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On November 05 2011 04:28 MonkSEA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 04:17 Kashll wrote:On November 05 2011 03:36 MASSivezTV wrote:On November 05 2011 03:36 VPCursed wrote:
You need to learn how to hold everything off if you want to be able to compete at gm/high masters level. Ladder is very good practice. This is true, but at the same time, as you get into higher leagues macro games are much more prevalent. Lol I'm high masters and i get 2 base all inned at least half of my games. Last 4 GMs i've played have all-inned me or done some very aggressive timing attack. I'm in the same boat. I always go for long macro games because I, actually want to get better. Then you scout some gateway timing attack, 1 base marine/scv all-in or 1 base ling/bane all-in and you're just like... wtf?
well, if you didnt defeat that all-in then you werent better than the allin, and therefore wouldnt you say you still need to practice against all-ins as well as macro games?
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
Zerg may not have the first 5 minute abuses that the other two races have (bar 6pool) but against Protoss Zerg have multiple 2 and 3 base all ins.
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Well, you say things like "there is almost only cheese in diamond league", but really, if you are good enough to practice with high master friends, you should be able to crush these cheeses and I doubt you would still be in diamond (it really doesn't take many games to go from diamond to master when you are really worth it).
If you are that good (high masters like your friend), just continue playing and you will be in master in no time. There is no reason you can't be. And then, you will have plenty of macro games (some cheeses from time to time, but it's part of the game). The ladder system is OK as it makes you practice against everything and be ready against everything since you don't have this "I know what style this player is using" feeling.
TL;DR: Most diamond cheeses are really easy to stop; if you can't stop them, then there is something you lack. It's not the fault of the ladder if you can't play a macro game because of the league you're stuck in.
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Wait, didn't you just open up a thread a few months ago about solving 4 gates in PvP? How many races do you play a high level 
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On November 05 2011 04:43 Probe1 wrote:Wait, didn't you just open up a thread a few months ago about solving 4 gates in PvP? How many races do you play a high level
he's really good at sc2 alright?
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I agree with you Massivez. If you aren't good enough to learn how to stop cheese from diamond level players you probably should quit the game. At higher levels the cheeses get a lot better and more mind-fucky transitions into macro. If you can't learn to stop cannon rushes... maybe you should just spectate and enjoy sc2 that way. Hope you feel better~
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your Country52797 Posts
On November 05 2011 04:43 Probe1 wrote:Wait, didn't you just open up a thread a few months ago about solving 4 gates in PvP? How many races do you play a high level
Random player maybe?
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Let me put it this way: either learn to deal with cheese or quit the game. Even at GrandMaster level you will get cheesed alot
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On November 05 2011 04:04 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted. But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat.
I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players.
Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive.
AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED.
More than once, too.
Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch.
._.
If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill.
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Ladder isn't optimal practice, but definitely not for the reasons you listed. If you can't deal with mass cheese at diamond, what are you going to do in masters if someone actually has a refined cheese build order/micro.
And forcing your high masters friends to play with you when you can't deal with diamond cheese is probably worse practice than ladder; your friends can do almost anything they want with 0 refinement and still win, which means you either just get crushed by superior mechanics, or you only learn how to play against people that are screwing around/not using strategies you actually need to practice against.
On November 05 2011 05:12 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 04:04 Inori wrote:- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted. But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat. I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players. Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive. AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED. More than once, too. Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch. ._. If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill.
6 pool hits before a 12 rax even finishes. What are you talking about?
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On November 05 2011 05:12 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 04:04 Inori wrote:- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted. But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat. I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players. Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive. AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED. More than once, too. Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch. ._. If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill.
nah ive been 6pooled a couple of times and my wall is not up in time, but with good micro you'll still come out ahead even when the zerg pulls all his drones
i even got 6pooled by a Grandmaster
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It sounds to me like you don't understand what cheese is. It seems like they're just gaining an advantage on you early on because you leave yourself wide open.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +On November 05 2011 05:14 Validity wrote:Ladder isn't optimal practice, but definitely not for the reasons you listed. If you can't deal with mass cheese at diamond, what are you going to do in masters if someone actually has a refined cheese build order/micro. And forcing your high masters friends to play with you when you can't deal with diamond cheese is probably worse practice than ladder; your friends can do almost anything they want with 0 refinement and still win, which means you either just get crushed by superior mechanics, or you only learn how to play against people that are screwing around/not using strategies you actually need to practice against. Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 05:12 Blazinghand wrote:On November 05 2011 04:04 Inori wrote:- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted. But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat. I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players. Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive. AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED. More than once, too. Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch. ._. If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill. 6 pool hits before a 12 rax even finishes. What are you talking about? the 12 rax doesn't need to finish for your wall-off to be done-- it only need to start. It starts at about 1:30, and depending on the map, 6 pool usually hits after 3:10 when you start your 16 depot. 6 pool gets 6 lings out at 2:05, then it's a matter of getting to your base, which with regular zerglings takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 45 depending on the map. you can cancel a marine or geyser (or even your orbital command) and start a depot in time pretty easily if you're on a small map or spawned close. I have never been 6 pooled and had lings get into my base.
EDIT:
On November 05 2011 05:16 Pulimuli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 05:12 Blazinghand wrote:On November 05 2011 04:04 Inori wrote:- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted. But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat. I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players. Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive. AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED. More than once, too. Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch. ._. If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill. nah ive been 6pooled a couple of times and my wall is not up in time, but with good micro you'll still come out ahead even when the zerg pulls all his drones i even got 6pooled by a Grandmaster
Wait, is it really not possible to wall? I was always under the impression you could always get a wall up in time >.>
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What makes you think it's less? Masters players just have been scouting and response to cheese, so perhaps under that assumption they are choosing less cheese. There are also people who think that people in masters cheese less and therefore cheese more under the assumption that most masters players play a macro style.
Learning to beat cheese is the fastest way to get wins. You're just being stubborn if you want to continue to play your way and not adapt to your environment.
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i don't get your problem with cannon rushes...i played a lot a custom with a frriend who used to be ultra cheesy, cannoning almost 1/2 game, although it was very frustrating to lose now i thank him because i'm never losing to that now...when i see a protoss player going for a cannon rush i'm really happy i know that i'll end up being ahead.
14pool 16hatch...that is all..
Your issue with ZvZ is another thing, it's true that games when both players fast expand and get mass speedling can be quite dumb but this is how ZvZ is, right now i always get a baneling nest asap after speed or sometime i mass speedling myself while hidding them and hit a very strong timing when the speed upgrade finishes.
So yeah, defensive baneling or embrace the mass speedling war...that is all.
Also stop crying and go practice, the vast majority of pro players got there with laddering, the ladder is a very good way to practice/improve, you can test your builds/reaction/decision making against a lot of things, you have to scout, be reactive...be a zerg.
and also if you think that master/grand master is a lot less cheesy than diamond, you are wrong.
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if you can't beat diamond cheese then you can't beat the cheeses in master. no matter how well you feel you are, what league you're in is what you are. i'm quite sure your master friends (let alone pros) can defeat those diamond players easily 
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On November 05 2011 05:36 Blazinghand wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 05 2011 05:14 Validity wrote:Ladder isn't optimal practice, but definitely not for the reasons you listed. If you can't deal with mass cheese at diamond, what are you going to do in masters if someone actually has a refined cheese build order/micro. And forcing your high masters friends to play with you when you can't deal with diamond cheese is probably worse practice than ladder; your friends can do almost anything they want with 0 refinement and still win, which means you either just get crushed by superior mechanics, or you only learn how to play against people that are screwing around/not using strategies you actually need to practice against. Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 05:12 Blazinghand wrote:On November 05 2011 04:04 Inori wrote:- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted. But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat. I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players. Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive. AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED. More than once, too. Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch. ._. If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill. 6 pool hits before a 12 rax even finishes. What are you talking about? the 12 rax doesn't need to finish for your wall-off to be done-- it only need to start. It starts at about 1:30, and depending on the map, 6 pool usually hits after 3:10 when you start your 16 depot. 6 pool gets 6 lings out at 2:05, then it's a matter of getting to your base, which with regular zerglings takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 45 depending on the map. you can cancel a marine or geyser (or even your orbital command) and start a depot in time pretty easily if you're on a small map or spawned close. I have never been 6 pooled and had lings get into my base. EDIT: Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 05:16 Pulimuli wrote:On November 05 2011 05:12 Blazinghand wrote:On November 05 2011 04:04 Inori wrote:- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted. But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat. I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players. Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive. AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED. More than once, too. Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch. ._. If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill. nah ive been 6pooled a couple of times and my wall is not up in time, but with good micro you'll still come out ahead even when the zerg pulls all his drones i even got 6pooled by a Grandmaster Wait, is it really not possible to wall? I was always under the impression you could always get a wall up in time >.>
i guess it depends on the map but this was antiga shipyard close pos and my 2nd depot wasnt started yet.
If you delay your orbital or go gasless then i think 2nd depot will be up in time
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If you lose to an all-in you were playing too greedy, or didn't scout well enough, or didn't read/react well enough etc. Every game can help you improve if you have the right attitude.
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You are making a post about wanting to get better but use the word 'cheese' six times in your post. Remove that word from your vocabulary and start blaming your losses on you being the worse of the two players in a particular game. I think that would be a good place to start. Taking full responsibility for your losses can be an awesome tool, even if the game can be somewhat imbalanced in certain respects. Being in diamond there are obviously so many places for you to improve that balance discussion or thought should never even enter your head. It's all fundamentals at that point, or lack there of.
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EPT
