Note: This is mostly my opinion with a little bit of rant thrown in there, if you cannot accept that, don't read this blog.
About myself: - I'm a Diamond level Zerg player - I get cannon cheesed nearly every game against Protoss, and even if I end up breaking through, they still win (either voids or gateway timing)
My Opinion on Zerg: - I feel like they're the easiest macro race, but they are extremely vulnerable to cheese. Terran can wall off and shut down nearly EVERY cheese there is (6pool, cannons(lol marines have guns)) you name it, except maybe roach rushes but still... they have bunkers come on now. - I feel like playing Zerg on the North American aka "I play this game to not improve" ladder gets someone nowhere, and that you won't improve that much unless it comes to holding off cheeses and retarded timings. - They have no solid cheese to do back at other Protoss / Terran players besides maybe a roach rush.
MY EXPERIENCES in Diamond League on the NA ladder: - First off, everyone cheeses. I get a macro game maybe 3-4 out of every 10 games. - 9/10 Protoss players may as well be Deezer, doing retarded shit every game. - ZvZ is a toss up, most people just make nonstop lings which is the most unenjoyable thing ever besides the Protoss players. - ZvT is fine, Terran players actually play smart like people should be doing.
What I am forced to do to improve: - I have a few friends who are high Master level players, so I'm forced to practice with them and get better that way.. ladder is pointless stuff that is just wasting your time, which makes the game not fun to play at all. - Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted. - There are some days when I don't get vs'd against retarded people and it's so fun, but days like today, it can be non stop retarded stuff that as a zerg player youre being forced to hold back
So thats my opinion/rant about the moronic players on the NA ladder.
On November 05 2011 03:36 VPCursed wrote: You need to learn how to hold everything off if you want to be able to compete at gm/high masters level. Ladder is very good practice.
This is true, but at the same time, as you get into higher leagues macro games are much more prevalent.
On November 05 2011 03:36 VPCursed wrote: You need to learn how to hold everything off if you want to be able to compete at gm/high masters level. Ladder is very good practice.
This is true, but at the same time, as you get into higher leagues macro games are much more prevalent.
So 1) learn to hold cheese 2) get promoted 3) play macro games
Seems like these are sequential if everyone cheeses at your level.
On November 05 2011 03:36 VPCursed wrote: You need to learn how to hold everything off if you want to be able to compete at gm/high masters level. Ladder is very good practice.
This is true, but at the same time, as you get into higher leagues macro games are much more prevalent.
So 1) learn to hold cheese 2) get promoted 3) play macro games
Seems like these are sequential if everyone cheeses at your level.
The hardest cheese for me to hold is a cannon wall / at nat from protoss
On November 05 2011 03:36 VPCursed wrote: You need to learn how to hold everything off if you want to be able to compete at gm/high masters level. Ladder is very good practice.
This is true, but at the same time, as you get into higher leagues macro games are much more prevalent.
Actually I've found exactly the opposite to be true. I am cheesed a ton more than I ever was in diamond. And some of these are very refined and much more difficult to hold off.
A Zerg complimenting Terran play? Never thought that day would come. Though, ladder is really important because you get to learn all the wacky possibilities of the game. Just don't take the losses too seriously and try to keep getting better at laddering. Because earlygame is just as important as any other aspect of the game.
On November 05 2011 03:36 VPCursed wrote: You need to learn how to hold everything off if you want to be able to compete at gm/high masters level. Ladder is very good practice.
This is true, but at the same time, as you get into higher leagues macro games are much more prevalent.
So 1) learn to hold cheese 2) get promoted 3) play macro games
Seems like these are sequential if everyone cheeses at your level.
The hardest cheese for me to hold is a cannon wall / at nat from protoss
Pull all your drones off mineral line, right click on a mineral patch at your nat, that will have all your drones stack. Then quickly attack one pylon. Repeat, fast.
You can also open pool first into 15 hatch. It's not that far behind in terms of economy and is safe against most cheese (2 gate, cannon rush)
Protip get a partner and practice against cannon rushes. You need to be able beat it handily everytime you see it and that the learning process gets a lot easier if you can get a friend to execute it against you. Once you pass that barrier you will have a much easier time identifying and destroying cannon cheese.
Please stop revealing the universally kept secret that once you get out of bronze/silver/gold/platinum people stop cheesing and play macro games. It's the only motivation for new players to keep trying in the face of adversity.
The cannon-contain-counter seems to only work on Shakuras, from what I've seen.
The randoms you face in diamond pale in comparison to what you would encounter in Grandmasters as a streamer. Imagine someone who knows where you spawn from the very start of the game, knows what you're doing, and has a somewhat-well-thought-out gameplan that revolves around getting off a pylon wall-in, then slowly abusing you for the rest of the game while never losing that initial advantage, and never being caught off-guard by your tech options.
Trust me, you could annihilate the scrubs you're facing with just a little extra bit of heart added into your game. Keep at it, and you'll get your star soon enough.
So your game strategy at start is hoping that opponent is playing macro game with lack of aggression. You might as well go 3 hatch before pool if thats true (or 2 hatch before pool).
NO!
When you start defeating these cheeses from protoss players guess what will happen? You are like ah another easy win and you get to Masters quickly.
1. Refine and master your Early game stage. 2. Then get better with middle game stage 3. After completing 1. and 2. you will get more of these games if you haven't beat your opponent already.
On November 05 2011 03:36 VPCursed wrote: You need to learn how to hold everything off if you want to be able to compete at gm/high masters level. Ladder is very good practice.
This is true, but at the same time, as you get into higher leagues macro games are much more prevalent.
Lol I'm high masters and i get 2 base all inned at least half of my games. Last 4 GMs i've played have all-inned me or done some very aggressive timing attack.
On November 05 2011 03:36 VPCursed wrote: You need to learn how to hold everything off if you want to be able to compete at gm/high masters level. Ladder is very good practice.
This is true, but at the same time, as you get into higher leagues macro games are much more prevalent.
Lol I'm high masters and i get 2 base all inned at least half of my games. Last 4 GMs i've played have all-inned me or done some very aggressive timing attack.
I'm in the same boat. I always go for long macro games because I, actually want to get better. Then you scout some gateway timing attack, 1 base marine/scv all-in or 1 base ling/bane all-in and you're just like... wtf?
Ladder is good general practice as it exposes you to literally everything out there.
But it's not very good if you want to work on honing specific things. For example, if the next step to improving your game is learning how to hold off a 7-gate protoss timing, you might face this 1 out of every 15 games on the ladder. which is very inefficient. In this case, it's best to get a practice partner so he can 7gate you game after game after game to really hone down those specialized skills that you want to work on.
On November 05 2011 03:36 VPCursed wrote: You need to learn how to hold everything off if you want to be able to compete at gm/high masters level. Ladder is very good practice.
This is true, but at the same time, as you get into higher leagues macro games are much more prevalent.
Lol I'm high masters and i get 2 base all inned at least half of my games. Last 4 GMs i've played have all-inned me or done some very aggressive timing attack.
I'm in the same boat. I always go for long macro games because I, actually want to get better. Then you scout some gateway timing attack, 1 base marine/scv all-in or 1 base ling/bane all-in and you're just like... wtf?
well, if you didnt defeat that all-in then you werent better than the allin, and therefore wouldnt you say you still need to practice against all-ins as well as macro games?
Well, you say things like "there is almost only cheese in diamond league", but really, if you are good enough to practice with high master friends, you should be able to crush these cheeses and I doubt you would still be in diamond (it really doesn't take many games to go from diamond to master when you are really worth it).
If you are that good (high masters like your friend), just continue playing and you will be in master in no time. There is no reason you can't be. And then, you will have plenty of macro games (some cheeses from time to time, but it's part of the game). The ladder system is OK as it makes you practice against everything and be ready against everything since you don't have this "I know what style this player is using" feeling.
TL;DR: Most diamond cheeses are really easy to stop; if you can't stop them, then there is something you lack. It's not the fault of the ladder if you can't play a macro game because of the league you're stuck in.
On November 05 2011 04:43 Probe1 wrote: Wait, didn't you just open up a thread a few months ago about solving 4 gates in PvP? How many races do you play a high level
I agree with you Massivez. If you aren't good enough to learn how to stop cheese from diamond level players you probably should quit the game. At higher levels the cheeses get a lot better and more mind-fucky transitions into macro. If you can't learn to stop cannon rushes... maybe you should just spectate and enjoy sc2 that way. Hope you feel better~
On November 05 2011 04:43 Probe1 wrote: Wait, didn't you just open up a thread a few months ago about solving 4 gates in PvP? How many races do you play a high level
- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted.
But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat.
I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players.
Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive.
AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED.
More than once, too.
Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch.
._.
If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill.
Ladder isn't optimal practice, but definitely not for the reasons you listed. If you can't deal with mass cheese at diamond, what are you going to do in masters if someone actually has a refined cheese build order/micro.
And forcing your high masters friends to play with you when you can't deal with diamond cheese is probably worse practice than ladder; your friends can do almost anything they want with 0 refinement and still win, which means you either just get crushed by superior mechanics, or you only learn how to play against people that are screwing around/not using strategies you actually need to practice against.
- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted.
But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat.
I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players.
Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive.
AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED.
More than once, too.
Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch.
._.
If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill.
6 pool hits before a 12 rax even finishes. What are you talking about?
- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted.
But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat.
I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players.
Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive.
AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED.
More than once, too.
Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch.
._.
If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill.
nah ive been 6pooled a couple of times and my wall is not up in time, but with good micro you'll still come out ahead even when the zerg pulls all his drones
It sounds to me like you don't understand what cheese is. It seems like they're just gaining an advantage on you early on because you leave yourself wide open.
On November 05 2011 05:14 Validity wrote: Ladder isn't optimal practice, but definitely not for the reasons you listed. If you can't deal with mass cheese at diamond, what are you going to do in masters if someone actually has a refined cheese build order/micro.
And forcing your high masters friends to play with you when you can't deal with diamond cheese is probably worse practice than ladder; your friends can do almost anything they want with 0 refinement and still win, which means you either just get crushed by superior mechanics, or you only learn how to play against people that are screwing around/not using strategies you actually need to practice against.
- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted.
But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat.
I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players.
Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive.
AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED.
More than once, too.
Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch.
._.
If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill.
6 pool hits before a 12 rax even finishes. What are you talking about?
the 12 rax doesn't need to finish for your wall-off to be done-- it only need to start. It starts at about 1:30, and depending on the map, 6 pool usually hits after 3:10 when you start your 16 depot.
6 pool gets 6 lings out at 2:05, then it's a matter of getting to your base, which with regular zerglings takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 45 depending on the map. you can cancel a marine or geyser (or even your orbital command) and start a depot in time pretty easily if you're on a small map or spawned close.
I have never been 6 pooled and had lings get into my base.
- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted.
But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat.
I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players.
Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive.
AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED.
More than once, too.
Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch.
._.
If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill.
nah ive been 6pooled a couple of times and my wall is not up in time, but with good micro you'll still come out ahead even when the zerg pulls all his drones
i even got 6pooled by a Grandmaster
Wait, is it really not possible to wall? I was always under the impression you could always get a wall up in time >.>
What makes you think it's less? Masters players just have been scouting and response to cheese, so perhaps under that assumption they are choosing less cheese. There are also people who think that people in masters cheese less and therefore cheese more under the assumption that most masters players play a macro style.
Learning to beat cheese is the fastest way to get wins. You're just being stubborn if you want to continue to play your way and not adapt to your environment.
i don't get your problem with cannon rushes...i played a lot a custom with a frriend who used to be ultra cheesy, cannoning almost 1/2 game, although it was very frustrating to lose now i thank him because i'm never losing to that now...when i see a protoss player going for a cannon rush i'm really happy i know that i'll end up being ahead.
14pool 16hatch...that is all..
Your issue with ZvZ is another thing, it's true that games when both players fast expand and get mass speedling can be quite dumb but this is how ZvZ is, right now i always get a baneling nest asap after speed or sometime i mass speedling myself while hidding them and hit a very strong timing when the speed upgrade finishes.
So yeah, defensive baneling or embrace the mass speedling war...that is all.
Also stop crying and go practice, the vast majority of pro players got there with laddering, the ladder is a very good way to practice/improve, you can test your builds/reaction/decision making against a lot of things, you have to scout, be reactive...be a zerg.
and also if you think that master/grand master is a lot less cheesy than diamond, you are wrong.
if you can't beat diamond cheese then you can't beat the cheeses in master. no matter how well you feel you are, what league you're in is what you are. i'm quite sure your master friends (let alone pros) can defeat those diamond players easily
On November 05 2011 05:14 Validity wrote: Ladder isn't optimal practice, but definitely not for the reasons you listed. If you can't deal with mass cheese at diamond, what are you going to do in masters if someone actually has a refined cheese build order/micro.
And forcing your high masters friends to play with you when you can't deal with diamond cheese is probably worse practice than ladder; your friends can do almost anything they want with 0 refinement and still win, which means you either just get crushed by superior mechanics, or you only learn how to play against people that are screwing around/not using strategies you actually need to practice against.
- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted.
But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat.
I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players.
Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive.
AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED.
More than once, too.
Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch.
._.
If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill.
6 pool hits before a 12 rax even finishes. What are you talking about?
the 12 rax doesn't need to finish for your wall-off to be done-- it only need to start. It starts at about 1:30, and depending on the map, 6 pool usually hits after 3:10 when you start your 16 depot.
6 pool gets 6 lings out at 2:05, then it's a matter of getting to your base, which with regular zerglings takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 45 depending on the map. you can cancel a marine or geyser (or even your orbital command) and start a depot in time pretty easily if you're on a small map or spawned close.
I have never been 6 pooled and had lings get into my base.
- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted.
But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat.
I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players.
Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive.
AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED.
More than once, too.
Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch.
._.
If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill.
nah ive been 6pooled a couple of times and my wall is not up in time, but with good micro you'll still come out ahead even when the zerg pulls all his drones
i even got 6pooled by a Grandmaster
Wait, is it really not possible to wall? I was always under the impression you could always get a wall up in time >.>
i guess it depends on the map but this was antiga shipyard close pos and my 2nd depot wasnt started yet.
If you delay your orbital or go gasless then i think 2nd depot will be up in time
If you lose to an all-in you were playing too greedy, or didn't scout well enough, or didn't read/react well enough etc. Every game can help you improve if you have the right attitude.
You are making a post about wanting to get better but use the word 'cheese' six times in your post. Remove that word from your vocabulary and start blaming your losses on you being the worse of the two players in a particular game. I think that would be a good place to start. Taking full responsibility for your losses can be an awesome tool, even if the game can be somewhat imbalanced in certain respects. Being in diamond there are obviously so many places for you to improve that balance discussion or thought should never even enter your head. It's all fundamentals at that point, or lack there of.
The worst way to improve is not ladder, it is your attitude. I'll explain this in a bit.
I am (was) a master zerg. I recently switched to terran and got demoted in diamond, but I'm probably more around platinum level.
Cheese is much more powerful in masters than in diamond. It's not more common in either league; it's simply different; both because it's executed better, and more powerful in general - some builds are simply not very effective so you see them less and less when you move up, and they are replaced by better builds. What IS more common is lower leagues is a lack of proper transitions and long-term plans, because many people only know what to do until a certain point, which yes, could be "build a gateway in his base", but could also be "get this and this and attack on 2 bases". But builds deliberately designed as "cheese" are not especially more common.
If you lose to bad builds, badly executed, you need to improve. The only way to stop losing to them is to play against them.
To me it is very clear that you deny "responsibility" for your losses by a) using a very lax definition of cheese and b) deciding that, somehow, a loss against cheese doesn't count as a "real" loss. It's OK to be mad for losing, nobody likes a loss. However you should realize that the challenge is against yourself. You are not trying to prove a point by gaining ladder points. You are trying to prove a point by beating a game that you couldn't have beaten just a week ago. This is called improving. If you lose every time someone cannon rushes you, you are not improving, and it is YOUR problem, not the stupid cheeser's. If you lose to it less and less often, you will also encounter it less and less often, because a cannon rush is just not a very effective strategy. Hence why cheese is of no impediment whatsoever to learning and improvement.
On November 05 2011 03:36 VPCursed wrote: You need to learn how to hold everything off if you want to be able to compete at gm/high masters level. Ladder is very good practice.
This is true, but at the same time, as you get into higher leagues macro games are much more prevalent.
So 1) learn to hold cheese 2) get promoted 3) play macro games
Seems like these are sequential if everyone cheeses at your level.
The hardest cheese for me to hold is a cannon wall / at nat from protoss
You can counter that by placing an overlord at your natural or tagging his probe.If it's at the bottom of the ramp and you didn't patrol a drone (you greedy,greedy Zerg ) you can just do the mineral trick and easily break it.
On November 05 2011 06:17 MASSivezTV wrote: im either
A) switching races so maybe i can put early pressure on, because zerg sucks at that
or
B) just stop playing, kinda disappointed that i found out about this game a year ago but at the same time im not, idk.
Zerg doesn't really suck at that you either don't know how to do it or you don't get the opportunity since you complain about cheese all the time.You don't deserve to play macro if you can't hold off cheese.
On November 05 2011 05:14 Validity wrote: Ladder isn't optimal practice, but definitely not for the reasons you listed. If you can't deal with mass cheese at diamond, what are you going to do in masters if someone actually has a refined cheese build order/micro.
And forcing your high masters friends to play with you when you can't deal with diamond cheese is probably worse practice than ladder; your friends can do almost anything they want with 0 refinement and still win, which means you either just get crushed by superior mechanics, or you only learn how to play against people that are screwing around/not using strategies you actually need to practice against.
- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted.
But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat.
I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players.
Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive.
AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED.
More than once, too.
Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch.
._.
If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill.
6 pool hits before a 12 rax even finishes. What are you talking about?
the 12 rax doesn't need to finish for your wall-off to be done-- it only need to start. It starts at about 1:30, and depending on the map, 6 pool usually hits after 3:10 when you start your 16 depot.
6 pool gets 6 lings out at 2:05, then it's a matter of getting to your base, which with regular zerglings takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 45 depending on the map. you can cancel a marine or geyser (or even your orbital command) and start a depot in time pretty easily if you're on a small map or spawned close.
I have never been 6 pooled and had lings get into my base.
Wait, is it really not possible to wall? I was always under the impression you could always get a wall up in time >.>
Have you been getting your second depot instead of your orbital or something? Standard terran is 10 depot 12 rax 15 orbital 16 depot (2nd). Unless you meant gasless where you can build your 2nd depot at 14, but you said "depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot" which makes me very confused.
On November 05 2011 05:14 Validity wrote: Ladder isn't optimal practice, but definitely not for the reasons you listed. If you can't deal with mass cheese at diamond, what are you going to do in masters if someone actually has a refined cheese build order/micro.
And forcing your high masters friends to play with you when you can't deal with diamond cheese is probably worse practice than ladder; your friends can do almost anything they want with 0 refinement and still win, which means you either just get crushed by superior mechanics, or you only learn how to play against people that are screwing around/not using strategies you actually need to practice against.
- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted.
But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat.
I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players.
Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive.
AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED.
More than once, too.
Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch.
._.
If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill.
6 pool hits before a 12 rax even finishes. What are you talking about?
the 12 rax doesn't need to finish for your wall-off to be done-- it only need to start. It starts at about 1:30, and depending on the map, 6 pool usually hits after 3:10 when you start your 16 depot.
6 pool gets 6 lings out at 2:05, then it's a matter of getting to your base, which with regular zerglings takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 45 depending on the map. you can cancel a marine or geyser (or even your orbital command) and start a depot in time pretty easily if you're on a small map or spawned close.
I have never been 6 pooled and had lings get into my base.
Wait, is it really not possible to wall? I was always under the impression you could always get a wall up in time >.>
Have you been getting your second depot instead of your orbital or something? Standard terran is 10 depot 12 rax 15 orbital 16 depot (2nd). Unless you meant gasless where you can build your 2nd depot at 14, but you said "depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot" which makes me very confused.
Against a 6 pool, cancel the orbital and use the extra money to finish your wall-off if he's going to arrive before your normal 2nd depot timing. It's economically effecient to do so since you won't lose any scvs that way.
On November 05 2011 05:14 Validity wrote: Ladder isn't optimal practice, but definitely not for the reasons you listed. If you can't deal with mass cheese at diamond, what are you going to do in masters if someone actually has a refined cheese build order/micro.
And forcing your high masters friends to play with you when you can't deal with diamond cheese is probably worse practice than ladder; your friends can do almost anything they want with 0 refinement and still win, which means you either just get crushed by superior mechanics, or you only learn how to play against people that are screwing around/not using strategies you actually need to practice against.
- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted.
But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat.
I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players.
Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive.
AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED.
More than once, too.
Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch.
._.
If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill.
6 pool hits before a 12 rax even finishes. What are you talking about?
the 12 rax doesn't need to finish for your wall-off to be done-- it only need to start. It starts at about 1:30, and depending on the map, 6 pool usually hits after 3:10 when you start your 16 depot.
6 pool gets 6 lings out at 2:05, then it's a matter of getting to your base, which with regular zerglings takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 45 depending on the map. you can cancel a marine or geyser (or even your orbital command) and start a depot in time pretty easily if you're on a small map or spawned close.
I have never been 6 pooled and had lings get into my base.
Wait, is it really not possible to wall? I was always under the impression you could always get a wall up in time >.>
Have you been getting your second depot instead of your orbital or something? Standard terran is 10 depot 12 rax 15 orbital 16 depot (2nd). Unless you meant gasless where you can build your 2nd depot at 14, but you said "depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot" which makes me very confused.
Against a 6 pool, cancel the orbital and use the extra money to finish your wall-off if he's going to arrive before your normal 2nd depot timing. It's economically effecient to do so since you won't lose any scvs that way.
But that relies on scouting the zerg first/lucking out and running into his zerglings. 6 zerglings are pretty easy to kill with 15 scvs.
I don't wall in TvZ because I think the minerals are more useful than defence against a cheese that should never work. I've defended drone pull 6 pool with gas first fine on xnc in na gm
On November 05 2011 05:14 Validity wrote: Ladder isn't optimal practice, but definitely not for the reasons you listed. If you can't deal with mass cheese at diamond, what are you going to do in masters if someone actually has a refined cheese build order/micro.
And forcing your high masters friends to play with you when you can't deal with diamond cheese is probably worse practice than ladder; your friends can do almost anything they want with 0 refinement and still win, which means you either just get crushed by superior mechanics, or you only learn how to play against people that are screwing around/not using strategies you actually need to practice against.
- Sadly, no one will every look at a diamond league player in the same light as a Master's league player, which means you have no choice but to ladder and try to get promoted.
But how do you think people got into masters? They learned to defend cheese, that's how. And if you think there's no cheese at Masters, heck, even GM level, then, oh boy, you're in for a treat.
I've been 6-pooled by other Master League players.
Context: I'm Terran. There's literally no way 6 pool can work against me because the depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot progression, the slowest one to wall, STILL starts the depot before zerglings from a 6 pool arrive.
AND YET I HAVE STILL BEEN 6 POOLED.
More than once, too.
Even on big maps like Tal'darim and Backwater Gulch.
._.
If you cannot defend cheese, take some time to practice against it (on the ladder, even!) because learning how to hold off rushes on 1-2 bases is an important skill.
6 pool hits before a 12 rax even finishes. What are you talking about?
the 12 rax doesn't need to finish for your wall-off to be done-- it only need to start. It starts at about 1:30, and depending on the map, 6 pool usually hits after 3:10 when you start your 16 depot.
6 pool gets 6 lings out at 2:05, then it's a matter of getting to your base, which with regular zerglings takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 45 depending on the map. you can cancel a marine or geyser (or even your orbital command) and start a depot in time pretty easily if you're on a small map or spawned close.
I have never been 6 pooled and had lings get into my base.
Wait, is it really not possible to wall? I was always under the impression you could always get a wall up in time >.>
Have you been getting your second depot instead of your orbital or something? Standard terran is 10 depot 12 rax 15 orbital 16 depot (2nd). Unless you meant gasless where you can build your 2nd depot at 14, but you said "depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot" which makes me very confused.
Against a 6 pool, cancel the orbital and use the extra money to finish your wall-off if he's going to arrive before your normal 2nd depot timing. It's economically effecient to do so since you won't lose any scvs that way.
But that relies on scouting the zerg first/lucking out and running into his zerglings. 6 zerglings are pretty easy to kill with 15 scvs.
I don't wall in TvZ because I think the minerals are more useful than defence against a cheese that should never work. I've defended drone pull 6 pool with gas first fine on xnc in na gm
Yeah that's also a good strat. Also if you open with any sort of 2 rax (12/14 even) you will have a wall up, also same with a 1 rax FE. Basically the only time you won't automatically auto-win against 6 pool as terran is if you're mining gas
people in high masters think that they can get away getting 3rd base at 8 minute vs non fast expo build
and when you own them, they will rage at you as they think that master is NR15 or something like that and when opportunity happens, i will allin for a sure win
On November 05 2011 03:36 VPCursed wrote: You need to learn how to hold everything off if you want to be able to compete at gm/high masters level. Ladder is very good practice.
This is true, but at the same time, as you get into higher leagues macro games are much more prevalent.
lol watch a top tier player stream. Very rarely is it a straight up FE vs FE macro game. Infact, most times it's a 1 or 2 base timing attack that wins or loses the game.
And if protoss is cannon rushing you, I bet you are hatch firsting and not going pool gas lol
Oh, and terran stopping all ins with a wall...yes we stop 6/7/9/10 pools. We cannot stop roach ling if we hellion, or roach ling bane 2 base bust if cut tanks, or a 2 base econ bane bust if we skip tanks and go to medics first..
etc etc. Just learn to play better, is the only option. Ladder is great practice.
Have you been getting your second depot instead of your orbital or something? Standard terran is 10 depot 12 rax 15 orbital 16 depot (2nd). Unless you meant gasless where you can build your 2nd depot at 14, but you said "depot-rax-gas-orbital-depot" which makes me very confused.
I do depot rax gas depot OC and get that extra scv to make it 16, 17 with marine when I OC
I've been on the border of Diamond and Master for the past season. I feel like a Mexican being separated from his family in America across the border. Everyone looks at us Diamond players as absolute shit so I know how you feel. It's either you're Masters or you're irrelevant from my experience.
I think you may be on a lower tier in Diamond from where I am, because people gradually move out of their cheesy phase. But people still do it... I've managed to beat someone who has cannoned me in without having to do that drone drill trick so it felt great, but obnoxious as hell. Wonky timing pushes are super prevalent and absolutely horrendously annoying. Several times I muttered out personal insults (I refrained from typing out) over skype as my friends bore witness to the shit you face on the ladder.
In the end I resorted to simply just blindly making units because my opponent is bound to do some kind timing attack that may outright kill me. Sadly I'm just doing it blindly, although it is probably standard to scout the push have enough to defend (that's why I'm still in Diamond, hilarious isn't it). The other day some bastard decided to do a huge Marine Marauder Hellion push with a late expo. All I had were like 7 mutas and a handful of zerglings. I quickly sniped his marines and cleaned up after he killed 40 fucking drones. Because his nat expo was late he was mining out in his main while I was bringing my fourth up.
From then on this dude just fell apart after his first push. This son of a bitch thought he was entitled to a win after making an easy to do all-in push that caught me off guard. He caught me off guard- he should be on even ground with me after killing 40 drones. No, I friggin rolled him. I humiliated him by multitasking with banelings and lings in his nat and my clump of mutas in his main. I blew up all his scvs. I made him hole up in his main to the 24 minute mark before A-Moving my stupid amount of banelings through his base.
I use my anger and hatred for players like that to go through a day on the ladder. These people are garbage in my eyes, and you should bathe in their loss. And I tell myself I'm worse than garbage when I lose to them in order to keep myself humble.
Being in Diamond is worse than being in Gold imo, it means that you're trying hard to play competitively but fail if you don't get into Masters. That's just how I see it, I hate seeing it that way too but that's how I really feel. Fucking sad.
On November 05 2011 10:21 Snuggles wrote: I've been on the border of Diamond and Master for the past season. I feel like a Mexican being separated from his family in America across the border. Everyone looks at us Diamond players as absolute shit so I know how you feel. It's either you're Masters or you're irrelevant from my experience.
I think you may be on a lower tier in Diamond from where I am, because people gradually move out of their cheesy phase. But people still do it... I've managed to beat someone who has cannoned me in without having to do that drone drill trick so it felt great, but obnoxious as hell. Wonky timing pushes are super prevalent and absolutely horrendously annoying. Several times I muttered out personal insults (I refrained from typing out) over skype as my friends bore witness to the shit you face on the ladder.
In the end I resorted to simply just blindly making units because my opponent is bound to do some kind timing attack that may outright kill me. Sadly I'm just doing it blindly, although it is probably standard to scout the push have enough to defend (that's why I'm still in Diamond, hilarious isn't it). The other day some bastard decided to do a huge Marine Marauder Hellion push with a late expo. All I had were like 7 mutas and a handful of zerglings. I quickly sniped his marines and cleaned up after he killed 40 fucking drones. Because his nat expo was late he was mining out in his main while I was bringing my fourth up.
From then on this dude just fell apart after his first push. This son of a bitch thought he was entitled to a win after making an easy to do all-in push that caught me off guard. He caught me off guard- he should be on even ground with me after killing 40 drones. No, I friggin rolled him. I humiliated him by multitasking with banelings and lings in his nat and my clump of mutas in his main. I blew up all his scvs. I made him hole up in his main to the 24 minute mark before A-Moving my stupid amount of banelings through his base.
I use my anger and hatred for players like that to go through a day on the ladder. These people are garbage in my eyes, and you should bathe in their loss. And I tell myself I'm worse than garbage when I lose to them in order to keep myself humble.
Being in Diamond is worse than being in Gold imo, it means that you're trying hard to play competitively but fail if you don't get into Masters. That's just how I see it, I hate seeing it that way too but that's how I really feel. Fucking sad.
HURRAH SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS<3333333333333333333333333333333333
Dont give them the chance to cannon cheese you? Just start out with more aggressive builds. 7pool, make 3 drones (micro them all so they are 2 on closest patches for gosuness) when 9/10 drone comes out send him to scout where the lord isnt. Pay attention to scout probe directions and timing of it. when pool is almost done (about 120 minerals or so) make 2 extractors make 2 sets of lings, should have like 35 minerals and then make another set of lings cancel both extractors and make the drones mine again. rally lings to middle of the map. and then to the ramp of the base you find. make a lord when lings are running out to mid.
Now when lord pops you need to save larva a bit until you scout if you should continue to spam lings or to make drones and a queen asap.
If they are cannon rushing or some garbage you will just win. If they are trying to cannon wall to expand you will use scout drone to delay and deny placement for lings to bust through before he can wall or before the canon goes up. If you get inside just run around avoiding conflict just delaying mining time until you have like 12 lings or something. try to take out key bldgs and solo zealots obviously. Micro the lings so they take 2 hits and run away from 3rd hit.
Most of the time they will make a canon in their minerals and take plan B of 1 base play. They will most likely 4 gate or void rush. Just sac a lord at 7 min to find out which it is. meanwhile making 15 drones and gas and 2nd hatch and continuing to macro up and play a normal game. get speed for lings, a roach warren, and an evo chamber. and be ready to start massing roaches and lings around 30 supply or so if they are 4 gating. You can even make a few spines and shit if you want. If voids just toss a few spores around and make an extra queen or two and spread creeps.
Beware for DT builds as well, so spores help there too since your lair will be later.
EPT
) you can just do the mineral trick and easily break it.
