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[Theorycraft]Solving the Air PvZ puzzle.

Blogs > NB
Post a Reply
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
July 26 2011 22:37 GMT
#1
First of all, i would like all of you to go watch NSHS.Sage vs fOu (now FXO) in GSTL. his 1st game PvZ on taldarim is the core basic of what i want to talk about.

Secondly, this build do not apply to any game below master league because there are metagame applied which does not work well for diamond and below. I will not be responsible for any loses and rage when you fail to execute this strategy.

Ok! Lets talk about the basic of PvZ atm:

With the new map pool of season 3, a lots of people have realized that the future of PvZ is forge FE. You can do it on Xelnaga, taldarim, shakuras, temple( i have not tried it ever but there are people claim this work) and even meta. New map pool adding 2 more maps which is great for this opening which are Abyssal and Antiga. The idea is going a very early nexus before gateway with cannon defense to get ahead in economic. In contradict, Zerg could always open 15 hatch to get even with Protoss 16 nexus but with the lack of scouting information, they are constantly at fear of cannon rush therefore pool first is always a must in ZvP. So where does that left us? a Nexus first vs a pool first opening. Well, the zerg could either try to all-in with roach lings (or bane speedling) which both could be scout easily with a hidden probe poking in Z base around 5:10 mark. Or they could try to double expand (which nestea, losira both prefer to do). The map design, as we know, make that the 3rd base of Zerg always far away from their nature which then result a disconnect in creep spread between bases. Using this, lots of Protoss recently decided to get at least 1 VR to pressure Zerg's fast 3rd to challenge the lack of anti air Zerg has. Recent observation shows that Zerg players upon knowing this has started to make spore crawler preemptively just to keep their 3rd base alive. I will be discussing in regards of this particular situation.


The common options:

1/ Robo switch: right after you queue your 1st phoenix on startgate, Use the first 100 gas to rush to robo-colossus in order to counter the Roach hydra army midgame and hope to quickly achieve the deathball to crush Zerg in early late game. This option is traditional and technical. The main problem is that lots of time you wont be able to deal enough damage to force hydra production and Zerg just simply hold with queen and spore. This will simply free their option in gas spending: muta, banelings, infestors... you never know. It is true that you can scout with the phoenix you made but zerg doesn't need to make units even if they paid for the tech building. for example you might see a roach warren but the entire game he went bane speed with drop. This make the 3 colossus push on 2 bases of P extremely weak if Zerg really commit to a timing attack therefore its really hard to take a 3rd as Protoss in this situation.


2/ Fast twilight + 2nd forge: lots of people look at the twilight and assume its for the blink stalker but infact, its all about the +2 attack. With +2, blink stalker demolish tier 1 zerg if engage in a right angle. This also give you an option to get fast HT or DT while getting your 3rd/4th base. Fearsome timing attack but its rarely seen due to the high infestor count. Late game this army requires you dropping HT over the infestors and feedback them b4 any engagement which is really hard to execute. A heavy gateway composition vZ is a gamble unless you have a godly blink stalker micro vs Infestor fungal therefore i wont be discussing this much.


The unexploited optionsaka. where the fun begin)

Facts that will blown your mind if you have never thought of it:
+ Show Spoiler +
1/ Zerg has no real answer to Forcefield until the very late game where ultra and air tech come in to play. Yes burrow roaches might be a counter but burrow movement of Zerg is a commitment and you wont see roaches if you open VR in the first place

2/A FF hold a ramp for 15 seconds, a sentries hold 4 FF when they max energy, a wrap prism hold 4 sentries. Assuming there is no energy regeneration involve: 15*4*4 = 4 minutes. If you drop 4 zealots into Zerg main, you might get 2 drones or 3 but if you drop 4 sentries, you might kill his entire base.

3/In PvZ the unit that decided the battle normally has high gas cost. Sentries, Colossus, HT are really gas expensive units while zealot stalkers are more mineral centric.


Option 1: Sage+: simply copy sage by denying map control with phoenixes and harass with zealots while tech-ing to tier 3 (storm/colo) but instead of normal harassment use the initial sentries and drop them into the enemy main with a distraction attack to the enemy 3rd. The extra wrap gates allowed you to focus more on making enough zealot while making sure you have extra cycle to produce tier 3 (HT). In order to counter this type of build, the Zerg would have tried to pull drones and kill the 4 sentries but you can simply lift them up in the prism if they get focused. Also the early phoenix need to deny the overlord vision around Zerg base well to make sure they wont see the prism coming until the very last minute. Another way to counter is Zerg with an army lead hoping for a base trade. You have to see this coming by seeing this army not trying to poke up the ramp no more and cannon up to tank for your tier 3 DPS. Best map to execute this is shakuras where you can approach the main ramp with minimum risk of overlord/creep vision.
This build could be compared to the Sair-DT back in BW day as it is really APM intensive.
Personally i have been testing this with only low master players i found in some random obs games so the result is not worth to share. I really wanted to see a perfect execution of this theory one day. If you are a zerg player, you probably hate me to tell everyone try this =)). Btw, the highest rank player i beat using this is 'The professor' who created a thread about ZvP death ball :D


Option 2: Committed air tech: Most of you should check out this blog of mine:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=226076

To see how wonderful carrier is in PvZ. Dont believe me? download this replay then:
http://sc2r.me/309h This is my placement game for season 3 so mid to lategame is a bit shaky but i already know i won so...

The basic carrier theory: You open 1 VR 1phoenix with 4 gas early, put down a Fleet bacon and 2 more stargates -> pump carriers. Everything happens while you constantly producing zealots with +1 armor (if vs lings heavy +1 attack) and chrono cyber +1 air (after wrap tech). Ideally your 1st 3 carriers should start at 11~12 min mark and about 14:30 you will have at least 5 carriers ready to roll out with a whole bunch of zealot you produce out of 4 wrapgates. The danger here is that you force Zerg to make units to fence off the zealot harassment early on after they already lost 1 or 2 ovie and having to make at least 1 spore at each bases + extra queens. They wont have enough to defends vs 5 carriers at their main base. after the 6 carriers, strongly recommend you to stop carriers production to switch to phoenixes so you can lift off hydra while the carriers attacking. With all the zealots tanking damage, carriers should be able to finish any zerg build that is anti ground focus which are most of them due to the lack of early scouting information your phoenix voidray denied.

I need this section just to talk about the zealot harassment out of 1 gate: This is the key for you to scout zerg tech early on: scout their 3rd timing and lair timing is crucial!! Forcing them to make roaches vs your air army is even a greater news. This also the key for you to spot any sort of 2 bases drop all in (which happen to counter carriers rush ) and defense accordingly. Never afraid to lose 1 or 2 first zealots for all the information you are gaining. (sending 1 zealot or 2 zealot to scout is depend on what kill your hidden probe at 5 minute mark)

This build could also be a tier 3 support for option 1 if you decided to get an early mothership instead of carriers.

/////////////////Will be editing and format later (or never) since this is just a blog . The TL format is so confusing since im trying to make it look like something impossible. Have fun trying out unorthodox PvZ style after raging about imba infestors xD. Let me know if you have anything to add to the build to improve it via TL PM.
GL HF GG

**
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45332 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-27 00:17:12
July 27 2011 00:13 GMT
#2
On July 27 2011 07:37 NB wrote:
Facts that will blown your mind if you have never thought of it:
1/ Zerg has no real answer to Forcefield until the very late game where ultra and air tech come in to play. Yes burrow roaches might be a counter but burrow movement of Zerg is a commitment and you wont see roaches if you open VR in the first place

2/A FF hold a ramp for 15 seconds, a sentries hold 4 FF when they max energy, a wrap prism hold 4 sentries. Assuming there is no energy regeneration involve: 15*4*4 = 4 minutes. If you drop 4 zealots into Zerg main, you might get 2 drones or 3 but if you drop 4 sentries, you might kill his entire base.


1. No, because if you open void ray (or any air at all), then you won't be massing sentries, since both are gas heavy. And if you open air and then transition into mass sentry (with, I assume, units who can actually deal damage...), he'll have plenty of time to tech to lair and either have burrowed roaches with hydras or drop tech, both of which nullify forcefields.

2. Last time I checked, Zerg can make units inside of their bases... so how are your four sentries going to stop the 12 zerglings popping out of the hatchery that they're sitting next to? Not to mention the fact that, again, any air, drop tech, or burrowed roaches or infestors would stop this attack. Or a counterattack lol. Keep in mind you're assuming that Protoss already has robo tech up, which means that Zerg has at least a little tech already.

Other than that... cool post The air conversation is interesting. The sentry stuff... not so much.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
July 27 2011 00:48 GMT
#3
On July 27 2011 09:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 27 2011 07:37 NB wrote:
Facts that will blown your mind if you have never thought of it:
1/ Zerg has no real answer to Forcefield until the very late game where ultra and air tech come in to play. Yes burrow roaches might be a counter but burrow movement of Zerg is a commitment and you wont see roaches if you open VR in the first place

2/A FF hold a ramp for 15 seconds, a sentries hold 4 FF when they max energy, a wrap prism hold 4 sentries. Assuming there is no energy regeneration involve: 15*4*4 = 4 minutes. If you drop 4 zealots into Zerg main, you might get 2 drones or 3 but if you drop 4 sentries, you might kill his entire base.


1. No, because if you open void ray (or any air at all), then you won't be massing sentries, since both are gas heavy. And if you open air and then transition into mass sentry (with, I assume, units who can actually deal damage...), he'll have plenty of time to tech to lair and either have burrowed roaches with hydras or drop tech, both of which nullify forcefields.

2. Last time I checked, Zerg can make units inside of their bases... so how are your four sentries going to stop the 12 zerglings popping out of the hatchery that they're sitting next to? Not to mention the fact that, again, any air, drop tech, or burrowed roaches or infestors would stop this attack. Or a counterattack lol. Keep in mind you're assuming that Protoss already has robo tech up, which means that Zerg has at least a little tech already.

Other than that... cool post The air conversation is interesting. The sentry stuff... not so much.


1- 400 gas is not much of an investment consider u having all 4 gas running early. There are corners to cut but yeah.

2- zerg can make unit in base but you can also wrap in. Thats why you have to have a good sense of timing using the phoenix scout and the distraction attack at Z 3rd. You main wraping in zealots so even if they wipe out your attack, its just minerals. The build was an inspiration/modified of Plexa's shock and awe which could be find here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=230735.
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
iamke55
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States2806 Posts
July 27 2011 00:57 GMT
#4
But you're just a Nobody.

OD
During practice session, I discovered very good build against zerg. -Bisu[Shield]
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14104 Posts
July 27 2011 01:04 GMT
#5
I belive you didn't watch hongun vs nestea 2 nights (it was more yesterday morning but whatever) the problem with stargate opening is that with queens and spores zerg can Power drone so hard while defending with massed spines and queens while rushing for a faster tech or army. 60 drones at the 10 minute mark sounds downright scary.

I also don't think your thinking about the increasing use's of investors which counter protoss air so much with fungle plus neural parasitism. carriers are just a huge target for that while voids just get fungled so fast.

and don't just assume that the metagame below masters doesn't apply. You'll see that the lower leauges are hendiuly filled with flavor of the month strats if poorly executed.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
July 27 2011 01:59 GMT
#6
On July 27 2011 10:04 sermokala wrote:
I belive you didn't watch hongun vs nestea 2 nights (it was more yesterday morning but whatever) the problem with stargate opening is that with queens and spores zerg can Power drone so hard while defending with massed spines and queens while rushing for a faster tech or army. 60 drones at the 10 minute mark sounds downright scary.

I also don't think your thinking about the increasing use's of investors which counter protoss air so much with fungle plus neural parasitism. carriers are just a huge target for that while voids just get fungled so fast.

and don't just assume that the metagame below masters doesn't apply. You'll see that the lower leauges are hendiuly filled with flavor of the month strats if poorly executed.

that is why carriers came into play. People still doesnt know how the meta game shift using carrier yet. Zerg cant prepare to counter 6 carriers in their main killing their tech tree.
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
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