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It's making me facepalm in patch threads/discussion threads where there are people that don't understand basic math/logic/reasoning that do not understand what cheaper upgrades on a forge/ebay/armory mean.
With a lower upgrade cost, when people say you are "getting your upgrades faster" what they mean is you are getting them at an earlier point in the game than you normally would have them if they were not that cheap.
With cheaper forge upgrades, you get them earlier in the game than you normally would - this is fucking common sense that apparently a huge percentage of TL patch thread posters do not have...
Stop with your "i get 1 less stalker bla bla bla" NO. NO!!!! NOOOO!!! My brain is bleeding reading that shit.
Since the people that still have no common sense are still thinking, "omg u get the upgrades at the same time," NO YOU DON'T. You get them sooner in the game!!!!1!!! I will provide you a comparison/analogy so your mediocre protoss brain can wrap your head around it.
Imagine blizzard reduced the stim upgrade cost to 50/50. You will be able to start research on this upgrade much earlier in the game than you would be able to if it cost 100/100.
This is all...common...fucking...sense. Use your brain instead of your balance bias to make posts about patch changes.
TLDR: When upgrades are made cheaper, you can start research on them at an earlier point in the game than you would be able to if they were more expensive. aka they will finish sooner than in the current game.
That is all.
  
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It was never a question IF we can get the upgrades faster, but HOW much faster. I think your superb terran brain can easily count how faster it is to get 50 minerals and 50 gas while being on 2 bases preparing for sick 2-2 timing attack that will totally change the game because of cheaper upgrades.
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On November 09 2011 07:38 ondik wrote:
It was never a question IF we can get the upgrades faster, but HOW much faster. I think your superb terran brain can easily count how faster it is to get 50 minerals and 50 gas while being on 2 bases preparing for sick 2-2 timing attack that will totally change the game because of cheaper upgrades.
My brain is still bleeding. Please...please, please, will you not listen to logic, and reason my protoss friend? Please! I beg of theee! Re-read my post, and come back enlightened my friend.
I want you to join me ondik, in the age of enlightenment, don't fight it.
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Then please, enlighten me and tell me how much faster you think will protoss get 2-2.
edit: or rather explain what's wrong with my logic that protoss will get the upgrades faster in the same amount of time he mines 50/50 on 2 bases.
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On November 09 2011 07:45 ondik wrote:
Then please, enlighten me and tell me how much faster you think will protoss get 2-2.
Did you read my blog post...the upgrades are cheaper...you get them sooner in the game than you normally would now...how is it this difficult for you and others to understand.
It's all there in the OP, trust me, you don't need advanced calculus to understand this.
edit: you seem to be someone who gets it, that you get the upgrades at a sooner point in the game. It does not matter how much sooner, you get them sooner. My blog is directed at the people that are making arguments and repeating arguments/posts of other idiots that are saying "omg 1 less stalker zealot bla bla"  because they are trying to claim you get the upgrades at the same time you would pre patch 1.4.2...which is obviously ridiculous.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
I will just quote Gatored
On November 09 2011 07:47 Gatored wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:15 avilo wrote:On November 08 2011 18:46 iamke55 wrote:On November 08 2011 18:45 avilo wrote:On November 08 2011 18:43 Heavenly wrote:On November 08 2011 18:38 avilo wrote:
Pretty sure they will revert the forge changes in 1-2 weeks. You're about to see ridiculous protoss dominance. EMP is iffy as well. Lol, the forge changes. Yeah, that one extra stalker or so is going to change the midgame so much. You get the upgrades even faster than you currently would. You don't even need to understand basic math or know how to read a clock to understand that. How would I get upgrades faster when the build time is unchanged? You have a red hammer next to your name, i expect more from you...you get the upgrades more quickly because they are cheaper...you will have enough money sooner...you will be able to research the upgrades earlier on in the game... *facepalm* The level 1 upgrades were untouched for attack and armor. By the time those 2 upgrades are done protoss has the money to upgrade to 2/2 (with the new patch or without). Therefore protoss will not have any quicker upgrades than before the patch. Edit: The only worthwhile upgrades you get in PvT is attack and armor. If you really think 50/50 for both level 2 upgrades and 100/100 for level 3 upgrades are gonna break the game then I don't know what to say anymore.
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On November 09 2011 07:48 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:45 ondik wrote:
Then please, enlighten me and tell me how much faster you think will protoss get 2-2. Did you read my blog post...the upgrades are cheaper...you get them sooner in the game than you normally would now...how is it this difficult for you and others to understand. It's all there in the OP, trust me, you don't need advanced calculus to understand this. edit: you seem to be someone who gets it, that you get the upgrades at a sooner point in the game. It does not matter how much sooner, you get them sooner. My blog is directed at the people that are making arguments and repeating arguments/posts of other idiots that are saying "omg 1 less stalker zealot bla bla" because they are trying to claim you get the upgrades at the same time you would pre patch 1.4.2...which is obviously ridiculous.
I think he's suggesting you only get them sooner by as much time as it takes to mine 50 minerals and 50 gas off two base. Which is what? Five seconds? Cool.
Edit: Nvm, I wrote this before I saw your edit. Carry on. : )
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telling people to use their brains? good luck with that.
sometimes I feel like I need to build an ark to protect myself from the flood of zerg and protoss tears.
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That's some serious theorycrafting you got there.
Also that part about "use your brain instead of your balance bias". Ain't that ironic...
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On November 09 2011 07:38 ondik wrote:
It was never a question IF we can get the upgrades faster, but HOW much faster. I think your superb terran brain can easily count how faster it is to get 50 minerals and 50 gas while being on 2 bases preparing for sick 2-2 timing attack that will totally change the game because of cheaper upgrades.
This is exactly what I thought.
I suppose it is possible that being 50-/50 cheaper that this could introduce some kind of a timing window earlier on. But I have a strange feeling Blizz looked at these changes very closely before introducing them, and as such I highly doubt any wacky timing window exists.
In any case, it's all theorycrafting without any replays or VODs.
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Each of the three workers on a single geyser will collect approximately 38 gas per minute, with saturation at approximately 114 gas/min. So if you are on:
2 gas then getting 2-2 will take 13 less seconds.
3 gas 9 seconds earlier
4 gas 6 seconds earlier
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So 1/1 should be 50/50 like concussive so it can be faster right?
Seriously though, build time is the same. . . .
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no man ud obviously only be able to get 1 more reaper if they changed the upgrade to 50/50
duh
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On November 09 2011 07:54 mewo wrote:
So 1/1 should be 50/50 like concussive so it can be faster right?
Seriously though, build time is the same. . . .
I don't think you understand what is going on here.
On November 09 2011 07:54 SiN] wrote:
no man ud obviously only be able to get 1 more reaper if they changed the upgrade to 50/50
duh
This guy understands though don't actually read what he wrote.
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Logic says the upgrades should be faster.
I mean you need less gas and minerals for the process = less work to be done right?
Like carving a spoon from a small branch compared to carving it from a huge tree.
Then again I don't think the time it takes for protoss units to get the upgrades is quite right: as you know they are warped in full gear from somewhere light years away, so where do they stick these upgraded pieces of armor in these guys is baffling.
IMO warped protoss units should atleast stop by the forge to get proper gear or protoss should have a unit like medivac that beams some extra layer of mithril ( or what ever wtf-imbalanced metal protoss units are made of) on these guys.
This in turn would give protoss the much needed macro/micro - mechanic that could silence those who think building the death ball for the first 15 minutes gets boring and they can't warm up for the highly demanding APM's of 70 in the late game.
Also this should be like second nature to protoss players as stopping by in shops makes 50% of playtime in MOBA's and WC3.
For zergs the change is genetic and the terran building is called engineering bay so it doesn't mean they actually make those new guns there, they could very well fax the new schematics to the barracks and bunkers where the changes to armor are made.
The game is broken
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This does not solve avilo turtle
I don't see how it matters vs turtle avilo
Everything dies to avilo turtle
I would like a youtube rant plz. Its been to long since your last one.
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zerg regen health, can't they just pull away units before they die and have 100% unit efficiency over the course of the game?
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this is flawed logic since protoss level 1 armor and attack have not changed, protoss will still make both forges at the same time, and start both of the upgrades at the same time. Since they always tried to maintain continuous production of upgrades from 1->2->3 the end result will be reaching level 3 armor/attack at the same time as pre patch.
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On November 09 2011 07:52 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:38 ondik wrote:
It was never a question IF we can get the upgrades faster, but HOW much faster. I think your superb terran brain can easily count how faster it is to get 50 minerals and 50 gas while being on 2 bases preparing for sick 2-2 timing attack that will totally change the game because of cheaper upgrades. This is exactly what I thought. I suppose it is possible that being 50-/50 cheaper that this could introduce some kind of a timing window earlier on. But I have a strange feeling Blizz looked at these changes very closely before introducing them, and as such I highly doubt any wacky timing window exists. In any case, it's all theorycrafting without any replays or VODs.
You don't need replays or VODS!!!!! @_@ facepalms. Lol. Another aspect that people do not seem to understand about upgrades, is it's not all about the 50/50 or whatever the hell you are mining. It's about acquiring that lump sum of cash for the level 2/level 3 upgrades.
When they are cheaper...it's much easier to save up to that sum of money to purchase the upgrades...so in many instances where saving that lump sum might fuck you up because you needed to purchase other things, you will be more easily able to afford the cheaper upgrades, which in turn means you'll end up with them finished more often at sooner points in the game than you would pre 1.4.2.
No replays or VODs needed! You don't even need a goddamn DeLorean at 88 mph to figure this shit out.
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On November 09 2011 07:59 NerZhuL wrote:
this is flawed logic since protoss level 1 armor and attack have not changed, protoss will still make both forges at the same time, and start both of the upgrades at the same time. Since they always tried to maintain continuous production of upgrades from 1->2->3 the end result will be reaching level 3 armor/attack at the same time as pre patch.
NOOOOO, NOOOOOO NOOOOOO, OMG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.  Please, you are better than this.
On November 09 2011 07:52 LuckyFool wrote:
telling people to use their brains? good luck with that.
sometimes I feel like I need to build an ark to protect myself from the flood of zerg and protoss tears.
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pretty sure theres a thread for something like this...rage thread maybe?
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I'm not sure if the OP just failed to see that level 1 ground/armor are the same (as mentioned above and in the patch notes thread). The extra minerals and gas for 2/2 is pretty miniscule considering you're likely running off 2 bases. If you had perfect macro, the time difference is still very small.
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i think nerzhul broke avilo D:
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Switzerland2892 Posts
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^ that guy English gets it, come on avilo u can do better than this...
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I'm sorry, but if the level 1 upgrade costs and research time hasn't changed, then the Protoss is not going to get the level 2 upgrades anytime earlier.
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On November 09 2011 07:59 NerZhuL wrote:
this is flawed logic since protoss level 1 armor and attack have not changed, protoss will still make both forges at the same time, and start both of the upgrades at the same time. Since they always tried to maintain continuous production of upgrades from 1->2->3 the end result will be reaching level 3 armor/attack at the same time as pre patch.
avilo.. why don't you agree with this? This is right.. lol. Protoss will always spend their money so they can start level 2 upgrades right after level 1 upgrades finish. Now all they have to spend 50/50 more before the level 1 upgrades finish.
It's not like "Oh level 1 upgrades finished, time to mine minerals and gas for level 2 upgrades." It's "i'm going to have enough money to start level 2 upgrades right when level 1 upgrades finish." Protoss players now can spend a little more money and still be able to start level 2 upgrades right away. Does this make sense to you?
On the positive side i think your rage is really funny
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The point people are making is that 1/1 will start at the same time, and whilst avilo is saying 2/2 will start EARLIER because they are cheaper, the fact is that the builds toss use for fast 2/2 should be tight enough that they have the money for 2/2 as soon as 1/1 finishes... If no changes to their builds happen they will of course be able to add an extra unit upon 1/1 finishing since they will have spare money for 2/2 I guess..
As far as I can see the only way 2/2 will finish any earlier with the change is if the build changes to add more chrono on upgs since they will be able to afford 2/2 earlier.
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So as I see it, upgrades happen at the same time, but you get more units in the meanwhile.
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I think he's just saying that because it's cheaper, you can afford it sooner.
For instance: You want to buy a new keyboard. Say it costs $50 normally. You have $20 saved up and are working at a $10/hr job. Normally this means you would have to work for three more hours so you have enough to buy the keyboard.
But hey, there's a price cut! All of a sudden it's only 30 bucks! You only have to work for one more hour, and now you have your keyboard. Therefore you will get it sooner, because you have the necessary amount of money sooner.
This, however, assumes that:
1.) You're not already immediately starting 2/2 in your forge as soon as 1/1 finishes. (I'm not a Protoss player, so I don't know how tight your builds are.) And if this part holds true, then ...
2.) Your macro is tight enough to take advantage of the fact that the research cost is lowered. (By this I mean you're not floating enough money to start the 2/2 upgrades immediately. So you're waiting a bit for your money and gas to go from X to 150, where X < 150, which will be shorter than however long it takes for X to go to 175.)
At least that's what I ... think is going on in this post. Apologies to avilo if I, too, am misreading what he said and am being idiotic. My analogy may also be completely stupid.
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On November 09 2011 08:54 Sated wrote:- You can't get Level 2 until Level 1 finishes. - You get Level 1 just as quickly as before since it costs the same. - Ergo, you can't start Level 2 any sooner no matter what it costs (even if it only cost 1 mineral and 1 gas) because the rate-limiting step is Level 1 finishing. All you need to do to have the minerals and gas ready to make Level 2 at the same time in Patch 1.4 as in Patch 1.4.2 is to cut 50/50 worth of units: No time required. People are retarded. EDIT: Show nested quote +Imagine blizzard reduced the stim upgrade cost to 50/50. You will be able to start research on this upgrade much earlier in the game than you would be able to if it cost 100/100. The time taken to build a Barracks and a Tech-Lab is less than the time taken to collect 50/50. Ergo, you should start the upgrade at the same time when it costs more, you just have to cut 50/50 worth of stuff to do so. Again, time is not the issue, the units/buildings you are able to afford whilst hitting this timing are the issue.
Dude, you're trying to reason with Avilo...it's kinda hopeless.
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On November 09 2011 07:26 avilo wrote:
It's making me facepalm in patch threads/discussion threads where there are people that don't understand basic math/logic/reasoning that do not understand what cheaper upgrades on a forge/ebay/armory mean.
With a lower upgrade cost, when people say you are "getting your upgrades faster" what they mean is you are getting them at an earlier point in the game than you normally would have them if they were not that cheap.
With cheaper forge upgrades, you get them earlier in the game than you normally would - this is fucking common sense that apparently a huge percentage of TL patch thread posters do not have...
Stop with your "i get 1 less stalker bla bla bla" NO. NO!!!! NOOOO!!! My brain is bleeding reading that shit.
Since the people that still have no common sense are still thinking, "omg u get the upgrades at the same time," NO YOU DON'T. You get them sooner in the game!!!!1!!! I will provide you a comparison/analogy so your mediocre protoss brain can wrap your head around it.
Imagine blizzard reduced the stim upgrade cost to 50/50. You will be able to start research on this upgrade much earlier in the game than you would be able to if it cost 100/100.
This is all...common...fucking...sense. Use your brain instead of your balance bias to make posts about patch changes.
TLDR: When upgrades are made cheaper, you can start research on them at an earlier point in the game than you would be able to if they were more expensive. aka they will finish sooner than in the current game.
That is all.
Chill pill yo. Just ignore 90% of the Protoss who have their minds boggled by this. They don't realize getting upgrades sooner -> you go winning TvPs -> all good.
But seriously, chill out.
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On November 09 2011 08:00 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:52 TheToast wrote:On November 09 2011 07:38 ondik wrote:
It was never a question IF we can get the upgrades faster, but HOW much faster. I think your superb terran brain can easily count how faster it is to get 50 minerals and 50 gas while being on 2 bases preparing for sick 2-2 timing attack that will totally change the game because of cheaper upgrades. This is exactly what I thought. I suppose it is possible that being 50-/50 cheaper that this could introduce some kind of a timing window earlier on. But I have a strange feeling Blizz looked at these changes very closely before introducing them, and as such I highly doubt any wacky timing window exists. In any case, it's all theorycrafting without any replays or VODs. You don't need replays or VODS!!!!! @_@ facepalms. Lol. Another aspect that people do not seem to understand about upgrades, is it's not all about the 50/50 or whatever the hell you are mining. It's about acquiring that lump sum of cash for the level 2/level 3 upgrades. When they are cheaper...it's much easier to save up to that sum of money to purchase the upgrades...so in many instances where saving that lump sum might fuck you up because you needed to purchase other things, you will be more easily able to afford the cheaper upgrades, which in turn means you'll end up with them finished more often at sooner points in the game than you would pre 1.4.2. No replays or VODs needed! You don't even need a goddamn DeLorean at 88 mph to figure this shit out.
At your level of play... 50 minerals for +2 doesn't even matter, you've probably fucked up enough by then to not feel any difference.. Dude you float minerals throughout the game, what are you arguing, milliseconds?
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Lol avilo isn't in bronze man.
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On November 09 2011 09:12 Probe1 wrote:
Lol avilo isn't in bronze man.
Who says he is? He's your typical C/C+ iccup user with negative record switched to sc2 terran, I don't know who's better - him or that 14 yr old bunny guy.
If you're telling me he's suddenly macroing like a pro and spending all of his money I'm just not going to believe you. Even pros float minerals lol. Not like it matters in sc2.
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ok so im confused, patch is OP because toss gets like 5-10 extra stalkers out right?
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On November 09 2011 07:47 Gatored wrote:
The level 1 upgrades were untouched for attack and armor. By the time those 2 upgrades are done protoss has the money to upgrade to 2/2 (with the new patch or without). Therefore protoss will not have any quicker upgrades than before the patch.
Edit: The only worthwhile upgrades you get in PvT is attack and armor. If you really think 50/50 for both level 2 upgrades and 100/100 for level 3 upgrades are gonna break the game then I don't know what to say anymore.
Avilo why won't you respond to this one?
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LoL this thread backfired big time
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On November 09 2011 09:25 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:47 Gatored wrote:
The level 1 upgrades were untouched for attack and armor. By the time those 2 upgrades are done protoss has the money to upgrade to 2/2 (with the new patch or without). Therefore protoss will not have any quicker upgrades than before the patch.
Edit: The only worthwhile upgrades you get in PvT is attack and armor. If you really think 50/50 for both level 2 upgrades and 100/100 for level 3 upgrades are gonna break the game then I don't know what to say anymore. Avilo why won't you respond to this one?
Because he's wrong and this particular post makes him look stupid.
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I guess after the rage he's shown and the insults thrown around, he has now realised his mistake, and feels all of those insults suddenly applied to him all at once, he is currently sobbing in the corner.
In all seriousness can someone theory craft this for me? cba making a new topic so i'll ask here.
Just how many more stalkers can you get out with this change?
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On November 09 2011 09:41 Khazroul wrote:
I guess after the rage he's shown and the insults thrown around, he has now realised his mistake, and feels all of those insults suddenly applied to him all at once, he is currently sobbing in the corner.
In all seriousness can someone theory craft this for me? cba making a new topic so i'll ask here.
Just how many more stalkers can you get out with this change?
You can just theorically replace one zealot with one stalker and an interceptor because of the 50/50 you will save.
Quite meaningless.
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On November 09 2011 09:46 pPingu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 09:41 Khazroul wrote:
I guess after the rage he's shown and the insults thrown around, he has now realised his mistake, and feels all of those insults suddenly applied to him all at once, he is currently sobbing in the corner.
In all seriousness can someone theory craft this for me? cba making a new topic so i'll ask here.
Just how many more stalkers can you get out with this change?
You can just theorically replace one zealot with one stalker and an interceptor because of the 50/50 you will save. Quite meaningless.
Interceptor is game-changing. Idiot.
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On November 09 2011 09:57 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 09:46 pPingu wrote:On November 09 2011 09:41 Khazroul wrote:
I guess after the rage he's shown and the insults thrown around, he has now realised his mistake, and feels all of those insults suddenly applied to him all at once, he is currently sobbing in the corner.
In all seriousness can someone theory craft this for me? cba making a new topic so i'll ask here.
Just how many more stalkers can you get out with this change?
You can just theorically replace one zealot with one stalker and an interceptor because of the 50/50 you will save. Quite meaningless. Interceptor is game-changing. Idiot.
OMG toss OP.
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Thanks for the response, it'd good to know that when I go carriers I can get that interceptor out. I tend to find stalkers more useful than zealots in most cases anyway! :D
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On November 09 2011 07:59 Endymion wrote:
zerg regen health, can't they just pull away units before they die and have 100% unit efficiency over the course of the game?
To the Nerf mobile!
Honestly this thread is brilliant. So much rage!
I think I might hang around for a bit 
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Norway28575 Posts
On November 09 2011 09:41 Khazroul wrote:
I guess after the rage he's shown and the insults thrown around, he has now realised his mistake, and feels all of those insults suddenly applied to him all at once, he is currently sobbing in the corner.
In all seriousness can someone theory craft this for me? cba making a new topic so i'll ask here.
Just how many more stalkers can you get out with this change?
if you include shields, then p can have 375/375 more in army value after having 3 3 3 upgrades now than before. without shields, they can have 150/150 more in army value after hitting 3 0 3 now than before. they can also have 50/50 more in army value when starting 2/2 now than before.
if 1 1 upgrades had been changed, then yes, it could make a difference beyond amount of units because a timed 1 1 or 2 2 attack could strike some seconds earlier (and that can be significant), but as 1 1 has not been changed, there is no difference in how fast upgrades will finish at any level. (as protoss players already start 2 2 once 1 1 finishes - the difference is that now they can swap one zealot for one stalker, or turn one stalker into one sentry and two probes, or something like that, while still banking enough to start 2 2.
if shields were factored into the equation, and maybe they will be now, then it'd be a bit different and actually significant, but whining about the 2-2 and 3-3 changes for melee and armor is just.. stupid. at least emp radius is actually something that will influence games.
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You bronze scrubs are so far behind the curve it's not even funny, Avilo was CLEARLY talking about the future triple forge builds.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On November 09 2011 09:57 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 09:46 pPingu wrote:On November 09 2011 09:41 Khazroul wrote:
I guess after the rage he's shown and the insults thrown around, he has now realised his mistake, and feels all of those insults suddenly applied to him all at once, he is currently sobbing in the corner.
In all seriousness can someone theory craft this for me? cba making a new topic so i'll ask here.
Just how many more stalkers can you get out with this change?
You can just theorically replace one zealot with one stalker and an interceptor because of the 50/50 you will save. Quite meaningless. Interceptor is game-changing. Idiot.
Busted! I thought I could minimize it, but you are too clever
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On November 09 2011 10:09 Lior wrote:
You bronze scrubs are so far behind the curve it's not even funny, Avilo was CLEARLY talking about the future triple forge builds.
Nah, not viable. It loses to Quad Armory Mech Banshee Raven with Ghosts. Trust me I've done the math.
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hm. There are so many points in this thread that basically prove his rage is uncalled for overall. What i find comical is that he will continue to ignore these points, argue with no substance, and still think he is right in saying its game breaking.... This blog is fun. Thanks for the laugh. 5/5 ^__^
let me just quote like the 5th response, that you chose to ignore. And liquid drone pretty much covers it aswell.
On November 09 2011 07:47 Gatored wrote:
Show nested quote +
The level 1 upgrades were untouched for attack and armor. By the time those 2 upgrades are done protoss has the money to upgrade to 2/2 (with the new patch or without). Therefore protoss will not have any quicker upgrades than before the patch.
Edit: The only worthwhile upgrades you get in PvT is attack and armor. If you really think 50/50 for both level 2 upgrades and 100/100 for level 3 upgrades are gonna break the game then I don't know what to say anymore.
I honestly thought this would be the first patch were something happens, and it would just kinda happen and no one would make a big deal out of it. Maybe the emp nerf would get ppl raging but i honestly didnt expect anyone to care about the upgrade changes lol. Guess everyone has to blame and rage toward something.
Also ps- no one really gets shield upgrades ever vs terran.
This should be spotlighted - labeled for entertainment purposes. :D
And once again he ignored the good points and trolls the rest. Quality!! i love it!
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I don't remember the last time I saw a blog thread that should be closed because it was just plain misguided.
1. Balance whine
2. Doesn't understand that with Level 1 upgrades not being cheaper/ faster, Level 2 upgrades won't come any faster.
3. Even if immediate upgrades were 50 resources cheaper, they would only come about 5 seconds sooner (read as: negligible).
4. Isn't avilo not someone to be taken seriously?
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On November 09 2011 08:43 babylon wrote:
I think he's just saying that because it's cheaper, you can afford it sooner.
For instance: You want to buy a new keyboard. Say it costs $50 normally. You have $20 saved up and are working at a $10/hr job. Normally this means you would have to work for three more hours so you have enough to buy the keyboard.
But hey, there's a price cut! All of a sudden it's only 30 bucks! You only have to work for one more hour, and now you have your keyboard. Therefore you will get it sooner, because you have the necessary amount of money sooner.
This, however, assumes that:
1.) You're not already immediately starting 2/2 in your forge as soon as 1/1 finishes. (I'm not a Protoss player, so I don't know how tight your builds are.) And if this part holds true, then ...
2.) Your macro is tight enough to take advantage of the fact that the research cost is lowered. (By this I mean you're not floating enough money to start the 2/2 upgrades immediately. So you're waiting a bit for your money and gas to go from X to 150, where X < 150, which will be shorter than however long it takes for X to go to 175.)
At least that's what I ... think is going on in this post. Apologies to avilo if I, too, am misreading what he said and am being idiotic. My analogy may also be completely stupid.
YES! Your analogy is one I was going to type out and make but then I realized the it would be a similar question to one on an elementary schooler's math quiz, and so far, it's looking like many of these people would not pass it.
On November 09 2011 08:54 Sated wrote:- You can't get Level 2 until Level 1 finishes. - You get Level 1 just as quickly as before since it costs the same. - Ergo, you can't start Level 2 any sooner no matter what it costs (even if it only cost 1 mineral and 1 gas) because the rate-limiting step is Level 1 finishing. All you need to do to have the minerals and gas ready to make Level 2 at the same time in Patch 1.4 as in Patch 1.4.2 is to cut 50/50 worth of units: No time required. People are retarded.EDIT: Show nested quote +Imagine blizzard reduced the stim upgrade cost to 50/50. You will be able to start research on this upgrade much earlier in the game than you would be able to if it cost 100/100. The time taken to build a Barracks and a Tech-Lab is less than the time taken to collect 50/50. Ergo, you should start the upgrade at the same time when it costs more, you just have to cut 50/50 worth of stuff to do so. Again, time is not the issue, the units/buildings you are able to afford whilst hitting this timing are the issue.
Yes, why yes they are *looks directly at you*
On November 09 2011 09:21 Rotodyne wrote:
ok so im confused, patch is OP because toss gets like 5-10 extra stalkers out right?
My thread is not about OP or underpowered - it's pointing out how many people do not have fucking common sense or 5th grade math / reasoning skills.
On November 09 2011 09:25 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:47 Gatored wrote:
The level 1 upgrades were untouched for attack and armor. By the time those 2 upgrades are done protoss has the money to upgrade to 2/2 (with the new patch or without). Therefore protoss will not have any quicker upgrades than before the patch.
Edit: The only worthwhile upgrades you get in PvT is attack and armor. If you really think 50/50 for both level 2 upgrades and 100/100 for level 3 upgrades are gonna break the game then I don't know what to say anymore. Avilo why won't you respond to this one?
Even though I'm at my computer a lot, i'm not at it 24/7...
On November 09 2011 09:40 Complete wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 09:25 strongandbig wrote:On November 09 2011 07:47 Gatored wrote:
The level 1 upgrades were untouched for attack and armor. By the time those 2 upgrades are done protoss has the money to upgrade to 2/2 (with the new patch or without). Therefore protoss will not have any quicker upgrades than before the patch.
Edit: The only worthwhile upgrades you get in PvT is attack and armor. If you really think 50/50 for both level 2 upgrades and 100/100 for level 3 upgrades are gonna break the game then I don't know what to say anymore. Avilo why won't you respond to this one? Because he's wrong and this particular post makes him look stupid.
Or because i was not at my computer...? ....
gators post is another example of someone that does not fucking understand basic reasoning. The upgrades cost less, it means you can pay the lump sum sooner than you would pre-patch...*facepalms* it's not hard to understand at all. Yet all of these protosses are making this out to be fuckin calculus.
On November 09 2011 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I don't remember the last time I saw a blog thread that should be closed because it was just plain misguided.
1. Balance whine
2. Doesn't understand that with Level 1 upgrades not being cheaper/ faster, Level 2 upgrades won't come any faster.
3. Even if immediate upgrades were 50 resources cheaper, they would only come about 5 seconds sooner (read as: negligible).
4. Isn't avilo not someone to be taken seriously?
1) My thread and OP had zero balance whine in it at all, if you perceived that then that's some perception you have and is related to your own internal balance whinining. Read the OP - zero balance whine.
2) Holy fucking shit. You're one of "them." This blog post relates to a poster such as yourself! I am assuming you did go to elementary school or the equivalent for whatever country your from. Level 2 upgrades cost less money. Level 3 upgrades cost less money. You will be able to afford them earlier than you would pre-patch, it's not fucking rocket science. You will have the ability to save up those resources and pay them at an earlier point in the game because they cost less fucking money!
3) Not necessarily. Because of the high cost of the level 2/3 upgrades across all races, there are moments in games where decisions will be made to either save up that entire sum of money to research the upgrades or not to, and with cheaper upgrades, there will more often be times where you will be able to afford purchasing these upgrades because they COST LESS MONEY.
4) Sup hater. Hater gonna hate.
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Avilo if anything what you say doesn't make any sense. If you read what Liquid`Drone posted, he gives a good rationale why the cheaper upgrades do NOT mean EARLIER upgrades. All toss players doing the 2/2 thing will start 2/2 immediately after 1/1 finishes. The only difference, like he said, will be a unit or two. It won't change timings at all. It just means the 2/2 push will be a little bit stronger.
If the first level of upgrades had been changes, then I can see a difference in timing of the upgrades, but by the time 2/2 upgrades need to be pushed, the toss economy should be at a level where they don't have to be waited on at all.
Also, why you so BM to me on ladder?
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You really dont get it do you?Noones gets them 'sooner' because they were already getting them as fast as possible.This doesn't affect 1/1 just 2/2.Wtf man.
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You're really gonna regret calling all these people retarded and dissing their math skills when it finally all clicks together in your brain avilo
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Norway28575 Posts
dude, you can't pay them earlier than you could have in an earlier patch because you can't start 2 2 before 1 1 finishes and 1 1 does not finish any earlier. the only way your logic works is if protoss players were currently in the habit of not starting 2-2 immediately after 1-1 finished because they hadn't saved up money..
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Liquid`Drone if your explanation doesn't get it through to his head, then I suggest we just stop trying to convince him of our correct logic. Because if he doesn't understand after your explanation, it's just obvious he's trolling for his own entertainment. Nobody is stupid enough to not understand the simple logic that toss always starts 2/2 right after 1/1 (if they are paying attention).
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On November 09 2011 10:35 ItsYoungLee wrote:
Liquid`Drone if your explanation does get it through to his head, then I suggest we just stop trying to convince him of our correct logic.
I'm starting to think this might be a very elaborate troll.
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On November 09 2011 09:41 Khazroul wrote:
I guess after the rage he's shown and the insults thrown around, he has now realised his mistake, and feels all of those insults suddenly applied to him all at once, he is currently sobbing in the corner.
In all seriousness can someone theory craft this for me? cba making a new topic so i'll ask here.
Just how many more stalkers can you get out with this change?
Or because i was not at my computer...but it's a bit difficult for you guys to deduce something so simple, when you're too busy slinging flames around @_@
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I'm beginning to suspect that this in fact a clever disguised meta-blog. Avilo is in fact revelling in the idiotic logic he so displayed in his OP. By pushing the boundaries of what could be considered reasonable, he has pointed out how ridiculous balance whining about insignificant changes are. He does this all through clever use of rage. Note how many people have commented on what is just a angry blog.
I must say it is a very subtle technique. The irony of course is that his meta-blog is so well done that people actually believe he is serious and so dismiss the point he is trying to make.
Genius has often been mistaken for madness and I for one won't make that mistake. Well done Avilo, you show them who knows whats going on.
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On November 09 2011 10:34 Liquid`Drone wrote:
dude, you can't pay them earlier than you could have in an earlier patch because you can't start 2 2 before 1 1 finishes and 1 1 does not finish any earlier. the only way your logic works is if protoss players were currently in the habit of not starting 2-2 immediately after 1-1 finished because they hadn't saved up money..
Calm down my friend, he is just trolling hard. Just sit back and watch the show. He will choose to pick out certain things and ignore others. It is fantastic. Art really. I wish i had the ability to call everyone around me a idiot, and honestly think that everyone in the world has no idea what they are talking about and i am the one and only person who understands life itself. Sadly im not that ignorant D: Would be interesting life tho, full of rage :D This blog is very very pointless tho, especially with the patch thread.
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On November 09 2011 10:34 Liquid`Drone wrote:
dude, you can't pay them earlier than you could have in an earlier patch because you can't start 2 2 before 1 1 finishes and 1 1 does not finish any earlier. the only way your logic works is if protoss players were currently in the habit of not starting 2-2 immediately after 1-1 finished because they hadn't saved up money..
My logic is assuming no one is perfect...you can't ALWAYS immediately start 2/2 upgrades. If you could every game, then I would agree with you. Too many variables y0. Great scott.
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On November 09 2011 10:37 Probulous wrote:
I'm beginning to suspect that this in fact a clever disguised meta-blog. Avilo is in fact revelling in the idiotic logic he so displayed in his OP. By pushing the boundaries of what could be considered reasonable, he has pointed out how ridiculous balance whining about insignificant changes are. He does this all through clever use of rage. Note how many people have commented on what is just a angry blog.
I must say it is a very subtle technique. The irony of course is that his meta-blog is so well done that people actually believe he is serious and so dismiss the point he is trying to make.
Genius has often been mistaken for madness and I for one won't make that mistake. Well done Avilo, you show them who knows whats going on.
GREAT SCOTT
![[image loading]](http://www.thecriticalfailure.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/1983_delorean_back_to_the_future_3.jpg)
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On November 09 2011 10:38 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 10:34 Liquid`Drone wrote:
dude, you can't pay them earlier than you could have in an earlier patch because you can't start 2 2 before 1 1 finishes and 1 1 does not finish any earlier. the only way your logic works is if protoss players were currently in the habit of not starting 2-2 immediately after 1-1 finished because they hadn't saved up money.. My logic is assuming no one is perfect...you can't ALWAYS immediately start 2/2 upgrades. If you could every game, then I would agree with you. Too many variables y0. Great scott.
Sup son? Timings are pretty good and important at high level I heard :DDDDDDDDDDDDD
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Okay... If you saved up, the upgrades will come at the exact same time. The upgrades will only come earlier assuming you don't have enough when the previous upgrade finishes (i.e. you will be able to afford it quicker because your income will give you the amount of money you need sooner because it is lower).
But the real question is, how on earth do those few seconds to mine some minerals and gas at that point of the game really matter? I highly doubt it suddenly rocks the earth with a new broken 2/2 or 3/3 timing that terran or zerg could not hold off unless they had a few more seconds to prepare.
I'm pretty sure most people understand what you're saying, they're just saying that it's quite insignificant.
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Norway28575 Posts
okay so in between say, 5% and 50% of games depending on skill level (where most competitive players should find themselves closer to 5) 2 2 will be inbetween 0 and 6 seconds faster depending on how much additional gas and minerals they had to mine. you take this information and deduce that blizz is gonna have to revert the forge change because p will manage to time their 2-2 in a way that'll lead to protoss dominance? okay..
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My only complaint is that toss now has cheaper upgrades that affect two tech levels @@
If terran had ship/mech in one, or bio/mech in one
that would be awesome
=.=;
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On November 09 2011 10:38 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 10:34 Liquid`Drone wrote:
dude, you can't pay them earlier than you could have in an earlier patch because you can't start 2 2 before 1 1 finishes and 1 1 does not finish any earlier. the only way your logic works is if protoss players were currently in the habit of not starting 2-2 immediately after 1-1 finished because they hadn't saved up money.. My logic is assuming no one is perfect...you can't ALWAYS immediately start 2/2 upgrades. If you could every game, then I would agree with you. Too many variables y0. Great scott.
Any decent pro player (maybe a bit higher level than you so you don't understand?) going for a 2/2 push/getting early upgrades/doinganybuildwhereupgradesmatter will ALWAYS immediately start 2/2 upgrades after 1/1 finishes.
your logic is makes me lol
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Yeh, figured it out, Avilo is having fun with us The picture of the time machine car 100% confirms it.
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On November 09 2011 10:30 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 10:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
I don't remember the last time I saw a blog thread that should be closed because it was just plain misguided.
1. Balance whine
2. Doesn't understand that with Level 1 upgrades not being cheaper/ faster, Level 2 upgrades won't come any faster.
3. Even if immediate upgrades were 50 resources cheaper, they would only come about 5 seconds sooner (read as: negligible).
4. Isn't avilo not someone to be taken seriously? 1) My thread and OP had zero balance whine in it at all, if you perceived that then that's some perception you have and is related to your own internal balance whinining. Read the OP - zero balance whine. 2) Holy fucking shit. You're one of "them." This blog post relates to a poster such as yourself! I am assuming you did go to elementary school or the equivalent for whatever country your from. Level 2 upgrades cost less money. Level 3 upgrades cost less money. You will be able to afford them earlier than you would pre-patch, it's not fucking rocket science. You will have the ability to save up those resources and pay them at an earlier point in the game b ecause they cost less fucking money!3) Not necessarily. Because of the high cost of the level 2/3 upgrades across all races, there are moments in games where decisions will be made to either save up that entire sum of money to research the upgrades or not to, and with cheaper upgrades, there will more often be times where you will be able to afford purchasing these upgrades because they COST LESS MONEY. 4) Sup hater. Hater gonna hate.
On November 09 2011 10:38 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 10:34 Liquid`Drone wrote:
dude, you can't pay them earlier than you could have in an earlier patch because you can't start 2 2 before 1 1 finishes and 1 1 does not finish any earlier. the only way your logic works is if protoss players were currently in the habit of not starting 2-2 immediately after 1-1 finished because they hadn't saved up money.. My logic is assuming no one is perfect...you can't ALWAYS immediately start 2/2 upgrades. If you could every game, then I would agree with you. Too many variables y0. Great scott.
If you're looking to hit an upgrade timing attack, having enough money for your upgrades takes priority over everything else anyway. This means that you're going to make sure you have enough money to start your Level 2 upgrades immediately, so the 50 extra (or fewer) resources is irrelevant, because you've been stocking up anyway. You can decide half a minute before Level 1 finishes to not make a complete round of units, so that you'll have enough money for upgrades. This is the reason why people start talking about the extra unit or two truly being the only advantage. You will always have enough money for Level 2 if you care enough about your upgrades, regardless of this upgrade cost buff.
If you're not looking to hit an upgrade timing attack, then upgrades aren't going to come out any quicker for you either, because you have no interest in upgrading as fast as possible anyway. You just upgrade whenever you're floating resources, or whenever you feel like it. It's a non-issue here.
Either way (these options are dichotomous), you're not getting the upgrades faster.
I know what your next blog is going to be:
+ Show Spoiler +But EMP *doesn't actually kill* units!
You might as well start on that one now.
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hey guys avilo goes mech vs protoss...I'd prolly get mad too.
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Admit it avilo, you didnt think this through the way you should have . You are blindly assuming that protoss players dont start 2/2 right after 1/1 currently (which they do), and that being able to start it 10seconds earlier is game breaking...If anything you seem like the one thats clueless.
1/1 WILL ALWAYS FINISH AT THE SAME TIME AS PREPATCH.
2/2 IS 99% OF THE TIME STARTED RIGHT AFTER 1/1 FINISHES IN PREPATCH (gatored confirms this as an amazing pvt player. He states you already have the money to start 2/2 immediately after 1/1 prepatch)
The only difference is that you are able to add 150/150 towards your army due to 2/2 being less costly.
EDIT: If your meta-blogging us, then nice job 
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For some reasons I am humming "Man on the moon" by REM while reading this blog.
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For anyone genuinely confused, it's a matter of which model best describes the in-game experience.
So the time model - you can get them sooner - assumes that when 1/1 finishes, you will have 0 minerals and 0 gas, and since you now only need to wait until 150/150 rather than 175/175 per upgrade, you will be able to start your upgrades sooner.
The 'extra stuff' model assumes that when 1/1 finishes you will have enough resources to immediately start researching 2/2. Because you now only need 150/150 rather than 175/175 per upgrade, you don't have to ensure you've stockpiled as many resources, so therefore you can spend that 50/50 on other things (making a stalker instead of a zealot, for example).
So take whichever model you think makes the best assumptions about the game, and use that to work out how the change affects you or your opponents. I'd suggest the 'extra stuff' model is much more likely to be closer to the truth.
And now I'm done, having been successfully trolled :D
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Think Terran upgrades need to be faster so that your TvT's might possibly be able to end like 5 mins earlier? Isn't the lower upgrade cost for Protoss negatively affecting your usual style of play?
+ Show Spoiler +
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Your stim pack analogy makes zero sense and doesn't really clear anything up compared to simply saying that cheaper forge upgrades allow for faster upgrades lol.
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The reason most people don't catch Avilo's satire is because he really is the type to complain about asinine things. Who remembers his argument with ret?
OP would have been so much more effective if a mannered player made it.
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TL'ers are spending more time on this discussion than Blizzard have likely spent in making every patch ever. It's not that big a deal.
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On November 09 2011 12:06 MayorITC wrote:
The reason most people don't catch Avilo's satire is because he really is the type to complain about asinine things. Who remembers his argument with ret?
OP would have been so much more effective if a mannered player made it.
You wish it was like that, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
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Avilo is also the person who tried to argue that tvz was impossible if you didn't 2rax bunker rush or w/e was in vogue whenever he wrote that blog, along comes mvp, who needs what now...
I'm in "mid" masters and my 2-2 is never more then 5 seconds after my 1-1 if i'm going for that type of build, unless i'm being harassed and need the money at that instant, so i fail to see how it's any faster... yes i have an extra 50/50, however what benefit 50/50 gives me i don't know, since there is literally nothing other than a probe i could fit in, in this time period
therefore players at your level, much tighter, so definitely not an issue for you, this update might help diamond level protoss with some slightly less sloppy timings, but otherwise meh
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On November 09 2011 12:31 Coramoor wrote:
Avilo is also the person who tried to argue that tvz was impossible if you didn't 2rax bunker rush or w/e was in vogue whenever he wrote that blog, along comes mvp, who needs what now...
I'm in "mid" masters and my 2-2 is never more then 5 seconds after my 1-1 if i'm going for that type of build, unless i'm being harassed and need the money at that instant, so i fail to see how it's any faster... yes i have an extra 50/50, however what benefit 50/50 gives me i don't know, since there is literally nothing other than a probe i could fit in, in this time period
therefore players at your level, much tighter, so definitely not an issue for you, this update might help diamond level protoss with some slightly less sloppy timings, but otherwise meh
this is what I came in here to say. if I'm going for a quick +1.... I'm not trying to blow anybodies minds or anything but +2 follows it immediately. that extra 50/50 is cool and everything but its not going to change a single thing lol
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A hilarious blog - when caught in the face of irrefutable logic avilo retreats back to the "I'm just trolling" shell.
Anyways, avilo has a history of balance arguments - who can forget the TvZ avilo balance while back in GSL Season 3?
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Hey Avilo guess what? Kheydarin Amulet.
Never understood why you complained about that when all you do is make tanks, wtf can storm do vs range 13 LOL
PS it actually wasn't imbalanced, PvT winrates even during storm season was right around 50% and that was before Terrans even used ghosts.
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On November 09 2011 12:44 Azzur wrote:
A hilarious blog - when caught in the face of irrefutable logic avilo retreats back to the "I'm just trolling" shell.
Anyways, avilo has a history of balance arguments - who can forget the TvZ avilo balance while back in GSL Season 3?
Do not be fooled by his common place appearance, like so many things it is not what is outside, but what is inside that counts...
This is not ordinary blog! It once changed the course of a young man's play. A young man who wrote this blog, was more than what he seemed. A diamond in the rough. Perhaps you would like to hear the tale? It begins on a dark night, where Dustin Browder waits, with a dark purpose.
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On November 09 2011 10:34 Liquid`Drone wrote:
dude, you can't pay them earlier than you could have in an earlier patch because you can't start 2 2 before 1 1 finishes and 1 1 does not finish any earlier. the only way your logic works is if protoss players were currently in the habit of not starting 2-2 immediately after 1-1 finished because they hadn't saved up money..
Well, his subject does say "Bronzies" who may not have their macro timings tight enough to start 2-2 right after 1-1. If someone accidentally creates an additional probe or warps in an extra stalker earlier on, then 1.4.2 does allow them to start 2-2 a little faster. It gives people more slack to recover from "mistakes", which I guess is offensive to avilo.
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On November 09 2011 12:51 Geovu wrote:
Hey Avilo guess what? Kheydarin Amulet.
Never understood why you complained about that when all you do is make tanks, wtf can storm do vs range 13 LOL
PS it actually wasn't imbalanced, PvT winrates even during storm season was right around 50% and that was before Terrans even used ghosts.
It was horrendously imbalanced, which is why it was removed from the game. And also Terran had a hell of a lot of "buffs" back then compared to current patch. Nice try to de-rail tho ^_^ my blog is not about balance. Although a few forum warriors have come out of the woodwork referencing arguments I made a year ago that have nothing to do with this topic for some reason @_@
On November 09 2011 17:16 Inori wrote:
So let me get this straight.
A guy that is known for whining over balance and patch changes makes a "sarcastic" blog on people that whine over balance and patch changes? Amazing!
We're in a dream.
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I didn't bother reading every post (I was going to drop some logic on avilo about rates and critical paths and shit like that).
But apparently he's admitted he's wrong now? I hope so because he straight up is (I'm a terran player too). The new patch shouldn't affect the upgrade timing at all. What it will affect is giving the protoss a little extra money should they choose to get fast upgrades.
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Why do you think that saying something untrue in a blog post is going to get more people to agree with you than saying the same untrue thing in a forum thread?
In what game have you seen someone going for a 2/2 timing push lose because (1) he was 50/50 short when 1/1 finished and (2) the timing was so razor thin that the attack would have been successful if it had come five seconds earlier but didn't because of (1)?
For that matter, in what game have you seen a pro who was going for a 2/2 timing but didn't have the resources to start 2/2 when 1/1 was done? Hitting that timing is what 2/2 timing builds are built around, the only difference the price makes when executing them is in how many units you can have in addition to your upgrade investments at any given moment.
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LOL all kinds of stupid in this blog....
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So let me get this straight...
Upgrades are cheaper, so you can get them with less money aka earlier?
Or is it like you can get a stalker with the upgrade for the same price as the previous version of the upgrade?
Shit starcraft is confusing, better be watching pictures of cats instead.
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On November 09 2011 10:37 Probulous wrote:
I'm beginning to suspect that this in fact a clever disguised meta-blog. Avilo is in fact revelling in the idiotic logic he so displayed in his OP. By pushing the boundaries of what could be considered reasonable, he has pointed out how ridiculous balance whining about insignificant changes are. He does this all through clever use of rage. Note how many people have commented on what is just a angry blog.
I must say it is a very subtle technique. The irony of course is that his meta-blog is so well done that people actually believe he is serious and so dismiss the point he is trying to make.
Genius has often been mistaken for madness and I for one won't make that mistake. Well done Avilo, you show them who knows whats going on.
BLOGCEPTION
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I think he's still just steaming from this guy
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This thread is fucking painful.
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On November 09 2011 08:54 Sated wrote:- You can't get Level 2 until Level 1 finishes. - You get Level 1 just as quickly as before since it costs the same. - Ergo, you can't start Level 2 any sooner no matter what it costs (even if it only cost 1 mineral and 1 gas) because the rate-limiting step is Level 1 finishing. All you need to do to have the minerals and gas ready to make Level 2 at the same time in Patch 1.4 as in Patch 1.4.2 is to cut 50/50 worth of units: No time required. People are retarded. EDIT: Show nested quote +Imagine blizzard reduced the stim upgrade cost to 50/50. You will be able to start research on this upgrade much earlier in the game than you would be able to if it cost 100/100. The time taken to build a Barracks and a Tech-Lab is less than the time taken to collect 50/50. Ergo, you should start the upgrade at the same time when it costs more, you just have to cut 50/50 worth of stuff to do so. Again, time is not the issue, the units/buildings you are able to afford whilst hitting this timing are the issue.
Sated wins because he used kinetics to prove the OP wrong. Chemistry always wins.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7MuJf.jpg)
