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On July 15 2011 05:16 Itsmedudeman wrote:
also, just doing drops obviously isn't enough to win it
drops are more for putting their main army out of position or a really good harass if you know their main army is out of position to clean it up otherwise it does literally nothing and you'll probably be on the losing end to some warp ins
I think that this is the best advice in the thread. Drops are incredibly easy to deal with as protoss unless you are forcing his army to not be able to deal with the drop. I think one of the key fundamentals of playing a proper TvP is that your army can always run away unless you're stupid and get caught by FFs.
Try dropping 2 medivacs worth of units while pushing the front and just staying far enough away from the sentries that he can't forcefield you. The difference in damage you can do between a 1 medivac drop and a 2 medivac drop is pretty big, especially considering most protoss only leave enough units/warp ins behind to clean up a 1 medivac drop.
I would suggest adding blueflames and no vikings until they hit like 4 colossi. Not having to use vikings means you can have a nice medivac/upgrade count, as well as take a quick third (only need 3 gases), which allows you to support a double starport later. This removes the normal low unit count drawback the double starport usually causes and allows you to pump out vikings if the protoss does hit that crit mass of colossi. Vikings actually do pretty bad dps/cost compared to marauders. Its also pretty easy to trade units for colossi if you just spread into a concave, stim in, then box a group of marauders and target fire.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 15 2011 00:23 mTw|NarutO wrote:
................ I'm so angry right now and I just don't know a better way to get off with my anger. I seriously believe that Terran vs Protoss is Terran favored if you play it right and know how to abuse Terran to the right amount, but I just fucking can't do it.
When I try to drop, he has an observer that spotted it, blink stalkers in position or a warp in ready. When I take big fights and EMP perfectly and all his colossus die to my vikings I win the fight and lose because I cannot beat the reinforcements.
I fail to understand the timings and mechanics the match up totally. I don't know how I can expand, don't die to timings while having enough units to pressure myself. When I send out a drop I seem to have not enough units to do a harass in multiple places or create pressure. A Terran army is also so fragile to balance. If you have too much vikings, you miss firepower. If you have too low medivac count you miss healing power. If you have not enough marines, chargelot kill you. If you have too many, colossus and storm ownes you.
I seriously have no clue, since no matter how I open or how I play, I seem to run into counters blindly or just perform really bad. Sometimes I throw away due to overagression... but I just cant SIT and do nothing and wait for Protoss to move in the open... but all my harass attemps are shut down with so much precision.. that I end up being 5 base vs 5 base.. which is not a good situation.
I can win the maxed out battles, but I can never win against reinforcements, since Protoss reinforcements are nearly instant while mine are not......... FML.
<3
How Ive always felt about this stupid matchup! I know its not bad for terran, but there's something Im not getting.
I think one of the key fundamentals of playing a proper TvP is that your army can always run away unless you're stupid and get caught by FFs.
Not really - the important units die (medivacs, vikigns).
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On July 15 2011 06:09 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 00:23 mTw|NarutO wrote:
................ I'm so angry right now and I just don't know a better way to get off with my anger. I seriously believe that Terran vs Protoss is Terran favored if you play it right and know how to abuse Terran to the right amount, but I just fucking can't do it.
When I try to drop, he has an observer that spotted it, blink stalkers in position or a warp in ready. When I take big fights and EMP perfectly and all his colossus die to my vikings I win the fight and lose because I cannot beat the reinforcements.
I fail to understand the timings and mechanics the match up totally. I don't know how I can expand, don't die to timings while having enough units to pressure myself. When I send out a drop I seem to have not enough units to do a harass in multiple places or create pressure. A Terran army is also so fragile to balance. If you have too much vikings, you miss firepower. If you have too low medivac count you miss healing power. If you have not enough marines, chargelot kill you. If you have too many, colossus and storm ownes you.
I seriously have no clue, since no matter how I open or how I play, I seem to run into counters blindly or just perform really bad. Sometimes I throw away due to overagression... but I just cant SIT and do nothing and wait for Protoss to move in the open... but all my harass attemps are shut down with so much precision.. that I end up being 5 base vs 5 base.. which is not a good situation.
I can win the maxed out battles, but I can never win against reinforcements, since Protoss reinforcements are nearly instant while mine are not......... FML.
<3 How Ive always felt about this stupid matchup! I know its not bad for terran, but there's something Im not getting. Show nested quote +I think one of the key fundamentals of playing a proper TvP is that your army can always run away unless you're stupid and get caught by FFs. Not really - the important units die (medivacs, vikigns).
Really Jinro, Really?!
Why not mech, heck you devolped the style in your match vs MC ib scrap. There hasn't been any major nefs to mech. What makes such a difference in a few months.
Please enlighten me on how mech doesn't destroy protoss if Terran plays turtle style.
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cause everything is countered by HT?every fucking unit has energy.perhaps Mech + Ghosts.
Emp your whole army before the fight.......................................gj Blizz.
and i pray for you brethren that you have emp left for the Templars,rofl
Even Thorzain stated that really everything a Terran has is countered by HT.
You stand a good chance if EMPs hits goodly,otherwise a Protoss maxed army is the strongest in the Game by FAR,and will obliterate you.
And i think everybody feals the weakness in terran lategame reinforcement.,therefore they trade armys with you,cause they know,they will come out far ahead.
If your battle goes wrong you´re dead.
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On July 15 2011 06:15 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 06:09 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On July 15 2011 00:23 mTw|NarutO wrote:
................ I'm so angry right now and I just don't know a better way to get off with my anger. I seriously believe that Terran vs Protoss is Terran favored if you play it right and know how to abuse Terran to the right amount, but I just fucking can't do it.
When I try to drop, he has an observer that spotted it, blink stalkers in position or a warp in ready. When I take big fights and EMP perfectly and all his colossus die to my vikings I win the fight and lose because I cannot beat the reinforcements.
I fail to understand the timings and mechanics the match up totally. I don't know how I can expand, don't die to timings while having enough units to pressure myself. When I send out a drop I seem to have not enough units to do a harass in multiple places or create pressure. A Terran army is also so fragile to balance. If you have too much vikings, you miss firepower. If you have too low medivac count you miss healing power. If you have not enough marines, chargelot kill you. If you have too many, colossus and storm ownes you.
I seriously have no clue, since no matter how I open or how I play, I seem to run into counters blindly or just perform really bad. Sometimes I throw away due to overagression... but I just cant SIT and do nothing and wait for Protoss to move in the open... but all my harass attemps are shut down with so much precision.. that I end up being 5 base vs 5 base.. which is not a good situation.
I can win the maxed out battles, but I can never win against reinforcements, since Protoss reinforcements are nearly instant while mine are not......... FML.
<3 How Ive always felt about this stupid matchup! I know its not bad for terran, but there's something Im not getting. I think one of the key fundamentals of playing a proper TvP is that your army can always run away unless you're stupid and get caught by FFs. Not really - the important units die (medivacs, vikigns). Really Jinro, Really?! Why not mech, heck you devolped the style in your match vs MC ib scrap. There hasn't been any major nefs to mech. What makes such a difference in a few months. Please enlighten me on how mech doesn't destroy protoss if Terran plays turtle style.
The Thor nerf was pretty big. Personally I'd like to see the nerf reversed and, if needed, re-nerfed in a way that HTs aren't so good against them. Maybe they could reduce the max energy and the energy required for strike cannons, that way they could feedback Thor's to stop them using strike cannon but not do so much damage to them.
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On July 15 2011 02:14 BobbysBack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 00:24 WarChimp wrote:
Thus why I switched to Zerg. I can ZvP pretty well, I cannot TvP at all. Whaaa. No you can't switch to zerg. Then I can't ZvT you...T_T;;;
Sorry mate, that's just the way it worked out haha.
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On July 15 2011 06:09 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +I think one of the key fundamentals of playing a proper TvP is that your army can always run away unless you're stupid and get caught by FFs. Not really - the important units die (medivacs, vikigns).
And that's why overseers suck. Big investment, doesn't matter if you upgrade speed or not. If you decide to run away..
Oh, ha ha that was great. I just imagined hydras and brood lords running away off creep.
That's why overseers suck.
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yeah i hate protoss too
pvp is such a bitch mu
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On July 15 2011 11:15 FragKrag wrote:
yeah i hate protoss too
pvp is such a bitch mu
Yeah I hate protoss as well, Zerg always kill me with their late game composition.
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Fyi, Naruto is a very gosu forum veteran who's opinions should be treated with respect. Very very good bw and sc2 player, I love tvp but I'm diamond so I have nothing to say. You are at a level way above me and most of this thread (besides jinro <3)
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This is me as well, just replace TvP with PvZ.
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I have the same problems as NarutO... It's so frustrating. I lose every single game against Protoss even if I'm strong favoured. It makes no fun 
I like Terran and I'm playing it for about 12 years now (sc1) but I really think about switching cuz of TvP .
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The fragile balance in the T's army and warp-in makes the match up really hard and precise. It punishes tiny mistakes. It's one of my worst match ups as well.
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I absolutely agree. Warpgate mechanic is imbalanced in late game, because you can instantly remax compared to other races.
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Ah god TvP
I've lost to players that seemingly do nothing all day but land one very nice storm which completely changes the tide. It seems like if you don't do decent damage with drops, it gets very difficult to win. And high level Protoss usually have countermeasures against drops.
Also, a properly controlled 3 warpgate voidray build kicks my ass all the time on Metal. Lovely how you can range the workers from the low ground.
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I feel the same way - I'm mostly a P player but I switch to R to spice it up. Whenever I WATCH T's play TvP it always seems easymode - make marauders, get stim, land 3 good EMPs and then kite/stutter-step your way to victory. But then when I try to do it myself, I always get caught out of position, miss critical tech switches, fail to dodge out of storms, lose my medivacs, miss EMPs, have too many or too few vikings. It's not as easy as I thought
It's a delicate balance. I honestly believe if both T and P play properly T is at least slightly favored, all other things equal, since Marauders have a huge damage bonus against a huge portion of the P's ground army, and EMP is guaranteed to remove half of the overall health on most P units, (but more importantly, energy on sentries, so the FFs you need to beat a mass marauder comp just aren't there) but it doesn't take a whole lot to tip the balance, and just lose everything for no cost to the Protoss.
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On July 15 2011 23:30 Vega62a wrote:I feel the same way - I'm mostly a P player but I switch to R to spice it up. Whenever I WATCH T's play TvP it always seems easymode - make marauders, get stim, land 3 good EMPs and then kite/stutter-step your way to victory. But then when I try to do it myself, I always get caught out of position, miss critical tech switches, fail to dodge out of storms, lose my medivacs, miss EMPs, have too many or too few vikings. It's not as easy as I thought It's a delicate balance. I honestly believe if both T and P play properly T is at least slightly favored, all other things equal, since Marauders have a huge damage bonus against a huge portion of the P's ground army, and EMP is guaranteed to remove half of the overall health on most P units, (but more importantly, energy on sentries, so the FFs you need to beat a mass marauder comp just aren't there) but it doesn't take a whole lot to tip the balance, and just lose everything for no cost to the Protoss.
But when you're playing cutthroat with ghosts (since ghosts suck pretty much when there's nothing left to EMP), it's rare that you can hit every sentry twice with emps. What's left are either some pocket of sentries you missed or sentries you failed to hit twice, which means just enough forcefields are there to wreck your forces. Meanwhile, in the HT camp, if they have 50 energy left, prepare for mass feedbacks on everything with energy (basically every "power" unit of Terran).
The thing that pisses me off is that it doesn't even feel like a razor thin margin. It feels like an uphill battle the entire game. You do guaranteed damage with a drop as the first encounter, but that doesn't mean you're ahead. You get off really good blanket EMPs, but that doesn't mean you'll win the battle or get a good trade. There are no good indicators for Terran in TvP. All the old indicators: "I traded armies, but I'm ahead because he relies on tech!" "He's going colossi, which means he won't branch into twilight tech for another base!" "His tech to AoE is slow, my bio beats his gateway!" Those are all invalid now. Now, my only indication that I'm winning lies within my army standing while his is not.
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On July 16 2011 00:52 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 23:30 Vega62a wrote:I feel the same way - I'm mostly a P player but I switch to R to spice it up. Whenever I WATCH T's play TvP it always seems easymode - make marauders, get stim, land 3 good EMPs and then kite/stutter-step your way to victory. But then when I try to do it myself, I always get caught out of position, miss critical tech switches, fail to dodge out of storms, lose my medivacs, miss EMPs, have too many or too few vikings. It's not as easy as I thought It's a delicate balance. I honestly believe if both T and P play properly T is at least slightly favored, all other things equal, since Marauders have a huge damage bonus against a huge portion of the P's ground army, and EMP is guaranteed to remove half of the overall health on most P units, (but more importantly, energy on sentries, so the FFs you need to beat a mass marauder comp just aren't there) but it doesn't take a whole lot to tip the balance, and just lose everything for no cost to the Protoss. But when you're playing cutthroat with ghosts (since ghosts suck pretty much when there's nothing left to EMP), it's rare that you can hit every sentry twice with emps. What's left are either some pocket of sentries you missed or sentries you failed to hit twice, which means just enough forcefields are there to wreck your forces. Meanwhile, in the HT camp, if they have 50 energy left, prepare for mass feedbacks on everything with energy (basically every "power" unit of Terran). The thing that pisses me off is that it doesn't even feel like a razor thin margin. It feels like an uphill battle the entire game. You do guaranteed damage with a drop as the first encounter, but that doesn't mean you're ahead. You get off really good blanket EMPs, but that doesn't mean you'll win the battle or get a good trade. There are no good indicators for Terran in TvP. All the old indicators: "I traded armies, but I'm ahead because he relies on tech!" "He's going colossi, which means he won't branch into twilight tech for another base!" "His tech to AoE is slow, my bio beats his gateway!" Those are all invalid now. Now, my only indication that I'm winning lies within my army standing while his is not.
I disagree with a lot of what you said there (Marauders are the "power" unit of PvT, tbh; ghosts are amazing when everything's already been EMP'd as they tear zealots to bits and can snipe high templar) but your last statement is very true - it's frustrating because it's really hard to gauge what the outcome of any engagement is going to be in PvT, and the only way you know you're GOING to win a match (or even that you're ahead in a match) is when you're in his base killing him. It feels at some point like you have to close your eyes and fling your army at his and see who wins.
But from the Protoss side of that, it's still true - I could be +1 upgrades up and have superior numbers in a gateway composition (especially early-ish game, around the 12 minute mark, before any real tech or aoe comes out) but if a ball of marauders has one too many medivacs healing it, they're going to stim and I'm going to lose my whole army, and if they have one too few medivacs, I'm going to roflstomp it. When an engagement is one sided, it's ABSURDLY one-sided, from either perspective. A marauder ball will either get butchered or wind up trading 20 supply for 80 supply.
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Thanks for encouraging words. Thanks JinrO! Hope to see you again in the future. In real life as well as in tournaments! :-)!
On July 15 2011 13:06 n.DieJokes wrote:
Fyi, Naruto is a very gosu forum veteran who's opinions should be treated with respect. Very very good bw and sc2 player, I love tvp but I'm diamond so I have nothing to say. You are at a level way above me and most of this thread (besides jinro <3)
Thank you very much for the compliments. I'm not that good in Starcraft 2.. but I'm trying to improve when I have time to play. Happy birthday.
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