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................ I'm so angry right now and I just don't know a better way to get off with my anger. I seriously believe that Terran vs Protoss is Terran favored if you play it right and know how to abuse Terran to the right amount, but I just fucking can't do it.
When I try to drop, he has an observer that spotted it, blink stalkers in position or a warp in ready. When I take big fights and EMP perfectly and all his colossus die to my vikings I win the fight and lose because I cannot beat the reinforcements.
I fail to understand the timings and mechanics of the match up totally. I don't know how I can expand, don't die to timings while having enough units to pressure myself. When I send out a drop I seem to have not enough units to do a harass in multiple places or create pressure. A Terran army is also so fragile to balance. If you have too much vikings, you miss firepower. If you have too low medivac count you miss healing power. If you have not enough marines, chargelot kill you. If you have too many, colossus and storm ownes you.
I seriously have no clue, since no matter how I open or how I play, I seem to run into counters blindly or just perform really bad. Sometimes I throw away due to overagression... but I just cant SIT and do nothing and wait for Protoss to move in the open... but all my harass attemps are shut down with so much precision.. that I end up being 5 base vs 5 base.. which is not a good situation.
I can win the maxed out battles, but I can never win against reinforcements, since Protoss reinforcements are nearly instant while mine are not......... FML.
  
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Thus why I switched to Zerg. I can ZvP pretty well, I cannot TvP at all.
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I cant even win the maxed out battles, emps are so hard 
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Maybe watching some replays of some typical PvT games would help? Take notice of specific things in each viewing of the replay. Watch the replay once for timings, once for Protoss drop weaknesses, ect.
That's what I do when I need help with a matchup.
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Play Protoss for like 2-3 weeks, You will make a post saying SCREW TERRAN, my timings always get crushed he can pull all his scvs and still not be out of the game after holding my attack, If I scout late I don't get to see into his base tell I get obs. EMP kills everything way to fast Plus getting double prong attacked 40 times in a game is very taxing I am afraid to expo. It's always greener on the other side man.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Please don't make all-caps titles. You should know better.
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I understand how frustrating this game is so I won't say much, but coming from a Protoss player.
Its not that easy. Terran are tough. ♥
gl hf
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On July 15 2011 00:34 Chill wrote:
Please don't make all-caps titles. You should know better.
Sorry... didn't even notice Chill. Won't happen again; Just so angry-_-;;
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I could of made this same thread about Terran!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lol
We all have our bad days!!!! Terran was mine yesterday and Zerg the day before and Protoss the day before that!!! lol
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I'll drink to this,
My ZvP is horrid
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To this day I have no idea how to confront the Raven+Banshee(s)+Marines+Tanks timing attack beyond 4-Gating the guy before he has a chance to build any of it behind his Bunker (complete gamble on my part, since I can't scout without Hallu or an Observer).
Luckily for me, nobody bothers to do it anymore.
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Hear hear.
The most frustrating part of it for me is that Protoss colossus builds are so dumb easy, but so strong. A-move, forcefields, then micro colossus. Terran has to spread three different control groups, EMP, PDD, and then kite both MM and vikings. GAH.
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How the fuck did you get 10k posts.
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I made a similair blog venting and got banned within a minute. Your getting away with this?
In regards to the post, I 100% agree. I feel that the MU is actully decently balanced, the problem though is that the T has to literally play 5x better than the protoss to win once you get into late game. Its just so hard at a master league level to pull off stutter step micro the enitre game while dropping expoing macroing and doing multi prong attacks. Where as toss just needs to defend til ciritcal mass of agteway/archon or collsi builds and from there on they just need to land some decent ff and they are set. It is very consistent and easier to pull off. Thats probably why you are losing. You have to lift 250 lbs they have to lift 100....
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I'm probably too low on the ladder to have an objective view but I've found agression can have such an effect on the progress of a game. I play Protoss and I have similar problems to you, I think because I don't ever push out after my first scouts. if you get a colossus-building Protoss before he's got 2 or 3 he is screwed because you can go kill him as Day[9] says.
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On July 15 2011 01:00 Celial wrote:
How the fuck did you get 10k posts.
How do you only have 205? That's like 40 posts a year!.
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When i read that title on my iphone i read scre potatoes lol
I too have loads of trouble with terran, i can only manage tvt anf protoss has made me mad since bw days. i think the matchup always ends with 1 failed attack where the p ball owns all your air, because rebuilding it is a pain
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TvP does feel really finessy, that's for sure.
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Actually, I'm in the opposite corner... I always say screw protoss because I dislike them the most as I feel that they are the most cheesy (also residual hate from BW).
TvP is my best matchup and I managed to get a nice ladder position because of this matchup (my TvT and TvZ are pretty weak). However, recently, the metagame seems to have shifted and I've experienced a surge in zergs and a fall in the number of protoss.
The fall in the protoss meant i had less of my best matchup and I had a very painful time changing my TvZ and TvT builds to remain competitive...
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I've been relying on harrass like hellion drops / proxy cloak banshee / proxy rax to win tvp lately xD works for me .. also been using 1-1-1 going into tank viking hellion works well
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On July 15 2011 00:24 WarChimp wrote:
Thus why I switched to Zerg. I can ZvP pretty well, I cannot TvP at all.
Whaaa. No you can't switch to zerg. Then I can't ZvT you...T_T;;;
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This game is elusive. Once you think you know how to play it, it throws you a loop....
Honestly I don't see SC2 going very far past a year or two because of the strength of noobs who know how to execute build orders
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I was going to come in and blast you, but noticed you said you think T is favored, so least you aren't being biased (hopefully)..
when I have major matchup problems, really gotta dissect the matchup to its most basic functions. Watch the last 5-10 TvP losses you had and see what happened, why you lost, and what you can do to improve upon that. Should be obvious, but might of missed something.
Then try to find some very solid TvP pro replays, like PuMa vs MC for instance and dissect the hell out of them, understand what PuMa does to get an advantage and take advantage of MC. When I get in a slump I just watch my heros and it at least gives me one new thing to try in a game.
I go thru periods where I find PvT is just impossible, seems like marauders rip thru everything I have, even if its like 6 colossus and 30 zeal/stalker, pure marauder still wins.. but then theres some times when I just own every terran badly for afew weeks. Its an odd matchup that way.
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On July 15 2011 00:23 mTw|NarutO wrote:
................ I'm so angry right now and I just don't know a better way to get off with my anger. I seriously believe that Terran vs Protoss is Terran favored if you play it right and know how to abuse Terran to the right amount, but I just fucking can't do it.
When I try to drop, he has an observer that spotted it, blink stalkers in position or a warp in ready. When I take big fights and EMP perfectly and all his colossus die to my vikings I win the fight and lose because I cannot beat the reinforcements.
I fail to understand the timings and mechanics the match up totally. I don't know how I can expand, don't die to timings while having enough units to pressure myself. When I send out a drop I seem to have not enough units to do a harass in multiple places or create pressure. A Terran army is also so fragile to balance. If you have too much vikings, you miss firepower. If you have too low medivac count you miss healing power. If you have not enough marines, chargelot kill you. If you have too many, colossus and storm ownes you.
I seriously have no clue, since no matter how I open or how I play, I seem to run into counters blindly or just perform really bad. Sometimes I throw away due to overagression... but I just cant SIT and do nothing and wait for Protoss to move in the open... but all my harass attemps are shut down with so much precision.. that I end up being 5 base vs 5 base.. which is not a good situation.
I can win the maxed out battles, but I can never win against reinforcements, since Protoss reinforcements are nearly instant while mine are not......... FML.
I don't know what is so hard about making marauders. You can win 80% of TvP's with good macro + some basic multi-task drops. You have to hit stim and run when the storm hits too.. but that's kind of obvious. Good luck.
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On July 15 2011 03:23 th2pun1sh3r wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 00:23 mTw|NarutO wrote:
................ I'm so angry right now and I just don't know a better way to get off with my anger. I seriously believe that Terran vs Protoss is Terran favored if you play it right and know how to abuse Terran to the right amount, but I just fucking can't do it.
When I try to drop, he has an observer that spotted it, blink stalkers in position or a warp in ready. When I take big fights and EMP perfectly and all his colossus die to my vikings I win the fight and lose because I cannot beat the reinforcements.
I fail to understand the timings and mechanics the match up totally. I don't know how I can expand, don't die to timings while having enough units to pressure myself. When I send out a drop I seem to have not enough units to do a harass in multiple places or create pressure. A Terran army is also so fragile to balance. If you have too much vikings, you miss firepower. If you have too low medivac count you miss healing power. If you have not enough marines, chargelot kill you. If you have too many, colossus and storm ownes you.
I seriously have no clue, since no matter how I open or how I play, I seem to run into counters blindly or just perform really bad. Sometimes I throw away due to overagression... but I just cant SIT and do nothing and wait for Protoss to move in the open... but all my harass attemps are shut down with so much precision.. that I end up being 5 base vs 5 base.. which is not a good situation.
I can win the maxed out battles, but I can never win against reinforcements, since Protoss reinforcements are nearly instant while mine are not......... FML.
I don't know what is so hard about making marauders. You can win 80% of TvP's with good macro + some basic multi-task drops. You have to hit stim and run when the storm hits too.. but that's kind of obvious. Good luck.
That used to work really well for me but then protosses started to realize that there is this thing called multiple control groups for your army.
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I feel the same way about Protoss, it's just so easy to win. I play random and my favorite race is Zerg; however, I win the most with Toss even though I don't understand how to play them. I simply make a ball of units and attack. 
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One thing I find frustrating in TvP is that you can't really punish a Protoss who has a bad army placement. Like if you are doing multiply drops and he just a-move his whole 1 control group-army to one expansion, your other "free" drop wont make any damage because he can just warp-in units to save his ass.
And the fact that you can die when he expands but pressure you and just reinforce with warp-in after warp-in is so annoying. ;_;
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On July 15 2011 03:48 lol wrote:
One thing I find frustrating in TvP is that you can't really punish a Protoss who has a bad army placement. Like if you are doing multiply drops and he just a-move his whole 1 control group-army to one expansion, your other "free" drop wont make any damage because he can just warp-in units to save his ass.
And the fact that you can die when he expands but pressure you and just reinforce with warp-in after warp-in is so annoying. ;_;
One thing I find frustrating in PvT is that you can't really punish a terran who has a bad army placement. Like if they are doing multiple drops that just means I should be able to A move his base but his got bunkers and siege tanks and ghosts and PF and then i have to waste all my reinforcement warp-ins fighting off a mixture of MMM at all my expansions while he can just throw down mules to save his ass.
And the fact you can die when he expands off 4 rax while still pressuring you and rallying his barracks to your natural wave after wave is so annoying. ;_;
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I find this funny because I am always fustrated with the PvT matchup and can't think about how to win it.
I'm not gosu by any standerds. But here is basically what I came up with for terran to destroy protoss.
7 minute timing (if he has expo, it dies)
make mech.
Get upgrades for mech. Get a lot of tanks and even more thors.
have a full mech army and should have taken your 4th and 5th by this time.
If he has colo. Then this should be decent to counter. Though you should have vikings that easily deal with colo.
Generally if you play harass style he won't have as many bases. You can easily keep him from being maxed while you get your 3/3 upgraded mech and then just sit with your tank and wait for him to come to you. once he does. you win.
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On July 15 2011 00:37 NExt wrote:
I understand how frustrating this game is so I won't say much, but coming from a Protoss player.
Its not that easy. Terran are tough. ♥
gl hf
THIS. I hate bioballs so much. To the OP: You think Terran is favored in TvP, and I agree with you. Just keep working on it. What league are you in? We can do practice matches if you want.
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On July 15 2011 04:28 edc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 00:37 NExt wrote:
I understand how frustrating this game is so I won't say much, but coming from a Protoss player.
Its not that easy. Terran are tough. ♥
gl hf THIS. I hate bioballs so much. To the OP: You think Terran is favored in TvP, and I agree with you. Just keep working on it. What league are you in? We can do practice matches if you want.
Grandmasterleague. I think its Terran favored at the very top, but I think Protoss is better and has better results at lower levels, because we Terrans don't know how to abuse all the things right. Thats why Koreans own so much.
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On July 15 2011 04:21 masterbreti wrote:
I find this funny because I am always fustrated with the PvT matchup and can't think about how to win it.
I'm not gosu by any standerds. But here is basically what I came up with for terran to destroy protoss.
7 minute timing (if he has expo, it dies)
Transition into marauder heavy with maybe %25 marines behind marauders.
Once you get 3rd base you should be close to max. Slowy tech away from bio and start making mech.
Either try to drop him to get rid of your supply or try to lose a little bit at a time in order to make mech.
Get upgrades for mech. Get a lot of tanks and even more thors.
Once your bio is widdled away you have a full mech army and should have taken your 4th and 5th by this time.
If he has colo. Then this should be decent to counter. Though you should have vikings that easily deal with colo.
Generally if you play harass style he won't have as many bases. You can easily keep him from being maxed while you get your 3/3 upgraded mech and then just sit with your tank and wait for him to come to you. once he does. you win.
well, whatever you do, don't listen to this guy
also, just doing drops obviously isn't enough to win it
drops are more for putting their main army out of position or a really good harass if you know their main army is out of position to clean it up otherwise it does literally nothing and you'll probably be on the losing end to some warp ins
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On July 15 2011 05:16 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 04:21 masterbreti wrote:
I find this funny because I am always fustrated with the PvT matchup and can't think about how to win it.
I'm not gosu by any standerds. But here is basically what I came up with for terran to destroy protoss.
7 minute timing (if he has expo, it dies)
Transition into marauder heavy with maybe %25 marines behind marauders.
Once you get 3rd base you should be close to max. Slowy tech away from bio and start making mech.
Either try to drop him to get rid of your supply or try to lose a little bit at a time in order to make mech.
Get upgrades for mech. Get a lot of tanks and even more thors.
Once your bio is widdled away you have a full mech army and should have taken your 4th and 5th by this time.
If he has colo. Then this should be decent to counter. Though you should have vikings that easily deal with colo.
Generally if you play harass style he won't have as many bases. You can easily keep him from being maxed while you get your 3/3 upgraded mech and then just sit with your tank and wait for him to come to you. once he does. you win. well, whatever you do, don't listen to this guy also, just doing drops obviously isn't enough to win it drops are more for putting their main army out of position or a really good harass if you know their main army is out of position to clean it up otherwise it does literally nothing and you'll probably be on the losing end to some warp ins
My point is finally. regardless of whatever he does. Nobody doesMech Terran vs Protoss. I added in bio because he seems to use bio more. If he went full mech, He would win because protoss cannot handle mech well if they are not prepared for it
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I'm in the same boat but with all enemy races lol (Z,P). I do feel that Terran is the best race at the highest levels but I'm just not good enough to do what you have to do in order to win. I know that I should be like Puma with harassing at 2-3 places while pressuring with my main army while taking more bases and keeping up impeccable macro, perfect EMPs and perfect army movements/positioning. But it's too hard. This is why Koreans have so much more success with Terrans, they're good enough to get all the abusive stuff out of the race.
I'm probably better off switching to an easier race.
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On July 15 2011 05:20 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 05:16 Itsmedudeman wrote:On July 15 2011 04:21 masterbreti wrote:
I find this funny because I am always fustrated with the PvT matchup and can't think about how to win it.
I'm not gosu by any standerds. But here is basically what I came up with for terran to destroy protoss.
7 minute timing (if he has expo, it dies)
Transition into marauder heavy with maybe %25 marines behind marauders.
Once you get 3rd base you should be close to max. Slowy tech away from bio and start making mech.
Either try to drop him to get rid of your supply or try to lose a little bit at a time in order to make mech.
Get upgrades for mech. Get a lot of tanks and even more thors.
Once your bio is widdled away you have a full mech army and should have taken your 4th and 5th by this time.
If he has colo. Then this should be decent to counter. Though you should have vikings that easily deal with colo.
Generally if you play harass style he won't have as many bases. You can easily keep him from being maxed while you get your 3/3 upgraded mech and then just sit with your tank and wait for him to come to you. once he does. you win. well, whatever you do, don't listen to this guy also, just doing drops obviously isn't enough to win it drops are more for putting their main army out of position or a really good harass if you know their main army is out of position to clean it up otherwise it does literally nothing and you'll probably be on the losing end to some warp ins My point is finally. regardless of whatever he does. Nobody doesMech Terran vs Protoss. I added in bio because he seems to use bio more. If he went full mech, He would win because protoss cannot handle mech well if they are not prepared for it
Nobody goes mech because it's awful. Period. It's not some sort of master unit composition that you've seem to figured out and that you think the pros need to pick up, but with the nerf to thors it will never be viable again. The upgrades take too long to transition into from bio so you'll probably be behind by 2/2 if the protoss is good with his chronoboosts, and it's not like the protoss has to change his tech path to deal with mech since gateway/colossus are good enough to deal with it.
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Well Bio obv isn't working for OP so he should be able to try something new.
Its an older match but watch MC vs Jinro on Scrap. Jinro used mech well.. I know with thor nef its not as good, but if he plays passive, its not going to change much since thors will have full energy.
Toss isn't going to run into 20+tanks, If they do i would laugh, since the tanks (if placed well, and it being Naruto I assume he would) will almost near destroy any land units. Mech is also ff proff pretty much.
Only thing I could see coming from protoss that would be deadly to mech would be carriers and mass air. Getting a mothership late game. But in ,atches, both carriers and mothership are rarely seen.
Nobody goes mech because it's awful. Period. It's not some sort of master unit composition that you've seem to figured out and that you think the pros need to pick up, but with the nerf to thors it will never be viable again. The upgrades take too long to transition into from bio so you'll probably be behind by 2/2 if the protoss is good with his chronoboosts, and it's not like the protoss has to change his tech path to deal with mech since gateway/colossus are good enough to deal with it
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Only one way Silv. Quit your job and get crackin'! :D
Or do the Goody-style.
Or change your race!
Or get mTw to pick up a few more players to train with.
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On July 15 2011 05:16 Itsmedudeman wrote:
also, just doing drops obviously isn't enough to win it
drops are more for putting their main army out of position or a really good harass if you know their main army is out of position to clean it up otherwise it does literally nothing and you'll probably be on the losing end to some warp ins
I think that this is the best advice in the thread. Drops are incredibly easy to deal with as protoss unless you are forcing his army to not be able to deal with the drop. I think one of the key fundamentals of playing a proper TvP is that your army can always run away unless you're stupid and get caught by FFs.
Try dropping 2 medivacs worth of units while pushing the front and just staying far enough away from the sentries that he can't forcefield you. The difference in damage you can do between a 1 medivac drop and a 2 medivac drop is pretty big, especially considering most protoss only leave enough units/warp ins behind to clean up a 1 medivac drop.
I would suggest adding blueflames and no vikings until they hit like 4 colossi. Not having to use vikings means you can have a nice medivac/upgrade count, as well as take a quick third (only need 3 gases), which allows you to support a double starport later. This removes the normal low unit count drawback the double starport usually causes and allows you to pump out vikings if the protoss does hit that crit mass of colossi. Vikings actually do pretty bad dps/cost compared to marauders. Its also pretty easy to trade units for colossi if you just spread into a concave, stim in, then box a group of marauders and target fire.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 15 2011 00:23 mTw|NarutO wrote:
................ I'm so angry right now and I just don't know a better way to get off with my anger. I seriously believe that Terran vs Protoss is Terran favored if you play it right and know how to abuse Terran to the right amount, but I just fucking can't do it.
When I try to drop, he has an observer that spotted it, blink stalkers in position or a warp in ready. When I take big fights and EMP perfectly and all his colossus die to my vikings I win the fight and lose because I cannot beat the reinforcements.
I fail to understand the timings and mechanics the match up totally. I don't know how I can expand, don't die to timings while having enough units to pressure myself. When I send out a drop I seem to have not enough units to do a harass in multiple places or create pressure. A Terran army is also so fragile to balance. If you have too much vikings, you miss firepower. If you have too low medivac count you miss healing power. If you have not enough marines, chargelot kill you. If you have too many, colossus and storm ownes you.
I seriously have no clue, since no matter how I open or how I play, I seem to run into counters blindly or just perform really bad. Sometimes I throw away due to overagression... but I just cant SIT and do nothing and wait for Protoss to move in the open... but all my harass attemps are shut down with so much precision.. that I end up being 5 base vs 5 base.. which is not a good situation.
I can win the maxed out battles, but I can never win against reinforcements, since Protoss reinforcements are nearly instant while mine are not......... FML.
<3
How Ive always felt about this stupid matchup! I know its not bad for terran, but there's something Im not getting.
I think one of the key fundamentals of playing a proper TvP is that your army can always run away unless you're stupid and get caught by FFs.
Not really - the important units die (medivacs, vikigns).
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On July 15 2011 06:09 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 00:23 mTw|NarutO wrote:
................ I'm so angry right now and I just don't know a better way to get off with my anger. I seriously believe that Terran vs Protoss is Terran favored if you play it right and know how to abuse Terran to the right amount, but I just fucking can't do it.
When I try to drop, he has an observer that spotted it, blink stalkers in position or a warp in ready. When I take big fights and EMP perfectly and all his colossus die to my vikings I win the fight and lose because I cannot beat the reinforcements.
I fail to understand the timings and mechanics the match up totally. I don't know how I can expand, don't die to timings while having enough units to pressure myself. When I send out a drop I seem to have not enough units to do a harass in multiple places or create pressure. A Terran army is also so fragile to balance. If you have too much vikings, you miss firepower. If you have too low medivac count you miss healing power. If you have not enough marines, chargelot kill you. If you have too many, colossus and storm ownes you.
I seriously have no clue, since no matter how I open or how I play, I seem to run into counters blindly or just perform really bad. Sometimes I throw away due to overagression... but I just cant SIT and do nothing and wait for Protoss to move in the open... but all my harass attemps are shut down with so much precision.. that I end up being 5 base vs 5 base.. which is not a good situation.
I can win the maxed out battles, but I can never win against reinforcements, since Protoss reinforcements are nearly instant while mine are not......... FML.
<3 How Ive always felt about this stupid matchup! I know its not bad for terran, but there's something Im not getting. Show nested quote +I think one of the key fundamentals of playing a proper TvP is that your army can always run away unless you're stupid and get caught by FFs. Not really - the important units die (medivacs, vikigns).
Really Jinro, Really?!
Why not mech, heck you devolped the style in your match vs MC ib scrap. There hasn't been any major nefs to mech. What makes such a difference in a few months.
Please enlighten me on how mech doesn't destroy protoss if Terran plays turtle style.
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cause everything is countered by HT?every fucking unit has energy.perhaps Mech + Ghosts.
Emp your whole army before the fight.......................................gj Blizz.
and i pray for you brethren that you have emp left for the Templars,rofl
Even Thorzain stated that really everything a Terran has is countered by HT.
You stand a good chance if EMPs hits goodly,otherwise a Protoss maxed army is the strongest in the Game by FAR,and will obliterate you.
And i think everybody feals the weakness in terran lategame reinforcement.,therefore they trade armys with you,cause they know,they will come out far ahead.
If your battle goes wrong you´re dead.
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On July 15 2011 06:15 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 06:09 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On July 15 2011 00:23 mTw|NarutO wrote:
................ I'm so angry right now and I just don't know a better way to get off with my anger. I seriously believe that Terran vs Protoss is Terran favored if you play it right and know how to abuse Terran to the right amount, but I just fucking can't do it.
When I try to drop, he has an observer that spotted it, blink stalkers in position or a warp in ready. When I take big fights and EMP perfectly and all his colossus die to my vikings I win the fight and lose because I cannot beat the reinforcements.
I fail to understand the timings and mechanics the match up totally. I don't know how I can expand, don't die to timings while having enough units to pressure myself. When I send out a drop I seem to have not enough units to do a harass in multiple places or create pressure. A Terran army is also so fragile to balance. If you have too much vikings, you miss firepower. If you have too low medivac count you miss healing power. If you have not enough marines, chargelot kill you. If you have too many, colossus and storm ownes you.
I seriously have no clue, since no matter how I open or how I play, I seem to run into counters blindly or just perform really bad. Sometimes I throw away due to overagression... but I just cant SIT and do nothing and wait for Protoss to move in the open... but all my harass attemps are shut down with so much precision.. that I end up being 5 base vs 5 base.. which is not a good situation.
I can win the maxed out battles, but I can never win against reinforcements, since Protoss reinforcements are nearly instant while mine are not......... FML.
<3 How Ive always felt about this stupid matchup! I know its not bad for terran, but there's something Im not getting. I think one of the key fundamentals of playing a proper TvP is that your army can always run away unless you're stupid and get caught by FFs. Not really - the important units die (medivacs, vikigns). Really Jinro, Really?! Why not mech, heck you devolped the style in your match vs MC ib scrap. There hasn't been any major nefs to mech. What makes such a difference in a few months. Please enlighten me on how mech doesn't destroy protoss if Terran plays turtle style.
The Thor nerf was pretty big. Personally I'd like to see the nerf reversed and, if needed, re-nerfed in a way that HTs aren't so good against them. Maybe they could reduce the max energy and the energy required for strike cannons, that way they could feedback Thor's to stop them using strike cannon but not do so much damage to them.
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On July 15 2011 02:14 BobbysBack wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 00:24 WarChimp wrote:
Thus why I switched to Zerg. I can ZvP pretty well, I cannot TvP at all. Whaaa. No you can't switch to zerg. Then I can't ZvT you...T_T;;;
Sorry mate, that's just the way it worked out haha.
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On July 15 2011 06:09 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +I think one of the key fundamentals of playing a proper TvP is that your army can always run away unless you're stupid and get caught by FFs. Not really - the important units die (medivacs, vikigns).
And that's why overseers suck. Big investment, doesn't matter if you upgrade speed or not. If you decide to run away..
Oh, ha ha that was great. I just imagined hydras and brood lords running away off creep.
That's why overseers suck.
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yeah i hate protoss too
pvp is such a bitch mu
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On July 15 2011 11:15 FragKrag wrote:
yeah i hate protoss too
pvp is such a bitch mu
Yeah I hate protoss as well, Zerg always kill me with their late game composition.
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Fyi, Naruto is a very gosu forum veteran who's opinions should be treated with respect. Very very good bw and sc2 player, I love tvp but I'm diamond so I have nothing to say. You are at a level way above me and most of this thread (besides jinro <3)
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This is me as well, just replace TvP with PvZ.
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I have the same problems as NarutO... It's so frustrating. I lose every single game against Protoss even if I'm strong favoured. It makes no fun
I like Terran and I'm playing it for about 12 years now (sc1) but I really think about switching cuz of TvP .
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The fragile balance in the T's army and warp-in makes the match up really hard and precise. It punishes tiny mistakes. It's one of my worst match ups as well.
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I absolutely agree. Warpgate mechanic is imbalanced in late game, because you can instantly remax compared to other races.
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Ah god TvP
I've lost to players that seemingly do nothing all day but land one very nice storm which completely changes the tide. It seems like if you don't do decent damage with drops, it gets very difficult to win. And high level Protoss usually have countermeasures against drops.
Also, a properly controlled 3 warpgate voidray build kicks my ass all the time on Metal. Lovely how you can range the workers from the low ground.
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I feel the same way - I'm mostly a P player but I switch to R to spice it up. Whenever I WATCH T's play TvP it always seems easymode - make marauders, get stim, land 3 good EMPs and then kite/stutter-step your way to victory. But then when I try to do it myself, I always get caught out of position, miss critical tech switches, fail to dodge out of storms, lose my medivacs, miss EMPs, have too many or too few vikings. It's not as easy as I thought
It's a delicate balance. I honestly believe if both T and P play properly T is at least slightly favored, all other things equal, since Marauders have a huge damage bonus against a huge portion of the P's ground army, and EMP is guaranteed to remove half of the overall health on most P units, (but more importantly, energy on sentries, so the FFs you need to beat a mass marauder comp just aren't there) but it doesn't take a whole lot to tip the balance, and just lose everything for no cost to the Protoss.
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On July 15 2011 23:30 Vega62a wrote:I feel the same way - I'm mostly a P player but I switch to R to spice it up. Whenever I WATCH T's play TvP it always seems easymode - make marauders, get stim, land 3 good EMPs and then kite/stutter-step your way to victory. But then when I try to do it myself, I always get caught out of position, miss critical tech switches, fail to dodge out of storms, lose my medivacs, miss EMPs, have too many or too few vikings. It's not as easy as I thought It's a delicate balance. I honestly believe if both T and P play properly T is at least slightly favored, all other things equal, since Marauders have a huge damage bonus against a huge portion of the P's ground army, and EMP is guaranteed to remove half of the overall health on most P units, (but more importantly, energy on sentries, so the FFs you need to beat a mass marauder comp just aren't there) but it doesn't take a whole lot to tip the balance, and just lose everything for no cost to the Protoss.
But when you're playing cutthroat with ghosts (since ghosts suck pretty much when there's nothing left to EMP), it's rare that you can hit every sentry twice with emps. What's left are either some pocket of sentries you missed or sentries you failed to hit twice, which means just enough forcefields are there to wreck your forces. Meanwhile, in the HT camp, if they have 50 energy left, prepare for mass feedbacks on everything with energy (basically every "power" unit of Terran).
The thing that pisses me off is that it doesn't even feel like a razor thin margin. It feels like an uphill battle the entire game. You do guaranteed damage with a drop as the first encounter, but that doesn't mean you're ahead. You get off really good blanket EMPs, but that doesn't mean you'll win the battle or get a good trade. There are no good indicators for Terran in TvP. All the old indicators: "I traded armies, but I'm ahead because he relies on tech!" "He's going colossi, which means he won't branch into twilight tech for another base!" "His tech to AoE is slow, my bio beats his gateway!" Those are all invalid now. Now, my only indication that I'm winning lies within my army standing while his is not.
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On July 16 2011 00:52 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2011 23:30 Vega62a wrote:I feel the same way - I'm mostly a P player but I switch to R to spice it up. Whenever I WATCH T's play TvP it always seems easymode - make marauders, get stim, land 3 good EMPs and then kite/stutter-step your way to victory. But then when I try to do it myself, I always get caught out of position, miss critical tech switches, fail to dodge out of storms, lose my medivacs, miss EMPs, have too many or too few vikings. It's not as easy as I thought It's a delicate balance. I honestly believe if both T and P play properly T is at least slightly favored, all other things equal, since Marauders have a huge damage bonus against a huge portion of the P's ground army, and EMP is guaranteed to remove half of the overall health on most P units, (but more importantly, energy on sentries, so the FFs you need to beat a mass marauder comp just aren't there) but it doesn't take a whole lot to tip the balance, and just lose everything for no cost to the Protoss. But when you're playing cutthroat with ghosts (since ghosts suck pretty much when there's nothing left to EMP), it's rare that you can hit every sentry twice with emps. What's left are either some pocket of sentries you missed or sentries you failed to hit twice, which means just enough forcefields are there to wreck your forces. Meanwhile, in the HT camp, if they have 50 energy left, prepare for mass feedbacks on everything with energy (basically every "power" unit of Terran). The thing that pisses me off is that it doesn't even feel like a razor thin margin. It feels like an uphill battle the entire game. You do guaranteed damage with a drop as the first encounter, but that doesn't mean you're ahead. You get off really good blanket EMPs, but that doesn't mean you'll win the battle or get a good trade. There are no good indicators for Terran in TvP. All the old indicators: "I traded armies, but I'm ahead because he relies on tech!" "He's going colossi, which means he won't branch into twilight tech for another base!" "His tech to AoE is slow, my bio beats his gateway!" Those are all invalid now. Now, my only indication that I'm winning lies within my army standing while his is not.
I disagree with a lot of what you said there (Marauders are the "power" unit of PvT, tbh; ghosts are amazing when everything's already been EMP'd as they tear zealots to bits and can snipe high templar) but your last statement is very true - it's frustrating because it's really hard to gauge what the outcome of any engagement is going to be in PvT, and the only way you know you're GOING to win a match (or even that you're ahead in a match) is when you're in his base killing him. It feels at some point like you have to close your eyes and fling your army at his and see who wins.
But from the Protoss side of that, it's still true - I could be +1 upgrades up and have superior numbers in a gateway composition (especially early-ish game, around the 12 minute mark, before any real tech or aoe comes out) but if a ball of marauders has one too many medivacs healing it, they're going to stim and I'm going to lose my whole army, and if they have one too few medivacs, I'm going to roflstomp it. When an engagement is one sided, it's ABSURDLY one-sided, from either perspective. A marauder ball will either get butchered or wind up trading 20 supply for 80 supply.
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Thanks for encouraging words. Thanks JinrO! Hope to see you again in the future. In real life as well as in tournaments! :-)!
On July 15 2011 13:06 n.DieJokes wrote:
Fyi, Naruto is a very gosu forum veteran who's opinions should be treated with respect. Very very good bw and sc2 player, I love tvp but I'm diamond so I have nothing to say. You are at a level way above me and most of this thread (besides jinro <3)
Thank you very much for the compliments. I'm not that good in Starcraft 2.. but I'm trying to improve when I have time to play. Happy birthday.
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EPT
