• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:56
CEST 15:56
KST 22:56
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments0[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence10Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch0Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups4WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia8Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues29
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion ASL20 General Discussion ASL TICKET LIVE help! :D Soulkey on ASL S20 NaDa's Body
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group D [ASL20] Ro16 Group C [Megathread] Daily Proleagues BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Borderlands 3 General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
i'm really bored guys
Peanutsc
I <=> 9
KrillinFromwales
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1414 users

Oponent APM comparison

Blogs > opisska
Post a Reply
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
June 14 2011 20:46 GMT
#1
So many times I had the temptation to start a topic in TL's forum, yet I felt I am not worthy as a poor platinum player. And today, I have discovered the blogs section, where I can, apparently, make my mind free of all my SC2 thougths that have been weighing it down for so long. So let's get starte with a nice little graph.

[image loading]

I have already played more than 200 1v1s since I started to save all my replays and I have become quite obsessed with looking at them through sc2gears as "data" (maybe it has to do with me being a physicist? I don't know). One thing that struck me early was that my APM is 68.

Or 67, maybe 70. But its incredibly stable. It does not rise, it fluctuates minimally game to game, its almost amazing. Shouldn't I become a drummer? I apparently have a hidden sense for rythm!

Probably even more suprising was the discovery, that most of my oponents are significantly faster. In the sequence of players from my replays, ordered by APM, I am at the edge of the bottommost 25 %. Yet I am getting a consistent win ratio slightly over 50 percent, as expected given the matchmaking algortihm (and me hopefully slightly improving over time, as I was promoted from gold to platinum during this period).

So I played with the numbers a little bit more and greated the not-so-neat graph above. My 205 oponents were split into 5 equal bins in APM. The X-axis then shows the middle of each bin (the rightmost bin being the largest as there are even 3 >200 APM people in my replay pack (and I beat 2 of them!)) and the Y-axis the win ratio of my oponents in the bin. (I tried with higher number of bins, but the data is too noisy).

The outcome is: APM indeed matters, but not to an extend some people are advertising. I have much easier time beating people below my APM, but even for people with twice as many actions per minute than I have, I can mantain a win ratio of 43 %.

The question is: why do these people do wrong? Why do they spam so many actions, when they apparently do not contribute to their success?

I was actually inspired to do this analysis when I watched TotalBiscuit's laddering stream, as he kept spam selecting his buildings all the time, thus generating probably a fairly impressive APM. Yet he failed quite miserably during some of his games (but as he commented it with his attitude, it was quite fun to watch anyway). Is this a trendy style or something? Because if streamers do that, I can see quite a lot of people following suit. But if anyone doing this dedicated all these actions to something actually usefull, he would have played much better ...

***
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
iSTime
Profile Joined November 2006
1579 Posts
June 14 2011 20:53 GMT
#2
A lot of people just mimic things they see pros doing without thinking about it on their own, so that's part of it.

It's not surprising that APM is correlated with skill though. Clearly, as one improves, their APM will go up, since they are accomplishing more tasks in a shorter period of time. However, this also doesn't take into account a particular person's efficiency. Some people have 70 APM but accomplish as much as someone else with 120 APM.

I think people rarely ever become so much more efficient that their APM drops, though, they just use the extra APM cleared up by being more efficient to do even more stuff.
www.infinityseven.net
Dalguno
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2446 Posts
June 14 2011 20:55 GMT
#3
My friend who is diamond has a much higher APM than I do (I'm masters). I was blown away when in a game we played, he had 170 average APM compared to my 125. Then, I watched him play. He clicks completely excessively. Most of his APM comes from rapid mouse clicking. I told him that if he wanted to get to masters, he needed to stop clicking so much and focus on more important things.
"I'm gonna keep making drones cause I'm a baller, and ballers make drones." -Snute
doubleupgradeobbies!
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia1187 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-14 21:02:35
June 14 2011 20:59 GMT
#4
Well I don't play sc2, but I assume the same logic from bw would probably apply.

Generally speaking, when you consistently beat people with significantly higher apm, it's 1 of 2 things:

Either, said people are not being efficient with their actions, eg spamming or performing lots of unnecessary actions, or just be playing in a much more micro intensive style.

Or, as is generally the case when your at some midling ranking, it's because people have been promoted to that ranking for different reasons. Everyone has their strength and weaknesses, I would assume your generally better at decision making, or game sense or choose more appropriate builds for the map than other people around your ranking, while some of them may be there primarily from having better mechanics mechanics. In other words they genuinely have better mechanics than you, but you make up for it with better decision making or something.
MSL, 2003-2011, RIP. OSL, 2000-2012, RIP. Proleague, 2003-2012, RIP. And then there was none... Even good things must come to an end.
Deja Thoris
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
South Africa646 Posts
June 14 2011 21:07 GMT
#5
Theres a recent replay of a silver guy asking for help. Dude had 250apm from spam clicking but he does things like forget to put drones on gas on his first extractor.

High apm is good to have if its useful but if it's just spam clicking its a waste and detracts from things you should be doing.
StrangrDangr
Profile Joined March 2011
United States291 Posts
June 14 2011 21:08 GMT
#6
APM is tricky, while higher effective APM is obviously helpful, even low APM can get you to a relatively high level of play (I have seen several masters with sub 100 APM). I am mid-high diamond and my APM is between about 68-75 (going up with game length) each game with little to no variation, yet I play people who have twice that but seem less effective at multitasking. I wish there was some way of measuring effective APM vs. spam, as it would probably cause a lot of the spammers out there to cut down on their useless clicking which one would assume would help raise their level of play. Or does spamming so much actually help?
"I'm on four gates, so technically if I don't win there is something wrong with this game." desrow
Greatness
Profile Joined May 2011
United States450 Posts
June 14 2011 21:10 GMT
#7
1400point Zerg masters here with like 60apm.

I hotkey everything so I don't switch things much.
Alejandrisha
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States6565 Posts
June 14 2011 21:14 GMT
#8
It's the popular concensus that there is a threshold apm of around 80-90 where you can accomplish just about everything you need to at a high level. Anything over that can be attributed to spamming, the act of telling yourself you are doing more or playing faster by clicking more than you need to or trying to keep your apm high because you feel more comfortable clicking at the same pace throughout the game, regardless of how many tasks you actually have at hand. Right from the start of the game, if you just rallied your workers to mine and didn't consciously mineral stack, you'd only have about 20 real apm.

But most players find that sluggish and unamusing so they will spam hotkeys or click excessively to keep themselves focused. In terms of lower league play, 30-60 is sufficient, as in there are only so many meaningful tasks within one's grasp to accomplish. As you get higher in rank, you must constantly keep tabs on your enemy's army movement, composition, size, economy timing, economy saturation and tech. Scouting becomes more important at a higher level and I find that the better I get at the game, the more attention actions I devote to scouting. Other than scouting, when you are doing tasks such as building workers, buildings and units, a very low amount of apm is necessary. But when you incorporate scouting, you need to know where you must position your army and how to align it and this requires significantly more actions.

btw. time where are you
get rich or die mining
TL+ Member
TotalBiscuit
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom5437 Posts
June 14 2011 21:46 GMT
#9
I "spam select" my buildings to check timings on build completion, it's completely standard and most people do it.
CommentatorHost of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
June 15 2011 07:12 GMT
#10
oh my god, the most hillarious brit ever is in my thread!

i did not mean to criticize your play. If youu can do it naturally, then it is probably good for you. on the other hand, you obviously miss other things you should be doing (supplies, army control), so it looks to an external observer as that it may take too much of your time.

I know that every pro does it exactly this way. My point was that you people copy it without being actually able to benefit from it.

Anyway, you manage to play while constantly talking and being hillarious, i definitely admire that!
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
Tegin
Profile Joined November 2010
United States840 Posts
June 15 2011 07:29 GMT
#11
Diamond protoss here and I average somewhere between 90 and 100 APM. It's never higher or lower. I generally try to make any clicking or mouse movements accurate rather than spamming and use hotkeys for nearly everything.
Pain is weakness leaving the body.
blah_blah
Profile Joined April 2011
346 Posts
June 15 2011 08:22 GMT
#12
On June 15 2011 06:46 TotalBiscuit wrote:
I "spam select" my buildings to check timings on build completion, it's completely standard and most people do it.


You really do search for every mention of your name, don't you?
sleigh bells
Profile Joined April 2011
United States358 Posts
June 15 2011 14:52 GMT
#13
Criticizing TB is BAD FOR ESPORTZ!!!!11
Sup son? ¯\__(ツ)__/¯
Gogleion
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States534 Posts
June 15 2011 19:38 GMT
#14
It is strange how you can get into a rhythm and have very close APM's for two very different games.

It's far better to have great game sense and poor APM than to have great APM and poor game sense. APM just isn't a very good metric of a lot of things.
EffOrt. That is all.
qdenser
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada133 Posts
June 15 2011 19:58 GMT
#15
being a physics student doesn't exactly make you a physicist sorry
BW is still out there and a lots of people still watch it. SC2 is a different game and different people. Please go back to BW if you think sc2 is not suited for you - Dustin Browder
MyLastSerenade
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany710 Posts
June 15 2011 23:31 GMT
#16
i also use sc2gears, but not to look up my or my opponents apm.
i watch the hotkey setups and if i face a zerg player i look up how big his injection gaps were. this tells much more about a player imo.
i dont know if it is possible to watch the average energy of oc's and nexus, would also be interesting.
u can see at the hotkeysetup if he is just a apm spammer or if he uses his clicks efficent imo.
Tin_Foil
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States243 Posts
June 15 2011 23:55 GMT
#17
I play in mid-high masters(though I've been on a forced hiatus for a while) with average 75 apm. I do feel too slow in some areas of the game, am working on speed.

Skill and apm often raise together, but apm is a poor estimate of skill IMO.
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
June 20 2011 21:03 GMT
#18
On June 16 2011 08:55 Tin_Foil wrote:
I play in mid-high masters(though I've been on a forced hiatus for a while) with average 75 apm. I do feel too slow in some areas of the game, am working on speed.
.


That is actually quite encouraging for me to read!
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The PondCast
13:00
Episode 63
CranKy Ducklings47
Liquipedia
Map Test Tournament
11:00
$450 3v3 Open Cup
WardiTV750
IndyStarCraft 200
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 200
Rex 106
mcanning 49
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 58418
Calm 8050
Horang2 5202
Bisu 2172
EffOrt 564
Hyuk 551
actioN 451
Light 351
Mini 322
Pusan 259
[ Show more ]
ZerO 226
Soma 137
Soulkey 122
Snow 107
hero 89
Hyun 75
Rush 70
Mind 66
ggaemo 66
Sea.KH 52
ToSsGirL 34
Free 33
sorry 33
Sharp 30
HiyA 28
JYJ27
Sexy 22
scan(afreeca) 17
Aegong 12
Icarus 12
Terrorterran 10
SilentControl 10
IntoTheRainbow 6
Dota 2
Gorgc5257
singsing3374
qojqva2482
Dendi918
XcaliburYe172
Fuzer 168
Counter-Strike
zeus709
hiko476
markeloff171
oskar102
edward0
Other Games
gofns20837
tarik_tv16170
olofmeister1154
B2W.Neo987
DeMusliM314
Lowko294
Hui .214
XaKoH 137
ArmadaUGS94
QueenE61
NeuroSwarm37
Trikslyr26
ZerO(Twitch)10
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix5
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis3852
• Jankos1574
Other Games
• WagamamaTV229
• Shiphtur101
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
20h 4m
Zoun vs Classic
Korean StarCraft League
1d 13h
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
1d 18h
RSL Revival
1d 20h
Reynor vs Cure
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Online Event
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
[ Show More ]
LiuLi Cup
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-10
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL World Championship of Poland 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.