is figuring out a build that lets you get to this point safely while keeping pressure on the protoss player I've been watching Avilo's stream a bit, and if he manages to get up to a significant number of BCs, nothing can really touch him. And mass banshee harass midgame is actually very effective, even when HTs are out. I've come back from really difficult situations, just because banshees in critical mass kills everything on the ground so quickly. Banshees are a great tool for game long harassment, much better than medivacs, imo. On December 07 2011 19:48 sSoda wrote: The point isn't to use absolute pure mech, it is to not use standard marine/marauder/medivac compositions. At least, that is what I think. So marine/thor/banshee seems like it is worth mention, especially since I consider starport tech also a part of mech. You lose all the mobility of a bio army and you have to split upgrade paths in that case. The reason why people want to play as pure mech as possible is too keep the upgrades streamlined. Just look at Jjakji's Eye of the Storm game vs Oz. He opened with a ton of tanks and marines and did a great bunker contain against Oz. He preemptively switched to bio as charge finished, because he knew that the contain and the tanks couldn't deal with chargelots. The contain instantly evaporated, it really underlines why mech is so bad in tvp. Luckily Jjakji had done enough damage and gained enough of an advantage at that point, so he won the game anyway. On December 07 2011 20:32 sixnoluv wrote: I think it will be interesting to see how successful mech can be in T v P. I feel like it has been a LONG time since I have seen T v P mech in any pro games. It needs to be done again since there has been buffs and nerfs that have happened over the past few months. If your lucky you might run into TT1, he likes to a-click into a full siege line and lose his entire army=) what buffs/nerfs have supposedly been made to the game to make mech more viable? If anything it's the opposite (hellion nerf, immortal range) | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
I havnt played against it enough to go into much detail but in general i just dont see it working because of AOE damage and no way to deny expansions and/or templar, it seems to be rolled over without competition when protoss plays with that style | ||
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Tortious_Tortoise
United States944 Posts
My solution was to begin with a 2-rax reactor-first pressure, and expand behind it. It's not too terribly difficult to transition out of, and it's a great way to put pressure on your opponent, allowing you to tech and expand while maintaining a reasonably sized army. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On December 08 2011 00:56 Cyro wrote: Banshees get 1shot by feedback and if you stack them, you will loose your entire army to 1-2 storms, if you dont stack them, they are really not that good in combat. If you play air you are far more vunerable to storms than if you were to run with marine/marauder without any units to spot or any ghosts at like the half hour mark, your entire army is so low health. I havnt seen an air build work vs a decent protoss just because your entire army isnt really that good if it doesnt stack (cant prevent toss expanding almost at will) and if you do stack and try to micro banshees around etc you will just loose them all to one AOE shot, assuming you make it that far into the game without dieing to one of like 10 early-midgame pressure builds because you are committing to air. I havnt played against it enough to go into much detail but in general i just dont see it working because of AOE damage and no way to deny expansions and/or templar, it seems to be rolled over without competition when protoss plays with that style if you leave cloak on, feedback doesn't do anything against banshees. In fact, I've started getting a lot of good trades with protoss players using only a bunch of HTs for defense, because I've stopped running away at the mere sight of the HTs. They feedback, I take like 20 damage and then I kill all their costly HTs and then snipe some pylons or tech, and then I fly to a safe spot on the map and repair, while harassing with a fresh set of banshees somewhere else. If you're playing air you should be bunkering up at certain positions to stop counterattacks, not leaving your marines out in the open, and you should be spending your excess resources on PFs (and turrets if the protoss is getting air units) Storm doesn't do anything against bunkers and PFs. Ideally you should only be doing the big army vs army fights around these bunkers and PFs, where it's likely that the random turrets will kill off observers and your banshees can now clean up. It's this part of the air style that makes it not gimmicky - terran's static defenses are really good. The reason why air tvp isn't as bad as you think it is - and can be viable in the right hands - is that air circumvents most of the protoss army's power units and banshees beat stalkers in a straight up fight. This means blink stalker harass isn't that effective. Chargelots are reasonably trivial against bunkers with PFs and depots around them, colossi are free kills and microing against storm and archons isn't that hard. The biggest problem with air terran is finding a way to effectively deal with protoss air, without ending up in a situation where you now have 6+ starports that you no longer can use. | ||
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Chr15t
Denmark1103 Posts
On December 08 2011 01:10 mbr2321 wrote: Here's the problem I've encountered with trying mech compositions against Protoss: my early game is way too vulnerable to early-game pressure/allins from Protoss. My solution was to begin with a 2-rax reactor-first pressure, and expand behind it. It's not too terribly difficult to transition out of, and it's a great way to put pressure on your opponent, allowing you to tech and expand while maintaining a reasonably sized army. Wow thats exactly what i have been doing - down to the T ;O | ||
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ReaperStackS
Netherlands41 Posts
so i played it more like zerg, defensively until i got the tech. so a fast exp was very helpful. because the main problem is the build up time of a mech army and vs toss its even harder to build it up Blink stalkers would crush this banshee hellion opening... still it might be good vs a fast robo or stargate. using your marines and bunkers to defend. A raven was very helpful using this build, the point defense drone will give u a free getaway. i tried this build for a week and since then i never stray from bio in a tvp way to hard going mech or it could be my strat | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
btw if at all just send day9 1-2 replays hes not gonna look through all of them o.o | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
On December 08 2011 01:10 mbr2321 wrote: Here's the problem I've encountered with trying mech compositions against Protoss: my early game is way too vulnerable to early-game pressure/allins from Protoss. My solution was to begin with a 2-rax reactor-first pressure, and expand behind it. It's not too terribly difficult to transition out of, and it's a great way to put pressure on your opponent, allowing you to tech and expand while maintaining a reasonably sized army. The biggest problem I see with opening 2 rax into mech is that it does actually transition poorly. I'm assuming this is the 1 gas tech lab reactor expand, where you get concussive shells. Sure it gives you a reactor and tech lab, but it reaaally delays your expansion and factory. The basic idea of transitioning to mech, is to have the most slim defense possible so you can get your factories started the fastest. Also how are these 2 barracks integrating with your overall strategy? Do you use them as like spotters later on, or maybe even putting them in front of the tanks to slow the zealots? Or perhaps even ghosts. | ||
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sSoda
United States95 Posts
On December 08 2011 03:13 KawaiiRice wrote: GL Soda, you'll probably quit the game before the week is over or you'll lose your sanity. btw if at all just send day9 1-2 replays hes not gonna look through all of them o.o This is actually a good point. Maybe just send him the best replays or a variety of replays. But I'll still be putting together a replay pack of all the games if anyone wants to watch them. | ||
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Philymaniz
United States177 Posts
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