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On November 09 2011 07:59 NerZhuL wrote:
this is flawed logic since protoss level 1 armor and attack have not changed, protoss will still make both forges at the same time, and start both of the upgrades at the same time. Since they always tried to maintain continuous production of upgrades from 1->2->3 the end result will be reaching level 3 armor/attack at the same time as pre patch.
NOOOOO, NOOOOOO NOOOOOO, OMG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.  Please, you are better than this.
On November 09 2011 07:52 LuckyFool wrote:
telling people to use their brains? good luck with that.
sometimes I feel like I need to build an ark to protect myself from the flood of zerg and protoss tears.
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pretty sure theres a thread for something like this...rage thread maybe?
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I'm not sure if the OP just failed to see that level 1 ground/armor are the same (as mentioned above and in the patch notes thread). The extra minerals and gas for 2/2 is pretty miniscule considering you're likely running off 2 bases. If you had perfect macro, the time difference is still very small.
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i think nerzhul broke avilo D:
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Switzerland2892 Posts
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^ that guy English gets it, come on avilo u can do better than this...
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I'm sorry, but if the level 1 upgrade costs and research time hasn't changed, then the Protoss is not going to get the level 2 upgrades anytime earlier.
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On November 09 2011 07:59 NerZhuL wrote:
this is flawed logic since protoss level 1 armor and attack have not changed, protoss will still make both forges at the same time, and start both of the upgrades at the same time. Since they always tried to maintain continuous production of upgrades from 1->2->3 the end result will be reaching level 3 armor/attack at the same time as pre patch.
avilo.. why don't you agree with this? This is right.. lol. Protoss will always spend their money so they can start level 2 upgrades right after level 1 upgrades finish. Now all they have to spend 50/50 more before the level 1 upgrades finish.
It's not like "Oh level 1 upgrades finished, time to mine minerals and gas for level 2 upgrades." It's "i'm going to have enough money to start level 2 upgrades right when level 1 upgrades finish." Protoss players now can spend a little more money and still be able to start level 2 upgrades right away. Does this make sense to you?
On the positive side i think your rage is really funny
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The point people are making is that 1/1 will start at the same time, and whilst avilo is saying 2/2 will start EARLIER because they are cheaper, the fact is that the builds toss use for fast 2/2 should be tight enough that they have the money for 2/2 as soon as 1/1 finishes... If no changes to their builds happen they will of course be able to add an extra unit upon 1/1 finishing since they will have spare money for 2/2 I guess..
As far as I can see the only way 2/2 will finish any earlier with the change is if the build changes to add more chrono on upgs since they will be able to afford 2/2 earlier.
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So as I see it, upgrades happen at the same time, but you get more units in the meanwhile.
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I think he's just saying that because it's cheaper, you can afford it sooner.
For instance: You want to buy a new keyboard. Say it costs $50 normally. You have $20 saved up and are working at a $10/hr job. Normally this means you would have to work for three more hours so you have enough to buy the keyboard.
But hey, there's a price cut! All of a sudden it's only 30 bucks! You only have to work for one more hour, and now you have your keyboard. Therefore you will get it sooner, because you have the necessary amount of money sooner.
This, however, assumes that:
1.) You're not already immediately starting 2/2 in your forge as soon as 1/1 finishes. (I'm not a Protoss player, so I don't know how tight your builds are.) And if this part holds true, then ...
2.) Your macro is tight enough to take advantage of the fact that the research cost is lowered. (By this I mean you're not floating enough money to start the 2/2 upgrades immediately. So you're waiting a bit for your money and gas to go from X to 150, where X < 150, which will be shorter than however long it takes for X to go to 175.)
At least that's what I ... think is going on in this post. Apologies to avilo if I, too, am misreading what he said and am being idiotic. My analogy may also be completely stupid.
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On November 09 2011 08:54 Sated wrote:- You can't get Level 2 until Level 1 finishes. - You get Level 1 just as quickly as before since it costs the same. - Ergo, you can't start Level 2 any sooner no matter what it costs (even if it only cost 1 mineral and 1 gas) because the rate-limiting step is Level 1 finishing. All you need to do to have the minerals and gas ready to make Level 2 at the same time in Patch 1.4 as in Patch 1.4.2 is to cut 50/50 worth of units: No time required. People are retarded. EDIT: Show nested quote +Imagine blizzard reduced the stim upgrade cost to 50/50. You will be able to start research on this upgrade much earlier in the game than you would be able to if it cost 100/100. The time taken to build a Barracks and a Tech-Lab is less than the time taken to collect 50/50. Ergo, you should start the upgrade at the same time when it costs more, you just have to cut 50/50 worth of stuff to do so. Again, time is not the issue, the units/buildings you are able to afford whilst hitting this timing are the issue.
Dude, you're trying to reason with Avilo...it's kinda hopeless.
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On November 09 2011 07:26 avilo wrote:
It's making me facepalm in patch threads/discussion threads where there are people that don't understand basic math/logic/reasoning that do not understand what cheaper upgrades on a forge/ebay/armory mean.
With a lower upgrade cost, when people say you are "getting your upgrades faster" what they mean is you are getting them at an earlier point in the game than you normally would have them if they were not that cheap.
With cheaper forge upgrades, you get them earlier in the game than you normally would - this is fucking common sense that apparently a huge percentage of TL patch thread posters do not have...
Stop with your "i get 1 less stalker bla bla bla" NO. NO!!!! NOOOO!!! My brain is bleeding reading that shit.
Since the people that still have no common sense are still thinking, "omg u get the upgrades at the same time," NO YOU DON'T. You get them sooner in the game!!!!1!!! I will provide you a comparison/analogy so your mediocre protoss brain can wrap your head around it.
Imagine blizzard reduced the stim upgrade cost to 50/50. You will be able to start research on this upgrade much earlier in the game than you would be able to if it cost 100/100.
This is all...common...fucking...sense. Use your brain instead of your balance bias to make posts about patch changes.
TLDR: When upgrades are made cheaper, you can start research on them at an earlier point in the game than you would be able to if they were more expensive. aka they will finish sooner than in the current game.
That is all.
Chill pill yo. Just ignore 90% of the Protoss who have their minds boggled by this. They don't realize getting upgrades sooner -> you go winning TvPs -> all good.
But seriously, chill out.
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On November 09 2011 08:00 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 07:52 TheToast wrote:On November 09 2011 07:38 ondik wrote:
It was never a question IF we can get the upgrades faster, but HOW much faster. I think your superb terran brain can easily count how faster it is to get 50 minerals and 50 gas while being on 2 bases preparing for sick 2-2 timing attack that will totally change the game because of cheaper upgrades. This is exactly what I thought. I suppose it is possible that being 50-/50 cheaper that this could introduce some kind of a timing window earlier on. But I have a strange feeling Blizz looked at these changes very closely before introducing them, and as such I highly doubt any wacky timing window exists. In any case, it's all theorycrafting without any replays or VODs. You don't need replays or VODS!!!!! @_@ facepalms. Lol. Another aspect that people do not seem to understand about upgrades, is it's not all about the 50/50 or whatever the hell you are mining. It's about acquiring that lump sum of cash for the level 2/level 3 upgrades. When they are cheaper...it's much easier to save up to that sum of money to purchase the upgrades...so in many instances where saving that lump sum might fuck you up because you needed to purchase other things, you will be more easily able to afford the cheaper upgrades, which in turn means you'll end up with them finished more often at sooner points in the game than you would pre 1.4.2. No replays or VODs needed! You don't even need a goddamn DeLorean at 88 mph to figure this shit out.
At your level of play... 50 minerals for +2 doesn't even matter, you've probably fucked up enough by then to not feel any difference.. Dude you float minerals throughout the game, what are you arguing, milliseconds?
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Lol avilo isn't in bronze man.
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On November 09 2011 09:12 Probe1 wrote:
Lol avilo isn't in bronze man.
Who says he is? He's your typical C/C+ iccup user with negative record switched to sc2 terran, I don't know who's better - him or that 14 yr old bunny guy.
If you're telling me he's suddenly macroing like a pro and spending all of his money I'm just not going to believe you. Even pros float minerals lol. Not like it matters in sc2.
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ok so im confused, patch is OP because toss gets like 5-10 extra stalkers out right?
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On November 09 2011 07:47 Gatored wrote:
The level 1 upgrades were untouched for attack and armor. By the time those 2 upgrades are done protoss has the money to upgrade to 2/2 (with the new patch or without). Therefore protoss will not have any quicker upgrades than before the patch.
Edit: The only worthwhile upgrades you get in PvT is attack and armor. If you really think 50/50 for both level 2 upgrades and 100/100 for level 3 upgrades are gonna break the game then I don't know what to say anymore.
Avilo why won't you respond to this one?
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LoL this thread backfired big time
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EPT
