So, I figure that since I don’t really suck anymore, I’ll post some actual builds, etc., that, as far as I can tell, I’ve worked out and perfected to the degree that any build can be perfected. Hopefully these will help some other people improve as they have helped me. This time we’re going to take a look at a TvT build I’ve come up with. I know, I know, “A build that a platinum player created.” Doesn’t sound that great. But I’ve worked through this over and over, and I really feel like it’s an effective one when used properly. Also, just for future reference, I won’t post any builds on here that I don’t run through many times to make sure they actually are viable and efficient. Just give it a try.
I got this idea after watching Korean TvT openings, especially players like Polt that like to use a single uncloaked banshee to mess with their opponents while they do other things, like expand. This is a fast non-cloak single banshee harass into semi-fast expand (~33-37 supply) that also allows you to hold off most pressure. It won’t really work against anything super aggressive like a 3 rax, though, so if you scout that, you’ll need to change your plans accordingly. I have a video below (with commentary) and the build order at the bottom of the page. Due to a few “ifs” and “buts” in the build, it’s probably best to watch the video. If anyone tries this out, I’d like to know how it works for you.
Here's the build:
10 – supply depot 12 – barracks (no tech lab until after 2nd command center is started) 13 – refinery 15 (or 16, if you make marine first) – orbital command 16 – supply depot 18 – factory 20 (should be right at 4 minute mark) – barracks (2nd) 21 or 22 – supply depot 23 – starport 23 – tech lab on factory 28 – bunker (optional, if early pressure is a possibility) 29 – switch starport to factory’s tech lab and produce banshee 31 – supply depot
From here, supply timings vary depending on whether a bunker was built, whether you lost any units to early pressure, etc. You should continue producing marines and SCVs and then build a command center as soon as you can afford it. Typically, this is no later than 37 supply and will frequently be earlier. Then, as soon as you can afford it after the command center begins building, you’ll need a third barracks, a refinery, and then a fourth barracks. Make the command center into an orbital command as soon as it finishes, and float it to your natural expansion as soon as the orbital command is complete.
From there, it’s up to you as to how to transition. Tanks will often be necessary, and, given the way things have been evolving in TvT, hellions may be necessary as well. It’s also usually best get stim as soon as you can after you have your expansion.
Notes:
-I already said this, and it’s pretty obvious but just to reiterate: this build is only good for TvT. Zerg and Protoss should shut it down with ease.
-Until expansion is established, use all energy on mules. Preliminary scouting and the banshee should provide all the intelligence you need.
-Continually produce marines and SCVs throughout the build. Unless necessary, don’t build anything from the factory until after you start your command center.
-If you scout a 3 rax, quickly build a bunker and another barracks, skip the starport, and go either hellion or, if you think you have enough time, siege tank. Preemptively pull three or four SCVs to the bunker and set them on auto-repair.
-If you scout early double gas, expect cloaked banshee. In this case, make sure to get an engineering bay (so you can build a missile turret for detection) and save at least one scan. You’ll probably want to get a viking instead of your own banshee. If your opponent is expanding, though, you can probably get a banshee after the viking and still cause some trouble in his base.
-If you scout a fast expansion, you can probably do some good damage with more banshees if you micro them well.
-If you want to make that first banshee more effective, on some maps it's probably possible to hide an SCV near your opponent's base to repair the banshee real quick in-between harasses.
looks good, I feel like it could work against other races for sure. Just have to play more bunkers against zerg to be safe. You can easily transition from banshee into tanks marine and zerg may overproduce on defensive (Eg. extra queens, spores, hesitate to attack you till banshee worry is gone).
I'm curious around what minute mark does the banshee appear?
On August 02 2011 23:01 needcomputer wrote: looks good, I feel like it could work against other races for sure. Just have to play more bunkers against zerg to be safe. You can easily transition from banshee into tanks marine and zerg may overproduce on defensive (Eg. extra queens, spores, hesitate to attack you till banshee worry is gone).
I'm curious around what minute mark does the banshee appear?
Looks like the banshee came out right at 6:44. I could be wrong, but I can't see anyway to get it out any earlier than that, aside from a masters player shaving a few seconds off by having SCVs in-place to build buildings at all the exact right times.
That is a good point that zerg may overdefend if they see a banshee, but I'd still be wary of using this against zerg, since you're basically banking on them making a big flub. If they play it right, there's not much 1 banshee can do against a queen other than fly around and be mildly annoying.
Ive seen pros fly a banshee to the zerg's THIRD and therefore have the zerg cancel and be sorta contained since queens take a looong time to get to the third to defend. Therefore, you will have delayed the zerg third and be on equal footing for a 2 base tank marine push.
I play zerg so I cannot contribute to this thread about TvP or TvT
On August 03 2011 00:33 needcomputer wrote: Ive seen pros fly a banshee to the zerg's THIRD and therefore have the zerg cancel and be sorta contained since queens take a looong time to get to the third to defend. Therefore, you will have delayed the zerg third and be on equal footing for a 2 base tank marine push.
I play zerg so I cannot contribute to this thread about TvP or TvT
I could see that working, but I don't know if this build in particular would be cut out for that in most cases. It would have to be an extremely early 3rd. As you said, it could be very effective to get a siege tank (or some hellions) first, followed by a later banshee to deny the third, but that would be a different build.
On August 03 2011 00:33 needcomputer wrote: Ive seen pros fly a banshee to the zerg's THIRD and therefore have the zerg cancel and be sorta contained since queens take a looong time to get to the third to defend. Therefore, you will have delayed the zerg third and be on equal footing for a 2 base tank marine push.
I play zerg so I cannot contribute to this thread about TvP or TvT
I could see that working, but I don't know if this build in particular would be cut out for that in most cases. It would have to be an extremely early 3rd. As you said, it could be very effective to get a siege tank (or some hellions) first, followed by a later banshee to deny the third, but that would be a different build.
The banshee can be used for map control against zerg, which essentially allows you to expand anyway. You can use it to poke in and steal drone kills when he doesnt pay attention, and then fly out and patrol the xelnaga watch towers, which essentially removes map control from him. You can spot his tech if you need to, as well as patrol where his 3rd base is going to be. Another thing is you can patrol the edge of his creep and snipe tumors before they finish. All of these things disrupt a zerg and can allow you to expand. IMO a single banshee is really really strong.
On August 03 2011 00:33 needcomputer wrote: Ive seen pros fly a banshee to the zerg's THIRD and therefore have the zerg cancel and be sorta contained since queens take a looong time to get to the third to defend. Therefore, you will have delayed the zerg third and be on equal footing for a 2 base tank marine push.
I play zerg so I cannot contribute to this thread about TvP or TvT
I could see that working, but I don't know if this build in particular would be cut out for that in most cases. It would have to be an extremely early 3rd. As you said, it could be very effective to get a siege tank (or some hellions) first, followed by a later banshee to deny the third, but that would be a different build.
The banshee can be used for map control against zerg, which essentially allows you to expand anyway. You can use it to poke in and steal drone kills when he doesnt pay attention, and then fly out and patrol the xelnaga watch towers, which essentially removes map control from him. You can spot his tech if you need to, as well as patrol where his 3rd base is going to be. Another thing is you can patrol the edge of his creep and snipe tumors before they finish. All of these things disrupt a zerg and can allow you to expand. IMO a single banshee is really really strong.
Hmm, good point. I can see that as being good map control, as opposed to just stalking the guy's mineral line like I would do in TvT. However, I personally would prefer reactored hellions if map control is your goal.
On August 03 2011 00:33 needcomputer wrote: Ive seen pros fly a banshee to the zerg's THIRD and therefore have the zerg cancel and be sorta contained since queens take a looong time to get to the third to defend. Therefore, you will have delayed the zerg third and be on equal footing for a 2 base tank marine push.
I play zerg so I cannot contribute to this thread about TvP or TvT
I could see that working, but I don't know if this build in particular would be cut out for that in most cases. It would have to be an extremely early 3rd. As you said, it could be very effective to get a siege tank (or some hellions) first, followed by a later banshee to deny the third, but that would be a different build.
The banshee can be used for map control against zerg, which essentially allows you to expand anyway. You can use it to poke in and steal drone kills when he doesnt pay attention, and then fly out and patrol the xelnaga watch towers, which essentially removes map control from him. You can spot his tech if you need to, as well as patrol where his 3rd base is going to be. Another thing is you can patrol the edge of his creep and snipe tumors before they finish. All of these things disrupt a zerg and can allow you to expand. IMO a single banshee is really really strong.
Hmm, good point. I can see that as being good map control, as opposed to just stalking the guy's mineral line like I would do in TvT. However, I personally would prefer reactored hellions if map control is your goal.
Yeah I feel the same way. Lately ive been using oGsTOPS TvZ build where its essentially reactor hellions into cloak banshee (while expanding). I wait for 4 reactor hellions (instead of going with first 2) and then use the hellions initially to kill drones, and lings and then target his queens if they are being used against you. Taking both queens to half life or less with hellions will allow the banshee to easily clean them up especially with cloak. I find this build really messes with a zerg if he doesnt scout it right (he might make roaches or mass lings which wont help at all, and possibly delay his lair tech which delays overseers).
Back on topic. I like your build order, and I will play a bunch of games and see how it fits my particular style!
On August 03 2011 00:33 needcomputer wrote: Ive seen pros fly a banshee to the zerg's THIRD and therefore have the zerg cancel and be sorta contained since queens take a looong time to get to the third to defend. Therefore, you will have delayed the zerg third and be on equal footing for a 2 base tank marine push.
I play zerg so I cannot contribute to this thread about TvP or TvT
I could see that working, but I don't know if this build in particular would be cut out for that in most cases. It would have to be an extremely early 3rd. As you said, it could be very effective to get a siege tank (or some hellions) first, followed by a later banshee to deny the third, but that would be a different build.
The banshee can be used for map control against zerg, which essentially allows you to expand anyway. You can use it to poke in and steal drone kills when he doesnt pay attention, and then fly out and patrol the xelnaga watch towers, which essentially removes map control from him. You can spot his tech if you need to, as well as patrol where his 3rd base is going to be. Another thing is you can patrol the edge of his creep and snipe tumors before they finish. All of these things disrupt a zerg and can allow you to expand. IMO a single banshee is really really strong.
Hmm, good point. I can see that as being good map control, as opposed to just stalking the guy's mineral line like I would do in TvT. However, I personally would prefer reactored hellions if map control is your goal.
Yeah I feel the same way. Lately ive been using oGsTOPS TvZ build where its essentially reactor hellions into cloak banshee (while expanding). I wait for 4 reactor hellions (instead of going with first 2) and then use the hellions initially to kill drones, and lings and then target his queens if they are being used against you. Taking both queens to half life or less with hellions will allow the banshee to easily clean them up especially with cloak. I find this build really messes with a zerg if he doesnt scout it right (he might make roaches or mass lings which wont help at all, and possibly delay his lair tech which delays overseers).
Back on topic. I like your build order, and I will play a bunch of games and see how it fits my particular style!
Cool, I'd like to hear how it works for you. I obviously feel it's a good build, but that's based purely on my own experience.
Back off topic for one quick second, I also like waiting for 4 hellions instead of 2, and I also definitely agree that cloaked banshees can be very strong midgame against Zerg. Usually if you don't rush the cloak, then the zerg player simply doesn't expect any cloaked units to come his way and thus won't have any detection.
But yeah, let me know how the build works for you.
Hey everyone, I just wanted to post a quick update on this build after using it for a while longer. Since I posted this build, I have lost only one out of about the 10 TvT matches I have played (I play random, so I only get TvT once in, theoretically, every 9 games). Granted, I am only platinum, but as far as I can tell, the build is working greatly.
I've found that the most difficult build to hold off while using this is the 3-siege tank push. However, it can still be done. The problem is, usually you'll have such a marine-heavy army, that a good siege tank placement can do massive damage once your enemy has vision up your ramp. Here's the thing, though. If they do this build, you will both be hitting each other's base right around the same time. So, if you've hidden your banshee well enough, you'll have free reign on their SCV line while they're working to break into your base. So, if you survive the tank push, you basically win, as you'll have your expansion going, and they'll just be trying to rebuild their original SCVs.
The trick to holding off the push, I think, is first to immediately start a second banshee [Edit: "immediately" when you see the tank push, not immediately after the first banshee"]. In the meantime, move your marines back, wait to push into your opponent's army whenever they un-siege for a second, and try to kill as many marines as possible before moving back out of tank range before the tanks siege back up. When you're done wreaking havoc on their SCVs (or earlier, if things get particularly dire at your base), bring your first banshee back home. Even if you eventually lose all your marines, you've hopefully been able to whittle down their marine numbers (as they typically won't have a ton of marines with a 3 tank push). Use your banshees to help eliminate whatever marines are left (banshees are vulnerable to high numbers of marines but do a great job against marines in small numbers). Once the marines are taken out, the tanks are yours for the picking. You now have an enormous economic lead.
Also, I have gotten into this build and scouted a 3 rax, which I originally mentioned would probably stomp the build. What I did was I cut the starport from my plans and went straight to siege tank instead. Held off the push with no problem.
On August 02 2011 23:01 needcomputer wrote: looks good, I feel like it could work against other races for sure. Just have to play more bunkers against zerg to be safe. You can easily transition from banshee into tanks marine and zerg may overproduce on defensive (Eg. extra queens, spores, hesitate to attack you till banshee worry is gone).
I'm curious around what minute mark does the banshee appear?
This is clearly a TVT build, why are you even mentioning zergs randomly
EPT
