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The worst way to improve is not ladder, it is your attitude. I'll explain this in a bit.
I am (was) a master zerg. I recently switched to terran and got demoted in diamond, but I'm probably more around platinum level.
Cheese is much more powerful in masters than in diamond. It's not more common in either league; it's simply different; both because it's executed better, and more powerful in general - some builds are simply not very effective so you see them less and less when you move up, and they are replaced by better builds. What IS more common is lower leagues is a lack of proper transitions and long-term plans, because many people only know what to do until a certain point, which yes, could be "build a gateway in his base", but could also be "get this and this and attack on 2 bases". But builds deliberately designed as "cheese" are not especially more common.
If you lose to bad builds, badly executed, you need to improve. The only way to stop losing to them is to play against them.
To me it is very clear that you deny "responsibility" for your losses by a) using a very lax definition of cheese and b) deciding that, somehow, a loss against cheese doesn't count as a "real" loss.
It's OK to be mad for losing, nobody likes a loss. However you should realize that the challenge is against yourself. You are not trying to prove a point by gaining ladder points. You are trying to prove a point by beating a game that you couldn't have beaten just a week ago. This is called improving. If you lose every time someone cannon rushes you, you are not improving, and it is YOUR problem, not the stupid cheeser's. If you lose to it less and less often, you will also encounter it less and less often, because a cannon rush is just not a very effective strategy. Hence why cheese is of no impediment whatsoever to learning and improvement.
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im either
A) switching races so maybe i can put early pressure on, because zerg sucks at that
or
B) just stop playing, kinda disappointed that i found out about this game a year ago but at the same time im not, idk.
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On November 05 2011 03:44 MASSivezTV wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 03:41 Cruncharoo wrote:On November 05 2011 03:36 MASSivezTV wrote:On November 05 2011 03:36 VPCursed wrote:
You need to learn how to hold everything off if you want to be able to compete at gm/high masters level. Ladder is very good practice. This is true, but at the same time, as you get into higher leagues macro games are much more prevalent. So 1) learn to hold cheese 2) get promoted 3) play macro games Seems like these are sequential if everyone cheeses at your level. The hardest cheese for me to hold is a cannon wall / at nat from protoss
You can counter that by placing an overlord at your natural or tagging his probe.If it's at the bottom of the ramp and you didn't patrol a drone (you greedy,greedy Zerg  ) you can just do the mineral trick and easily break it.
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On November 05 2011 06:17 MASSivezTV wrote:
im either
A) switching races so maybe i can put early pressure on, because zerg sucks at that
or
B) just stop playing, kinda disappointed that i found out about this game a year ago but at the same time im not, idk.
Zerg doesn't really suck at that you either don't know how to do it or you don't get the opportunity since you complain about cheese all the time.You don't deserve to play macro if you can't hold off cheese.
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On November 05 2011 05:36 Blazinghand wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 05 2011 05:14 Validity wrote:Ladder isn't optimal practice, but definitely not for the reasons you listed. If you can't deal with mass cheese at diamond, what are you going to do in masters if someone actually has a refined cheese build order/micro. And forcing your high masters friends to play with you when you can't deal with diamond cheese is probably worse practice than ladder; your friends can do almost anything they want with 0 refinement and still win, which means you either just get crushed by superior mechanics, or you only learn how to play against people that are screwing around/not using strategies you actually need to practice against. Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 05:12 Blazinghand wrote:On November 05 2011 04:04 Inori wrote:- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted. But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat. I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players. Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive. AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED. More than once, too. Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch. ._. If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill. 6 pool hits before a 12 rax even finishes. What are you talking about? the 12 rax doesn't need to finish for your wall-off to be done-- it only need to start. It starts at about 1:30, and depending on the map, 6 pool usually hits after 3:10 when you start your 16 depot. 6 pool gets 6 lings out at 2:05, then it's a matter of getting to your base, which with regular zerglings takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 45 depending on the map. you can cancel a marine or geyser (or even your orbital command) and start a depot in time pretty easily if you're on a small map or spawned close. I have never been 6 pooled and had lings get into my base. Wait, is it really not possible to wall? I was always under the impression you could always get a wall up in time >.>
Have you been getting your second depot instead of your orbital or something? Standard terran is 10 depot 12 rax 15 orbital 16 depot (2nd). Unless you meant gasless where you can build your 2nd depot at 14, but you said "depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot" which makes me very confused.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On November 05 2011 06:22 Validity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 05:36 Blazinghand wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 05 2011 05:14 Validity wrote:Ladder isn't optimal practice, but definitely not for the reasons you listed. If you can't deal with mass cheese at diamond, what are you going to do in masters if someone actually has a refined cheese build order/micro. And forcing your high masters friends to play with you when you can't deal with diamond cheese is probably worse practice than ladder; your friends can do almost anything they want with 0 refinement and still win, which means you either just get crushed by superior mechanics, or you only learn how to play against people that are screwing around/not using strategies you actually need to practice against. Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 05:12 Blazinghand wrote:On November 05 2011 04:04 Inori wrote:- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted. But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat. I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players. Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive. AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED. More than once, too. Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch. ._. If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill. 6 pool hits before a 12 rax even finishes. What are you talking about? the 12 rax doesn't need to finish for your wall-off to be done-- it only need to start. It starts at about 1:30, and depending on the map, 6 pool usually hits after 3:10 when you start your 16 depot. 6 pool gets 6 lings out at 2:05, then it's a matter of getting to your base, which with regular zerglings takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 45 depending on the map. you can cancel a marine or geyser (or even your orbital command) and start a depot in time pretty easily if you're on a small map or spawned close. I have never been 6 pooled and had lings get into my base. Wait, is it really not possible to wall? I was always under the impression you could always get a wall up in time >.> Have you been getting your second depot instead of your orbital or something? Standard terran is 10 depot 12 rax 15 orbital 16 depot (2nd). Unless you meant gasless where you can build your 2nd depot at 14, but you said "depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot" which makes me very confused.
Against a 6 pool, cancel the orbital and use the extra money to finish your wall-off if he's going to arrive before your normal 2nd depot timing. It's economically effecient to do so since you won't lose any scvs that way.
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On November 05 2011 06:25 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 06:22 Validity wrote:On November 05 2011 05:36 Blazinghand wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 05 2011 05:14 Validity wrote:Ladder isn't optimal practice, but definitely not for the reasons you listed. If you can't deal with mass cheese at diamond, what are you going to do in masters if someone actually has a refined cheese build order/micro. And forcing your high masters friends to play with you when you can't deal with diamond cheese is probably worse practice than ladder; your friends can do almost anything they want with 0 refinement and still win, which means you either just get crushed by superior mechanics, or you only learn how to play against people that are screwing around/not using strategies you actually need to practice against. Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 05:12 Blazinghand wrote:On November 05 2011 04:04 Inori wrote:- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted. But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat. I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players. Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive. AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED. More than once, too. Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch. ._. If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill. 6 pool hits before a 12 rax even finishes. What are you talking about? the 12 rax doesn't need to finish for your wall-off to be done-- it only need to start. It starts at about 1:30, and depending on the map, 6 pool usually hits after 3:10 when you start your 16 depot. 6 pool gets 6 lings out at 2:05, then it's a matter of getting to your base, which with regular zerglings takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 45 depending on the map. you can cancel a marine or geyser (or even your orbital command) and start a depot in time pretty easily if you're on a small map or spawned close. I have never been 6 pooled and had lings get into my base. Wait, is it really not possible to wall? I was always under the impression you could always get a wall up in time >.> Have you been getting your second depot instead of your orbital or something? Standard terran is 10 depot 12 rax 15 orbital 16 depot (2nd). Unless you meant gasless where you can build your 2nd depot at 14, but you said "depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot" which makes me very confused. Against a 6 pool, cancel the orbital and use the extra money to finish your wall-off if he's going to arrive before your normal 2nd depot timing. It's economically effecient to do so since you won't lose any scvs that way.
But that relies on scouting the zerg first/lucking out and running into his zerglings. 6 zerglings are pretty easy to kill with 15 scvs.
I don't wall in TvZ because I think the minerals are more useful than defence against a cheese that should never work. I've defended drone pull 6 pool with gas first fine on xnc in na gm
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On November 05 2011 06:43 Validity wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 06:25 Blazinghand wrote:On November 05 2011 06:22 Validity wrote:On November 05 2011 05:36 Blazinghand wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 05 2011 05:14 Validity wrote:Ladder isn't optimal practice, but definitely not for the reasons you listed. If you can't deal with mass cheese at diamond, what are you going to do in masters if someone actually has a refined cheese build order/micro. And forcing your high masters friends to play with you when you can't deal with diamond cheese is probably worse practice than ladder; your friends can do almost anything they want with 0 refinement and still win, which means you either just get crushed by superior mechanics, or you only learn how to play against people that are screwing around/not using strategies you actually need to practice against. Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 05:12 Blazinghand wrote:On November 05 2011 04:04 Inori wrote:- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted. But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat. I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players. Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive. AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED. More than once, too. Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch. ._. If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill. 6 pool hits before a 12 rax even finishes. What are you talking about? the 12 rax doesn't need to finish for your wall-off to be done-- it only need to start. It starts at about 1:30, and depending on the map, 6 pool usually hits after 3:10 when you start your 16 depot. 6 pool gets 6 lings out at 2:05, then it's a matter of getting to your base, which with regular zerglings takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 45 depending on the map. you can cancel a marine or geyser (or even your orbital command) and start a depot in time pretty easily if you're on a small map or spawned close. I have never been 6 pooled and had lings get into my base. Wait, is it really not possible to wall? I was always under the impression you could always get a wall up in time >.> Have you been getting your second depot instead of your orbital or something? Standard terran is 10 depot 12 rax 15 orbital 16 depot (2nd). Unless you meant gasless where you can build your 2nd depot at 14, but you said "depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot" which makes me very confused. Against a 6 pool, cancel the orbital and use the extra money to finish your wall-off if he's going to arrive before your normal 2nd depot timing. It's economically effecient to do so since you won't lose any scvs that way. But that relies on scouting the zerg first/lucking out and running into his zerglings. 6 zerglings are pretty easy to kill with 15 scvs. I don't wall in TvZ because I think the minerals are more useful than defence against a cheese that should never work. I've defended drone pull 6 pool with gas first fine on xnc in na gm
Yeah that's also a good strat. Also if you open with any sort of 2 rax (12/14 even) you will have a wall up, also same with a 1 rax FE. Basically the only time you won't automatically auto-win against 6 pool as terran is if you're mining gas
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people in high masters think that they can get away getting 3rd base at 8 minute vs non fast expo build
and when you own them, they will rage at you as they think that master is NR15 or something like that and when opportunity happens, i will allin for a sure win
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On November 05 2011 03:36 MASSivezTV wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2011 03:36 VPCursed wrote:
You need to learn how to hold everything off if you want to be able to compete at gm/high masters level. Ladder is very good practice. This is true, but at the same time, as you get into higher leagues macro games are much more prevalent.
lol watch a top tier player stream. Very rarely is it a straight up FE vs FE macro game. Infact, most times it's a 1 or 2 base timing attack that wins or loses the game.
And if protoss is cannon rushing you, I bet you are hatch firsting and not going pool gas lol
Oh, and terran stopping all ins with a wall...yes we stop 6/7/9/10 pools. We cannot stop roach ling if we hellion, or roach ling bane 2 base bust if cut tanks, or a 2 base econ bane bust if we skip tanks and go to medics first..
etc etc. Just learn to play better, is the only option. Ladder is great practice.
Have you been getting your second depot instead of your orbital or something? Standard terran is 10 depot 12 rax 15 orbital 16 depot (2nd). Unless you meant gasless where you can build your 2nd depot at 14, but you said "depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot" which makes me very confused.
I do depot rax gas depot OC and get that extra scv to make it 16, 17 with marine when I OC
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Make custom game "No rush 20 mins". There you go.
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I've been on the border of Diamond and Master for the past season. I feel like a Mexican being separated from his family in America across the border. Everyone looks at us Diamond players as absolute shit so I know how you feel. It's either you're Masters or you're irrelevant from my experience.
I think you may be on a lower tier in Diamond from where I am, because people gradually move out of their cheesy phase. But people still do it... I've managed to beat someone who has cannoned me in without having to do that drone drill trick so it felt great, but obnoxious as hell. Wonky timing pushes are super prevalent and absolutely horrendously annoying. Several times I muttered out personal insults (I refrained from typing out) over skype as my friends bore witness to the shit you face on the ladder.
In the end I resorted to simply just blindly making units because my opponent is bound to do some kind timing attack that may outright kill me. Sadly I'm just doing it blindly, although it is probably standard to scout the push have enough to defend (that's why I'm still in Diamond, hilarious isn't it). The other day some bastard decided to do a huge Marine Marauder Hellion push with a late expo. All I had were like 7 mutas and a handful of zerglings. I quickly sniped his marines and cleaned up after he killed 40 fucking drones. Because his nat expo was late he was mining out in his main while I was bringing my fourth up.
From then on this dude just fell apart after his first push. This son of a bitch thought he was entitled to a win after making an easy to do all-in push that caught me off guard. He caught me off guard- he should be on even ground with me after killing 40 drones. No, I friggin rolled him. I humiliated him by multitasking with banelings and lings in his nat and my clump of mutas in his main. I blew up all his scvs. I made him hole up in his main to the 24 minute mark before A-Moving my stupid amount of banelings through his base.
I use my anger and hatred for players like that to go through a day on the ladder. These people are garbage in my eyes, and you should bathe in their loss. And I tell myself I'm worse than garbage when I lose to them in order to keep myself humble.
Being in Diamond is worse than being in Gold imo, it means that you're trying hard to play competitively but fail if you don't get into Masters. That's just how I see it, I hate seeing it that way too but that's how I really feel. Fucking sad.
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On November 05 2011 10:21 Snuggles wrote:
I've been on the border of Diamond and Master for the past season. I feel like a Mexican being separated from his family in America across the border. Everyone looks at us Diamond players as absolute shit so I know how you feel. It's either you're Masters or you're irrelevant from my experience.
I think you may be on a lower tier in Diamond from where I am, because people gradually move out of their cheesy phase. But people still do it... I've managed to beat someone who has cannoned me in without having to do that drone drill trick so it felt great, but obnoxious as hell. Wonky timing pushes are super prevalent and absolutely horrendously annoying. Several times I muttered out personal insults (I refrained from typing out) over skype as my friends bore witness to the shit you face on the ladder.
In the end I resorted to simply just blindly making units because my opponent is bound to do some kind timing attack that may outright kill me. Sadly I'm just doing it blindly, although it is probably standard to scout the push have enough to defend (that's why I'm still in Diamond, hilarious isn't it). The other day some bastard decided to do a huge Marine Marauder Hellion push with a late expo. All I had were like 7 mutas and a handful of zerglings. I quickly sniped his marines and cleaned up after he killed 40 fucking drones. Because his nat expo was late he was mining out in his main while I was bringing my fourth up.
From then on this dude just fell apart after his first push. This son of a bitch thought he was entitled to a win after making an easy to do all-in push that caught me off guard. He caught me off guard- he should be on even ground with me after killing 40 drones. No, I friggin rolled him. I humiliated him by multitasking with banelings and lings in his nat and my clump of mutas in his main. I blew up all his scvs. I made him hole up in his main to the 24 minute mark before A-Moving my stupid amount of banelings through his base.
I use my anger and hatred for players like that to go through a day on the ladder. These people are garbage in my eyes, and you should bathe in their loss. And I tell myself I'm worse than garbage when I lose to them in order to keep myself humble.
Being in Diamond is worse than being in Gold imo, it means that you're trying hard to play competitively but fail if you don't get into Masters. That's just how I see it, I hate seeing it that way too but that's how I really feel. Fucking sad.
HURRAH SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS<3333333333333333333333333333333333
i agree 100% its ridiculous
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Dont give them the chance to cannon cheese you? Just start out with more aggressive builds.
7pool,
make 3 drones (micro them all so they are 2 on closest patches for gosuness)
when 9/10 drone comes out send him to scout where the lord isnt. Pay attention to scout probe directions and timing of it.
when pool is almost done (about 120 minerals or so) make 2 extractors
make 2 sets of lings, should have like 35 minerals and then make another set of lings
cancel both extractors and make the drones mine again.
rally lings to middle of the map. and then to the ramp of the base you find.
make a lord when lings are running out to mid.
Now when lord pops you need to save larva a bit until you scout if you should continue to spam lings or to make drones and a queen asap.
If they are cannon rushing or some garbage you will just win. If they are trying to cannon wall to expand you will use scout drone to delay and deny placement for lings to bust through before he can wall or before the canon goes up.
If you get inside just run around avoiding conflict just delaying mining time until you have like 12 lings or something.
try to take out key bldgs and solo zealots obviously. Micro the lings so they take 2 hits and run away from 3rd hit.
Most of the time they will make a canon in their minerals and take plan B of 1 base play. They will most likely 4 gate or void rush. Just sac a lord at 7 min to find out which it is. meanwhile making 15 drones and gas and 2nd hatch and continuing to macro up and play a normal game. get speed for lings, a roach warren, and an evo chamber. and be ready to start massing roaches and lings around 30 supply or so if they are 4 gating. You can even make a few spines and shit if you want. If voids just toss a few spores around and make an extra queen or two and spread creeps.
Beware for DT builds as well, so spores help there too since your lair will be later.
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EPT
