|
Last night I was watching Anna Prosser play SC2. She just recently was promoted to silver, and her stream is a lot of fun. Something I observed when new people entered the stream was a lot of reactions like: "omg why are mineralz so high? why is she so bad? why hasn't someone in the house coached her?"
It's true-- there were plenty of games where she had about 10 drones mining at one base, or forgot to mine more than one gas when building mutas, forgot to creep spread, or didn't know that corruptors are >>>>>>>>> better than mutalisks vs battlecruises. But that's ok; I personally found it really refreshing to watching someone playing for fun and learning through the process of playing (and then finding out advise in the chat afterwards).
This also led me to consider that TL can really have a discouraging affect on players, especially people like Anna. A lot of people come here searching for ways to improve (Why did I lose to these BCs after I made 40 mutas?!). That's great and TL is certainly a place that can offer that.
BUT I think sometimes people who enter into the environment of TL can be caught up in the drive for tangible improvement, and maybe that causes more harm than good in some ways. There are lots of frustration blogs and threads that get posted-- I am stuck in ____ league and I'm so sick of this game and hate losing and hate being bad at it, and I just want to quit cause I'm scared of ladder, etcetcetc.
I think TL directly feeds into this anxiety in many ways. I think players spending time here start to develop a feeling that if they aren't getting better-- moving up the ladder, higher w/l ratio, winning small online tournaments, using the latest and greatest build of the week-- there is something wrong with them. But I don't think there really is. If you want to improve for yourself, and you aren't meeting your goals, then that's something to be fixed. But dicking around in teamgames is a perfectly valid way to experience SC2, and it's a lot of fun! Going 2-port banshees every game cause you like the sound cloak makes, and you like microing, and are ADHD and hate long games-- that's fine too.
I don't think TL needs to change. The focus of this community revolves around improvement and competition. But I think people should remind themselves that TL is isolated from a whole other way of experiencing the game of SC2. If you are discouraged, take a step back from trying to find a solution in the strategy forum, from beating yourself up for your less than perfect macro, comparing yourself to pro players, and feeling your experience isn't legitimate enough until you hit (grand)masters. Find a way to play for fun. + Show Spoiler +People who say the only way to have fun is winning-- I really think that's a legit personal issue. It may be the way you have the most fun, but if you can never experience fun in something without 'winning'-- GET HELP. 
Gonna play some random 3v3s and only build carriers. Come chill if you want. :D http://www.twitch.tv/hotred_streak
 
|
I think the real problem here is TL's affect on spelling.
|
I don't think TL makes newer players anxious lol.
TL doesn't force new players to read the strategy section or try to improve, they can come here if they want to improve their play or they can do whatever the fuck they want and make carriers. No one's gonna stop them, it's their game. I don't really understand your point... unless you just made it to promote your stream?o_O
|
On December 02 2011 16:44 GenesisX wrote:
I think the real problem here is TL's affect on spelling.
Beat me to it. Affect is the verb, effect is the noun.
|
red justice, as is obvious from the "affect" posts people on the internet just like to pont out flaws because they need to feel touGH. If it wasn't minerals being too high it would be something else. It isn't a big deal, its the internet and its e z
yes i know i spelled point wrong e Z
|
I know affect is a verb I just thinking of it like-- TL affects player anxiety and didn't notice I treated it possessively as an object instead of a verb when I made the title. It's late. 
|
I always thought there were a ton of people on TL who barely play (and not give a shit about their skill level) but only read/watch.
The feeling you are portraying is definitely not something we want to encourage, and it is also not something that I notice myself to be an issue. I've always felt TL offers something for everyone. For those who want to eagerly learn, and those who just want to relax and watch.
|
I think you answer your own question. TL is a community that revolves around competitive playing, so its only natural that people think winning is the primary focus of the game. For your issue I'd say there are 2 reasons why people make those comments. The first is that they're assholes. The second is that people sort of view the game through a skewed perspective. For example as a platinum player I think I'm a lot better than I really am. So when I see a platinum player floating tons of minerals, it seems out of the ordinary.
|
We have this tendency to be extremely negative, and it leaves a deep impression on how you play because TL is a big hub for SC2.
|
United States13896 Posts
competitive player + competitive environment = more stress ("at least I know how to improve")
noncompetitive player + competitive environment = no stress
noncompetitive player + noncompetitive environment = no stress
competitive player + noncompetitive environment = most stress ("fuck I don't even know how to get better" -> googles, finds TL -> less stress)
edit: stream chat is stream chat ... if you decide to care about what is said there it'll drive you insane if you have any more than a few hundred viewers tuning in. and it is a different beast than TL.
|
Whenever you read the chat during a coaching session, you always see this.
"wtf this guy is plat? he's so bad"
"wow im in silver and i could beat him"
"goddamn it how am i in the same league as this guy"
"no way this dude is higher than gold his macro is so bad"
"how the hell does this get you to plat? and im in gold and i would rape him"
People just think that they're hot stuff and look down on others to compensate for what the ladder tells them, contrary to their own self-image. It's really annoying, especially when people start bitching about MMR and Blizzard Ladder and how it doesn't let them show their "true skill". I think this is just what people do, and there's nothing you can do about it.
|
@Nazgul:
I was just thinking about why people say they are so unhappy about something and keep doing it. (I'm sure you've seen the threads and blogs.) All around TL you see people tracking their progress to ___ league, keeping ladder update blogs, discussing the merits of different strategies and BOs etc. I came to TL at first it because I was excited to discover a community, and not really because I was looking to seriously improve my play. I started to feel bad for being a bronze player though, not through anything someone said to me, but just because everyone else seemed to be taking it more seriously than I was.
TL is sort of the epicenter of competitive sc-- both for self-improvement and in watching and discussing high level competition. Most of the time SC2 and (I think BW) get treated in this more critical and competitive light. For me what rubbed off was this is how you should approach SC (competitively).
For the people who get frustrated and discouraged-- are they approaching it competitively because they like it (I'd guess not), or because they've come to believe that's how SC is supposed to be approached because most of their community here treats it that way?
|
Korea (South)17174 Posts
after reading this blog
....
wat?
and i strongly doubt that anna prosser gives a fuk LOL
|
I sort of agree with you with the anxiety thing. But not to be unsensitive or anything, but newbs/noobs CAN and WILL hear that they suck, and when this is true they should learn to accept it and try to get better.
|
I doubt that people get affected like that from only hanging out here. I remember when I joined in 2003 a few months after I stopped playing competitive BW I improved steadily only playing once in a while for fun. But I guess that could make my point invalid since I joined after I tried to become good. I did lurk from late 02 so maybe it still holds some value.
TL is waay different now tho. One reason that I didnt join was that I felt like I was too bad of a player to post.
|
I can see where your coming from but from my own experiance TL has had a massive possitive affect on my game. I used to only play team games (ladder fear) but recently I've started playing more 1v1, only like 5-10 games a week but its a good start. Just from reading threads and replying to peoples posts I've learnt alot about the game (like corruptors are good vs BCs )
|
I think everyone who feels self-conscious about their skill level should remember this: Everyone, even the best players in the world were at some point complete noobs and they had to work hard to get where they are now.
Given the right mindset everyone can be a good player (well almost) But it doesnt happen over a night
|
This blog seems more like an attention thing to me than an attempt to contribute relevant thoughts. Not sure what that's about since I know you and I thought you were a pretty nice person; however this blog and the other one about BW are just pretty stupid.
Basically what Rekrul said. He always gets it right.
|
TL has changed a lot since the release of SC2.
If you wanted to ladder on ICCUP, and you were new to the game, you could expect to lose 50+ games in a row before getting a hang of things, and finding others on the ladder who were a more even fight. Even when you got a hang of the game, you could expect to lose 2/3 of your games until your mechanics improved. And, unless you were really good, you would never be able to hold a good win/loss record anyways, because the ladder was designed to match you up vs superior players more often than players of your own skill or lower skill. The only people who stuck around in that kind of environment were the type who were very competitive and dedicated to improving. The barrier for entry into the competitive scene was enormous, and you could find out very quickly if you could do it.
TL was a gathering place for these people. It was where they could share their ideas, stories, successes, failures, problems, opportunities, fears, hopes, dreams, and anything else. There was an "elitist" attitude at the time.
Yea, there were a lot of people who only watched/read stuff on TL rather than played, and there were "stuck in D-, gonna go hang myself" blogs that showed up, but the community was centered around a competitive game, and people had a better idea of what they were getting into at the time. Nowadays, I really doubt that vast majority of people in gold (the average player on battle.net) have any idea how far off of the competitive level they actually are.
The members of the community have changed drastically over the last couple of years, yet the "elitist" attitude hasn't changed as much.
KwarK made an awesome post in the Eve thread a while ago. While it is describing a situation that happened in Eve rather than on TL, the main idea of it relates to a lot of people who have been on TL for years. You may find it enlightening.
On November 22 2011 22:18 KwarK wrote:
A man walks into a private members club. In the entrance hallway there is a description of the club and its ethos, a list of rules, requirements for members, achievements, general tips for members and a description of membership and recruitment policy. He walks past these without reading them. The halls are filled with the history of the club, newspaper cuttings of the success of members, recollections of great moments, the story of the club and its members throughout the years. The man skips past these, instead strolling into the lounge where a dozen old friends are sitting around in armchairs, sharing a fine Scotch and smoking cigars. He flops down amongst them as the conversation buzzes around him, people relating their experiences of the day to each other, and then suddenly says "so, does anyone still come here?". The conversation pauses as the assembled group consider this question. "Yes" would be the obvious answer but the very act of answering validates the assertion, regardless of the words. To look deeper the asking of the question to the assembled room would seem to answer itself, the question "does anyone hear me?" can never be answered with a "no", the answer can only be affirmative or no answer at all. The room fell into stunned silence until KwarK cut through the paradox like Alexander at Gordion, the simple expression "idiot" echoing Alexander's sword stroke.
All this went above the head of the stranger whose complete lack of understanding spawned indignation. Rising to his feet he declared to the room at large "if you're going to be so rude then I won't join your club, nor will I let you car pool with me in my Fiat Panda. More fool you, I got it second hand with interest free credit and I'll have it paid off in four years". Again the room falls into stunned silence. Each and every one of them is a highly educated, highly affluent professional, all individually capable of sustaining their own life of luxury while membership of the club grants them access to the privileges of obscene wealth, access to vast amounts of easy credit, insider trading information, cheap access to goods and expert knowledge on every field. Stockbrokers, lawyers, hedge fund managers, directors in large multinationals, politicians and master thieves share a collective sigh. The stranger seizes the moment and steps up his assault crying "and I see not one of you is wearing a chunky 12ct gold chain around your neck, can't you afford one?!?".
BBQ is the first to react, admitting the collective failings of the group in their effort to between them achieve a single gold chain. The man had a point, not one gold chain between them. His dry wit was lost on the stranger who again tried to seize the initiative. Assured that his point was made he asked when his membership card would arrive so he could be a part of the group.
Finally the chairman has had enough and explains to the realities of the situation to the stranger. That his approach was both disrespectful and idiotic, that he interrupted a conversation between people detailing their activities that night to ask if anyone was there, that he ignored the work and effort put in by members to help people such as himself, that he acted as thought he instructions in the OP did not apply to himself and instead approached a group of his betters like a spoiled child claiming an entitlement. That his offer to car pool did not make him special to a group with access to private jets and that he was a supplicant and an outsider whose arrogance was both misplaced and unwelcome.
The stranger paused as he attempted to process the verbal assault. The collective group waited breathless to see his response to the explanation of his place in their house. Several minutes passed as the man stared aimlessly into the distance, his lips silently mouthing words as his brain struggled to process this new information. However the task proved too difficult and his brain rebooted itself, seizing a fact it was familiar with and uttering it with renewed certainty. His back straightened and he announced to the room "I have a car!".
The room responded with silence as the group collectively rolled their eyes. It was clear he didn't, or rather couldn't, understand.
Sensing his words may not have had the intended effect the stranger continued stating "I moved out of my parent's house and I've fed myself for over three years!". As he looked around the dimly lit room he noticed a lack of awe in the faces of the assembled men. He didn't notice that many of them were considerably older than him, nor that all of them were in expensive fitted suits and brand name accessories. The fact that several of them shared surnames with large multinationals was lost on him. Having not deigned to read the description, ethos or rules of the club before inviting himself he was completely unaware of his faux pas, twice a victim of his own arrogant assumptions. However he was beginning to notice the hostility with which several of the members responded to his claims. Unable to comprehend his error he couldn't possibly understand its cause and, suddenly feeling defensive, he withdrew.
It's not that people don't know what it's like to be part of a competitive scene; when they're so new, they may not be capable of knowing.
|
I don't think it's direct or intentional, but it depends on the mindset of the person playing. I watch a lot of casts/tournaments and often slip into the mindset of hearing Tastosis say "this is HUGE" when I kill an early Stalker or something. I used to play quakeworld competitively, and I don't think this helps my mindset in SC2 at all. I'm terrible at my main race (Plat Terran) and even worse on my 2nd account (Silver Zerg), but I enjoying winning just as much with both, and I like the way you can always ladder against people of similar skills levels. This is a roundabout way of saying that I think it depends more on the mindset of the player than the community.
Internet forums are always plagued by idiots and strong characters, but TL is a better than most, and has a really strong moderating approach. I think it's really good that players such as Anna and TotalBiscuit will stream lower level games, unfortunately people will always criticise, especially if they are of comparable skill (or lack of skill), because it makes them feel better, and less bitter about their rank. You can watch one of the numerous GM streams if you want to watch top level play. I just like seeing people who have contributed a lot to the community and reputation of SC2 take time to play and learn the game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
