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About People (How to-) [Part 1] - Page 3

Blogs > Torte de Lini
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Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
July 25 2011 01:40 GMT
#41
On July 25 2011 10:26 TheBeau wrote:
I think you also have to consider who the criticism is coming from. It's obviously harder on the internet to see what credentials any commenter or player has when they criticise you, and I think that plays a big part too. It's somewhat similar to your point about not attacking the person but I think the difference is that it affects your reaction. No one appreciates being criticised by those who they believe are or performed significantly worse than them.

You can argue your criticism is perfectly valid, which it may be and is usually true, but the fact you are not 'on their level' is what, I think, will cause people to explode. Unfortunately, there's not much you can do here, even the best criticism can be ignored. My point here is that you can accept criticism from a friend, but not listen to it because you think yourself better than them. Whilst you may not accept nor listen to a stranger who you believe yourself better than. Personally, I believe that people (on the internet) are much more likely to listen to criticism from people who are significantly more skilled than them or at least at the same level, regardless of quality or positivity.

I also couldn't help but notice the HoN/DotA references whilst reading. My problem with criticism in those type of games where there are things which you cannot explain and go far beyond things like "harassment" or just "positioning", vague terms which don't really contribute to improving (I imagine you would agree here, not trying to call you out on an example). However it is supposedly unfair to criticise someone by saying, "You just don't get it" even though it may be completely true (There are times when it is not of course!).

For example, in Football (soccer) I can't really say "you're kicking it wrong" nor can I explain how I'm able to be better (I'm not it's just an example ), it's just a feeling I get that has come naturally and with experience. This feeling is probably what has given rise to the quite amusing term "gamesense", though people would have you believe it's some sort of in-game telepathy.

Personally, I think it's really difficult to write a 'guide' on criticism because of how different people are and how they won't react as you might expect, so props to you. Following the guidelines you've set out will undoubtedly result in less rage but there always those who react differently. I enjoyed reading nonetheless and I hope you continue.


Will be in another part on "how to receive/ask for advice".

I wrote about the idea of giving criticisms and how the person would receive it. If you give someone tips but your background is poor, no matter what you say; they will deflect and stubbornly disagree without compromise or intent on actually learning. To which you should just give up, not because he is a lost cause but because your position is neither appreciated nor ultimately changing anything in the end. The fact that you cared enough to help, should be sufficient to tie you over or moving towards another game someone else. In due time, that person will realize he might need some help and you can be there if he ever refers to you.

I think when you get criticism that you can respectfully acknowledge, you should do just that. Give them the decency of acknowledgement and then simply claim you respectfully disagree (with as much justified details as you want) or end there. Criticisms were/are meant to help, of course it depends on the person :B

I used HoN as an example a lot because it is very hard to decipher communication there. People will criticize you with vague lines such as: "You didn't harass enough or at this engagement, you fucked up". But I mention in the entry that without detail or a specific solution, the ultimate point of the criticism is lost. I've had a lot of people tell me these similar lines and when I press for more details or information, they'd give me a cop-out such as: "Don't suck" or something that is intentionally ambiguous and passive-aggressive, you can then safely discredit the person and emotionally distraught after a loss. That doesn't mean the loss of a match wasn't in part or fully your fault. But to understand why it is your fault, you might have to seek advice elsewhere (someone unassociated with the event, will be in my next part). Often times, HoN players will simply blame one person or scenario that was the "turning point" of the game and ultimately leading towards one failure because it is easier to identify one crucial mistake from another, than collectively admit that a series of problems lead to your demise. Blaming or scapegoating isn't something uncommon as I'm sure you know.

In the end it's a guide. A bar in case you have trouble going up the steps of voicing yourself clearly and with a respectable tone/intent. Those who like it can use it and those who don't can safely move on without a problem.

Thanks a lot for your viewpoint, it was enlightening! I hope I was clear in my response too!
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
forSeohyun
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
504 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-25 02:18:21
July 25 2011 01:47 GMT
#42
On July 25 2011 06:20 FinnGamer wrote:
I really enjoyed this blog.
Kant has a really interesting view about selfish or selfless deed, he says that all the selfish deeds are immoral ( which is a bit too harsh anyway [With Kant there are so few things moral, like not killing yourself when you are in really big pain)].

Sadly, people don't really understand how proper criticism works and I think the Internet is one of the reasons why. 99% of the people that make such comments would never say it to the people IRL, but everybody knows that.

Looking forward to Part 2



Aren't we talking about his maxims?
Quoting from wikipedia: " Act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it would become a universal law. Act so that you always treat others as an end, and never as a means to an end only."
or more in depth here

If you followed the link you may have seen: "So, for instance, Kant held that the maxim of committing suicide to avoid future unhappiness did not pass the third step, the contradiction in conception test. Hence, one is forbidden to act on the maxim of committing suicide to avoid unhappiness."

But is it possible that there exist something other formulation which has an Kantian maxim which allow suicide? Maybe there isn't. Here was an pretty interesting analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of this argument

But where those the selfish deed come in to this? Noting that: "Kant confirms this by comparing motivation by duty with other sorts of motives, in particular, with motives of self-interest, self-preservation, sympathy and happiness. He argues that a dutiful action from any of these motives, however praiseworthy it may be, does not express a good will. Assuming an action has moral worth only if it expresses a good will, such actions have no genuine ‘moral worth’" (from the link)

So they are not necessarily immoral but can be without moral, if you get my point.
Seohyun fan
Probulous
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3894 Posts
July 25 2011 02:10 GMT
#43
On July 25 2011 10:30 Torte de Lini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2011 10:23 Probulous wrote:
Right...

I like the idea, I'm just not sure you convey your reason for this blog particularly well. I honestly feel like you need to reread what you wrote and clarify exactly what you are setting out to do, upfront. You acknowlege this when your wrote "I feel I am blurring my point" and then wrote another paragraph which essentially says, "people appreciate positive quality feedback." This is a somewhat minor issue as anyone who reads your blogs kows that you like to meander. You've said this yourself.

More importantly, I would posit that people who take the time to read this blog are more than likely to take the time to think about their respones. Put simply, the choir hears you loud and clear. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, we all need reminding. This links with my first point, the reasoning behind this blog is a little obscure.

It always good to read your stuff. Personally I enjoy your musings about life in general more, but each to their own.

Will read part 2



I knew I should have opened my blog with an italicized off-topic reasoning for why I am doing this...

The reasoning is barely important I feel. If you mean my overall goal: "Overall, I feel this predicament is similar to commentators (feel free to correct me, I'm not quite confident with this comparison). While commentators themselves may be terrible, many of the things they say are generally accepted or respected enough to be criticized or counter-argued (I'm hoping you and I are the same way right now). There are exceptions to this and it isn't rejecting the idea that there aren't better commentators out there (Hearing commentating from iNcontrol and Idra given that they are familiar with the scene and experienced it personally), but rather considering that not all information should be flushed or viewed less as a guide purely because there is a stigma or viewpoint that the writer is "socially awkward" (in quotations because it isn't an affirmation)."

It was both a tool for myself to do something productive when I was brooding or angry at something or someone (usually leading me to be self-destructive) and a way of feeling useful and distracting myself while also hoping I helped or enlightened some people [and if I didn't, I sincerely am glad you already know this].

My ultimate goal is written in the blog: "But I feel I am capable of reminding those who read this entry of the basic aspects of people we should take into account for: their need to improve and their need to feel needed. In other words, people seek to improve themselves or improve a part of their life and they also seek to be appreciated, needed or have a place in a group whether in the workplace, with family or with friends."


Fair nuff. Those were just my thoughts on what you wrote. You write a lot so I am sure you are used to opinion being thrown back at you. Like I said, I enjoyed reading it, I am just not sure that it convers your point to those that don't read carefully. Which is sort of your point...

Pointception
"Dude has some really interesting midgame switches that I wouldn't have expected. "I violated your house" into "HIHO THE DAIRY OH!" really threw me. You don't usually expect children's poetry harass as a follow up " - AmericanUmlaut
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
July 25 2011 03:34 GMT
#44
Yeah, I write and talk a lot, so I am prone to a lot of hatred or criticisms
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Rekrul
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Korea (South)17174 Posts
July 25 2011 05:47 GMT
#45
LOL no wonder you wrote this blog, you play HON. It all makes sense now.
why so 진지해?
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-25 05:49:58
July 25 2011 05:48 GMT
#46
On July 25 2011 14:47 Rekrul wrote:
LOL no wonder you wrote this blog, you play HON. It all makes sense now.


Among other games, yes. HoN is an easy to place to find examples of bad forms of criticisms, much like any other cooperative games.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25555 Posts
July 29 2011 17:38 GMT
#47
This was really informative. I think that people are afraid to be kind on the internet, which is really sad ;( Thanks for writing this! It was a good read. The youtube videos definitely helped to break up the wall-of-textiness.
I leave you now with a quote from Alexander Pope:
Alexander Pope Wrote:
For fools rush in where angels fear to 5/5.

As such, I will rate this blog post 5 out of 5 stars.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
July 29 2011 18:59 GMT
#48
Thank you.

I think the fear is giving in or letting the person feel how they want to feel. It's an issue and I can't figure it out.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
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