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On October 10 2011 16:05 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 15:29 Phemtos wrote:On October 10 2011 15:11 Eppa! wrote:On October 10 2011 14:46 Phemtos wrote:On October 10 2011 14:07 travis wrote:On October 10 2011 13:07 CaptainPlatypus wrote:
First of all, the complaints were mainly about scheduling and (later) lag, not LoL itself. Secondly, no offense to competitive LoL players, but it really doesn't involve as much skill as other competitive games. It has less depth (and balance) than SC2, than DotA, than Street Fighter, than just about any ESPORT, and that's somewhat by design. So while I agree with you that the community's attitude was pretty bad, and that's regrettable and worthy of discussion, I think the "and it's totally unjustified" half of the statement you're making is, well, totally unjustified. I don't know why im arguing this but you're completely wrong. How much skill it takes to be good at something that involves direct competition with an opponent is based upon the skill of your opponents. And LoL has plenty of depth anyways, actually. This is coming from someone who has played lots of LoL, played sc2 at a fairly high level, and played BROODWAR at a very high level. LoL has little to no competitive scene compared to Dota 2. Also the depth doesn't say much about the game in it's competitive scene. There are plenty of RTS game that have more depth then SC2/BW, but that doesn't mean they would make a better competitive esport game. Basically LoL is a dumb down version of the original game that lack the real competitive backbone that Dota 2 has. Dota 2 has the Chinese players, the Ukrainian, the Russians who are the real hardcore players that are MUCH more competitive then anybody that play in the LoL scene. Just like SSF4 has the japanese and SC has the koreans hence why the game will never be considered a real esport game especially when dota 2 is out and Riot knows that. At IEM in China this year more people went to watch LoL than SC2. If viewers are not the backbone of an esports nothing is. Did you not read what I said? MOBA is huge in China. LoL was the only moba game at IEM china so obviously people went to watch that. But guess what these same people will be watching next year over LoL? Dota 2. Also they still don't have that backbone competitive scene that I am talking about. I never said anything about their viewership. I know LoL bring alot of numbers but Dota 2 bring even more. So Chines people went to IEM then chose lol rather than seeing lol being played at IEM then going to watch it? What is this so called competitive backbone? History? Does that make it impossible to coexist? Just because football has more history means that american football can't exist. Also arguably the key factor of a game is its popularity. Dota is a very hardcore game LoL is too since you have the same factors on your game play as the other team. What people need to understand is what makes this history which is: 1. Replayability 2. Access DotA was free BW was free CS 1.6 was free Fighters where available in arcades Maybe you are right. SC2 and LoL have no right to call themselves ESPORTS as they do not have the "competitive backbone" of BW and DotA.
I never said SC2 has no competitive backbone. I said LoL had none and as you can see the moba games community won't be coexisting together for a while like the fighting game community does and that is assuming it does at all. Also LoL is not a hardcore game neither is Dota. CS 1.6, Quake, Street Fighter, and BW and SC2 to an extent are hardcore game. Now onto my next point, the main reason why LoL is so popular is because the game has been free since it's release, not because the MOBA fanbase was already this huge(China aside) and all decided to play LoL. Most people that play LoL know nothing of Dota history esport wise because they are casual players. Now like I said the reason why Dota 2 will be a sucessful and established esport and LoL won't have already been stated so I won't bother with that.
One last thing, the replayability and access to a game simply does not make it a competitive esport game, yes it might make it more popular but that doesn't mean the game is spectator friendly, it doesn't mean the game is balanced enough to be played competitively. Also none of the game you stated were free at release especially not DotA since you needed to buy two games to play the latest version.
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Well this has been derailed.
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On October 10 2011 13:15 coolcrimefighter wrote:
are sc2 players really complaining about a game because its too casual and requires no skill?
the irony that this post points out is hilarious....because it's so true.
It accomplishes nothing but demonstrating their own foolishness.
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On October 10 2011 16:17 bokchoi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 16:05 Eppa! wrote:On October 10 2011 15:29 Phemtos wrote:On October 10 2011 15:11 Eppa! wrote:On October 10 2011 14:46 Phemtos wrote:On October 10 2011 14:07 travis wrote:On October 10 2011 13:07 CaptainPlatypus wrote:
First of all, the complaints were mainly about scheduling and (later) lag, not LoL itself. Secondly, no offense to competitive LoL players, but it really doesn't involve as much skill as other competitive games. It has less depth (and balance) than SC2, than DotA, than Street Fighter, than just about any ESPORT, and that's somewhat by design. So while I agree with you that the community's attitude was pretty bad, and that's regrettable and worthy of discussion, I think the "and it's totally unjustified" half of the statement you're making is, well, totally unjustified. I don't know why im arguing this but you're completely wrong. How much skill it takes to be good at something that involves direct competition with an opponent is based upon the skill of your opponents. And LoL has plenty of depth anyways, actually. This is coming from someone who has played lots of LoL, played sc2 at a fairly high level, and played BROODWAR at a very high level. LoL has little to no competitive scene compared to Dota 2. Also the depth doesn't say much about the game in it's competitive scene. There are plenty of RTS game that have more depth then SC2/BW, but that doesn't mean they would make a better competitive esport game. Basically LoL is a dumb down version of the original game that lack the real competitive backbone that Dota 2 has. Dota 2 has the Chinese players, the Ukrainian, the Russians who are the real hardcore players that are MUCH more competitive then anybody that play in the LoL scene. Just like SSF4 has the japanese and SC has the koreans hence why the game will never be considered a real esport game especially when dota 2 is out and Riot knows that. At IEM in China this year more people went to watch LoL than SC2. If viewers are not the backbone of an esports nothing is. Did you not read what I said? MOBA is huge in China. LoL was the only moba game at IEM china so obviously people went to watch that. But guess what these same people will be watching next year over LoL? Dota 2. Also they still don't have that backbone competitive scene that I am talking about. I never said anything about their viewership. I know LoL bring alot of numbers but Dota 2 bring even more. So Chines people went to IEM then chose lol rather than seeing lol being played at IEM then going to watch it? What is this so called competitive backbone? History? Does that make it impossible to coexist? Just because football has more history means that american football can't exist. Also arguably the key factor of a game is its popularity. Not how hardcore it is. What people need to understand is what makes this history which is: 1. Replayability 2. Access DotA was free BW was free CS 1.6 was free Fighters where available in arcades Maybe you are right. SC2 and LoL have no right to call themselves ESPORTS as they do not have the "competitive backbone" of BW and DotA. Wait... BW was free? Somebody stole my money then. Curse you Blizzard. In all seriousness, iCCup, WGT, PGT, etc. were all illegal and if BW wasn't so old and dead (outside of Korea) by the time they rolled around Blizzard would've done something about it. I was actually surprised that Blizzard did nothing about iCCup when they went after KeSPA.
Does iCCup make a profit? (I actually don't know, elucidate me :p)
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tbh its hard to take LoL seriously as an esport when riot literally has to pay tournament organizers to show their game. On top of that there is no spectator support for LoL, which on top of their server stability and balance issues just kills it. Did you know that mlg had LoL last time, but they had technical issues with LoL almost the entire time.
I don't see LoL becoming anything interesting. Every single game of LoL that I've watched is just one long farm fest. All the objectives on the map combined with the fact that there are very few mobility options means late game you just roam the map as a team to get buffs and occasionally split up to split push. The ward game is really simplified because of super cheap oracles. There's no deviation from the 2-2-1 jungle laning set up. Free blink means you are much safer against ganks, contributing to the farm focused gameplay.
Its not a matter of how accessibility or skill. Its a matter of deep design flaws as well as technical flaws that make the game impossible to watch.
More on topic: Never take anything you read in stream chats seriously. The worst scum of the earth can be found there. A few trolls mouthing off indicates nothing about the opinions of the majority of community members, who probably don't give a fuck.
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Not to be mean here, but shouldn't be a blog about something personal?
This feels lika a low-effort rant about the "SC2 and LoL" issue, hence this really weird... discussion...
We are not going to solve this problem as there is actually no basis at all for a kind of "objective" discussion about the issue(that is, more or less, both communities being pretty stubborn.)
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the IPL this weekend was a little like tuning in for a great football match and then 3/4s of the way though, right before the climax of the match they cut to a 3 hour volleyball game instead... its true they are similar games, but they are for different people with different tastes and I'd expect football fans to react in a similar way.
anyone knows, who's idea was it to show the LoL?
In regard to the disappointing feedback, We are the consumers of the 'product' and we were providing IPL priceless feedback by voicing how we feel, to block the chat was like saying 'we dont care how you feel you should should be greatful and enjoy what we give you' ....it was a mistake, hope they fix it and do wonder how it effects future viewers.
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On October 10 2011 16:23 Phemtos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 16:05 Eppa! wrote:On October 10 2011 15:29 Phemtos wrote:On October 10 2011 15:11 Eppa! wrote:On October 10 2011 14:46 Phemtos wrote:On October 10 2011 14:07 travis wrote:On October 10 2011 13:07 CaptainPlatypus wrote:
First of all, the complaints were mainly about scheduling and (later) lag, not LoL itself. Secondly, no offense to competitive LoL players, but it really doesn't involve as much skill as other competitive games. It has less depth (and balance) than SC2, than DotA, than Street Fighter, than just about any ESPORT, and that's somewhat by design. So while I agree with you that the community's attitude was pretty bad, and that's regrettable and worthy of discussion, I think the "and it's totally unjustified" half of the statement you're making is, well, totally unjustified. I don't know why im arguing this but you're completely wrong. How much skill it takes to be good at something that involves direct competition with an opponent is based upon the skill of your opponents. And LoL has plenty of depth anyways, actually. This is coming from someone who has played lots of LoL, played sc2 at a fairly high level, and played BROODWAR at a very high level. LoL has little to no competitive scene compared to Dota 2. Also the depth doesn't say much about the game in it's competitive scene. There are plenty of RTS game that have more depth then SC2/BW, but that doesn't mean they would make a better competitive esport game. Basically LoL is a dumb down version of the original game that lack the real competitive backbone that Dota 2 has. Dota 2 has the Chinese players, the Ukrainian, the Russians who are the real hardcore players that are MUCH more competitive then anybody that play in the LoL scene. Just like SSF4 has the japanese and SC has the koreans hence why the game will never be considered a real esport game especially when dota 2 is out and Riot knows that. At IEM in China this year more people went to watch LoL than SC2. If viewers are not the backbone of an esports nothing is. Did you not read what I said? MOBA is huge in China. LoL was the only moba game at IEM china so obviously people went to watch that. But guess what these same people will be watching next year over LoL? Dota 2. Also they still don't have that backbone competitive scene that I am talking about. I never said anything about their viewership. I know LoL bring alot of numbers but Dota 2 bring even more. So Chines people went to IEM then chose lol rather than seeing lol being played at IEM then going to watch it? What is this so called competitive backbone? History? Does that make it impossible to coexist? Just because football has more history means that american football can't exist. Also arguably the key factor of a game is its popularity. Dota is a very hardcore game LoL is too since you have the same factors on your game play as the other team. What people need to understand is what makes this history which is: 1. Replayability 2. Access DotA was free BW was free CS 1.6 was free Fighters where available in arcades Maybe you are right. SC2 and LoL have no right to call themselves ESPORTS as they do not have the "competitive backbone" of BW and DotA. I never said SC2 has no competitive backbone. I said LoL had none and as you can see the moba games community won't be coexisting together for a while like the fighting game community does and that is assuming it does at all. Also LoL is not a hardcore game neither is Dota. CS 1.6, Quake, Street Fighter, and BW and SC2 to an extent are hardcore game. Now onto my next point, the main reason why LoL is so popular is because the game has been free since it's release, not because the MOBA fanbase was already this huge(China aside) and all decided to play LoL. Most people that play LoL know nothing of Dota history esport wise because they are casual players. Now like I said the reason why Dota 2 will be a sucessful and established esport and LoL won't have already been stated so I won't bother with that. One last thing, the replayability and access to a game simply does not make it a competitive esport game, yes it might make it more popular but that doesn't mean the game is spectator friendly, it doesn't mean the game is balanced enough to be played competitively. Also none of the game you stated were free at release especially not DotA since you needed to buy two games to play the latest version.
You need to explain somethings:
1. What makes a hardcore game?
2. Whenever I see people complain about balance in LoL it is completely unjustified. SF4 had Sagat, SC2 has Terran, BW has Terran according to the highest level LoL player (hotshotgg) said that the most imba champs in LoL is Zilean and Galio by a small margin( if you play LoL this statement is mind boggling). Depth is silly to use in the context of a mirror game like LoL (or give a solid example rather than gameplay mechanics you dislike).
3. What is a competitive backbone? Was BW born with it?
When it comes to watchability CS is terrible, DotA is hell.
The Free statement is misleading I meant to say in Sweden if you go to a PC bang you will always have cs 1.6, WC3, BW, LoL, SC2. I Doubt there is much difference in other countries.
On October 10 2011 16:53 KeksX wrote:
Not to be mean here, but shouldn't be a blog about something personal?
This feels lika a low-effort rant about the "SC2 and LoL" issue, hence this really weird... discussion...
We are not going to solve this problem as there is actually no basis at all for a kind of "objective" discussion about the issue(that is, more or less, both communities being pretty stubborn.)
Bingo.
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On October 10 2011 13:15 coolcrimefighter wrote:
are sc2 players really complaining about a game because its too casual and requires no skill?
Are BW players still bitter and mad about SC2?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51542 Posts
On October 11 2011 00:25 Sandro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 13:15 coolcrimefighter wrote:
are sc2 players really complaining about a game because its too casual and requires no skill? Are BW players still bitter and mad about SC2?
nope.
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On October 11 2011 00:25 Sandro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 13:15 coolcrimefighter wrote:
are sc2 players really complaining about a game because its too casual and requires no skill? Are BW players still bitter and mad about SC2?
last i recall, all the scrubs went to sc2 and no one noteworthy......
/trolling
but seriously, bw players/fans were never bitter of sc2 lol :[
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United States2822 Posts
They DID stream LoL on the second stream, by the way. LoL was simultaneously broadcast on the Caesar's and Bally's stream, and the reason was because IPL wanted to introduce LoL to the SC2 scene.
Regardless of what the SC2 community thinks, IPL as an organization seeks to grow e-Sports. Not just SC2.
Even if 5 million SC2 fans hated what happened, if IPL managed to get one SC2 fan to look at LoL and say "Hmm, that seems interesting. I might watch that or play that," then it was a success to them.
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On October 10 2011 16:23 Phemtos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 16:05 Eppa! wrote:On October 10 2011 15:29 Phemtos wrote:On October 10 2011 15:11 Eppa! wrote:On October 10 2011 14:46 Phemtos wrote:On October 10 2011 14:07 travis wrote:On October 10 2011 13:07 CaptainPlatypus wrote:
First of all, the complaints were mainly about scheduling and (later) lag, not LoL itself. Secondly, no offense to competitive LoL players, but it really doesn't involve as much skill as other competitive games. It has less depth (and balance) than SC2, than DotA, than Street Fighter, than just about any ESPORT, and that's somewhat by design. So while I agree with you that the community's attitude was pretty bad, and that's regrettable and worthy of discussion, I think the "and it's totally unjustified" half of the statement you're making is, well, totally unjustified. I don't know why im arguing this but you're completely wrong. How much skill it takes to be good at something that involves direct competition with an opponent is based upon the skill of your opponents. And LoL has plenty of depth anyways, actually. This is coming from someone who has played lots of LoL, played sc2 at a fairly high level, and played BROODWAR at a very high level. LoL has little to no competitive scene compared to Dota 2. Also the depth doesn't say much about the game in it's competitive scene. There are plenty of RTS game that have more depth then SC2/BW, but that doesn't mean they would make a better competitive esport game. Basically LoL is a dumb down version of the original game that lack the real competitive backbone that Dota 2 has. Dota 2 has the Chinese players, the Ukrainian, the Russians who are the real hardcore players that are MUCH more competitive then anybody that play in the LoL scene. Just like SSF4 has the japanese and SC has the koreans hence why the game will never be considered a real esport game especially when dota 2 is out and Riot knows that. At IEM in China this year more people went to watch LoL than SC2. If viewers are not the backbone of an esports nothing is. Did you not read what I said? MOBA is huge in China. LoL was the only moba game at IEM china so obviously people went to watch that. But guess what these same people will be watching next year over LoL? Dota 2. Also they still don't have that backbone competitive scene that I am talking about. I never said anything about their viewership. I know LoL bring alot of numbers but Dota 2 bring even more. So Chines people went to IEM then chose lol rather than seeing lol being played at IEM then going to watch it? I never said SC2 has no competitive backbone. I said LoL had none and as you can see the moba games community won't be coexisting together for a while like the fighting game community does and that is assuming it does at all.
it = what community are you referring to?
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+ Show Spoiler +I just wanted to say that I am very dissapointed in the LOL community. The reception they gave the SC2 on the IPL stream on justin.tv is just terrible, only being worse at the HON Incident. IPL has advertised that SC2 would be broadcast in their stream at specific times but still the chat and even the IPL thread here was full of people saying things like;
"SC2 is destroying esports"
"SC2 takes no skill"
"its just for casuals"
"wtf where is LOL"
etc etc
Basically the collective message was we are spolit brats and give us what we want.
The truth of the matter is this, SC2 does actually take a lot of skill to play, no it doesnt take the same type of skill as LOL as it is a different game and in its own genre. but it takes teamwork which sc2 completely lacks, just as much map awareness and essentially good macro in the sense of last hitting, defending and pusing towers, harrassing etc etc that the best of the best do.
Casuals are what makes up both communities and are what drives the growth of esports. If casuals didnt come pla both games and expand the userbase of both games there would be no pro scene as it simpy would not be profitable in any way shape or form.
If you actually go read the event schedule you would have seen that SC2 was to be broadcast at these times, you do no have a leg to stand on when you demand that they close the stream to put SC2 on.
Both games contain complexity for newcomers, LoL has something like 70 heroes and SC2 has something like 30 different units (can't remember the specific number of either). This introduces a large learning curve on anyone who isnt familiar with either games as they have no idea what heroes or units do. So when you say that SC2 isnt good to watch becuase there is to much going on, remember LOL has just as much going on.
I really want to expand on this further but I have my final year uni project to continue to work on. I think I have got the basic points out of the way.
Am I doing it right?
Really complaining about the SC2 community is like complaining about any other community, a group of people do not make up the whole community. The vocal minority are not the silent majority. Taking stream chat seriously is your first mistake, and taking a LR thread as a serious gauge is also questionable. Just do what I do and just watch the stream, stay out of chat and usually avoid the LR thread.
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There was enough overlap in interest that casting both at the same time would have been a mistake on IPL's part.
Some people are just impatient and selfish. Some people are just mean idiots; they're the same people that shit all over halo and every other game because it's not starcraft therefore it's not a real sport. Instead of embracing esports as a whole they'd rather hold back the community. They use the argument, "It's like if you were watching football and all of a sudden they switched to soccer". no. It'd be like not showing two football "Bowls" at the same time. Like it or not, hopefully eventually people will understand and accept that SC2 is part of esports, not esports all by itself. It's not big enough to be it's own thing yet, and it never will be while the community kills itself and eachother.
It was nice of IPL to cast them separately for the sake of not having overlap. And you get the selfish people that say, "well LOL finals should have had to wait"; they picked one. Would it really be any more fair for THEM to have to wait till ____ in the morning? But that's just some people.
Try not to let it lead you to hating the community as a whole. There are genuine idiots and douche bags but most of the people are actually nice and helpful and positive, from what i've seen and hope for anyway.
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EPT
