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This is something I’ve wanted to get off my chest for a while. I hope my words are not misunderstood as hurtful or offensive. Rather, I intend for them to be helpful in a sort of tough-love manner.
This post is directed towards those of you that own SC2, are equipped to play it, and yet, quite honestly, miserably waste too much time forumcrafting, watching streams, chatting, etc.
Afraid to ladder? I’ll just watch IdrA play and learn something. Brain hurts from losing? I’ll read a strategy thread and get some insight. Our options for ‘supplemental improvement’ SC2 media are overwhelming and ultimately counter effective in our goals for improvement. Yes, this method is a crock of shit.
The best lesson we can learn from pros isn’t a guide, a stream, a build, a style… it’s their practice philosophy: mass gaming. I guarantee you even the pros who admit they’re not mass gamers played a shitton at one point to get those mechanics.
The people in bronze-plat/diamond complaining about imbalance … makes me sick. You haven’t played enough to warrant complaints about imbalance. Your mechanics are not capable of playing the theoretical game-situations of which you speak.
Now, I realize the vast majority of us can’t realistically put in the same hours of practice that the pros do. That’s not what I’m saying here.
Think about the numbers of viewers watching GSL and NASL every night… good God. Even justin.tv pro streamers consistently get 1000+ viewers. And don’t even get me started on the people in stream chats. In a decade when you look back at your Starcraft history/experience, what do you want to remember? All of the posts you made on team liquid? I hope not. I want to remember the time I won that LAN... the hours of training and the results that came out of it... my growth/improvement as a player. The fact that I put my mind on something and got it done. Do work.
I hate to use the sport-to-esport cliché, but I now think of teamliquid as a sports bar… washed up old guys spectating and talking about the game, and the occasional bar fight. What’s so wrong with that? Nothing. But TL doesn’t need to be so similar. Unlike the old man at the bar stool, you are capable of playing the sport (and being good at it, for that matter). Most of us don't have a full-length football field in our backyard. SC2, on the other hand, is just a click away.
We lost the correlation between playing and success. "The more you play the better you get" - this statement roughly applies to all games. Why not starcraft? We're overexposed to supplemental media that preaches instant results. Somewhere along the line, the actual playing of the game got lost as our vital improvement mechanism.
This quote from the SlayerSBaekho post comes to mind:
Being grandmaster league, or top 50 NA do requires talents, but being top 500? its not about skill, its about amount of time and thoughts you put in the game. In fact, if bronze player comes to me and says "omg i suck at this game, no talents" I would deny his proposal unless he played 2k games and worked so hard to get better.
source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=207275
I shall address one counterargument…”it’s just a game, I enjoy playing it casually.”
My response: You probably spend time on TL that could be spent playing the game. Stop being a bitch. You’re a gamer, it’s time to get serious and bash nerds. The feeling that comes from winning, because you know you trained, far overshadows the giddiness and quasi-social acceptance of a Day[9] Daily chat room.
So click that "find match" button and start practicing.
-Nairul
(P.S. I realize in taking the time to write this blog I’m a hypocrite. I am only a high diamond zerg, and I recognize that my mechanics are shit. Granted, I felt this needs to be said)
Poll: Agree/Disagree?Disagree (32) 56% Agree (25) 44% 57 total votes Your vote: Agree/Disagree? (Vote): Agree
(Vote): Disagree
  
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If I ladder 1v1, I want to be able to committ to it and play for at least ~2 - 3 hours a ladder session on top of reviewing my replays. With other stuff going on I haven't been able to find the time to do so. I dislike going on for 1 or 2 games then leaving because it's not fun on top of not being that productive. Hence, I spend a lot of time watching streams / games when I don't have enough time to ladder as much as I want to (which is quite a lot). That's just my experience anyway.
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So because not everyone enjoys starcraft the way you do, that means they must be "washed up old guys being bitches?" Should i also stop watching sports at all and get my ass down on the field until i make it into the nfl?
Makes sense
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No, stop projecting your own ideals and goals on the rest of he community. Personally I have come to terms with the fact I don't enjoy playing massgames of sc. I just do not find it enjoyable. I love to get in a few rounds at a LAN with my friends, but I don't want to ladder all day by any means.
I really enjoy watching the best of the pros play because it is entertaining to me to see people performing such a difficult and strategic feat at such a high level. I harbor no feelings of inadequacy doing this. I'm a smart guy and I know incould be very good if I put in the time, but I'm consciously choosing not to because I don't enjoy it.
I prefer to keep my SC mostly as a fun viewing experience. I focus my competitive and serious efforts on other activities (rock climbing).
I would say it's unhealthy to have no serious outlet where you are committed to excellence and improvement, but it certainly doesn't have to be SC, and it doesn't have to be everything you do.
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On June 13 2011 09:58 Louuster wrote:
So because not everyone enjoys starcraft the way you do, that means they must be "washed up old guys being bitches?" Should i also stop watching sports at all and get my ass down on the field until i make it into the nfl?
Makes sense
With SC2, the field is just a mouse-click away.
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On June 13 2011 10:00 Nairul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 09:58 Louuster wrote:
So because not everyone enjoys starcraft the way you do, that means they must be "washed up old guys being bitches?" Should i also stop watching sports at all and get my ass down on the field until i make it into the nfl?
Makes sense
With SC2, the field is just a mouse-click away.
It may just be clicking a mouse, but becoming a top progamer requires every bit as much work and commitment as becoming a pro football player.
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On June 13 2011 10:03 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 10:00 Nairul wrote:On June 13 2011 09:58 Louuster wrote:
So because not everyone enjoys starcraft the way you do, that means they must be "washed up old guys being bitches?" Should i also stop watching sports at all and get my ass down on the field until i make it into the nfl?
Makes sense
With SC2, the field is just a mouse-click away. It may just be clicking a mouse, but becoming a top progamer requires every bit as much work and commitment as becoming a pro football player.
Nairul wrote:
Now, I realize the vast majority of us can’t realistically put in the same hours of practice that the pros do. That’s not what I’m saying here.
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On June 13 2011 09:45 Nairul wrote:
(P.S. I realize in taking the time to write this blog I’m a hypocrite. I am only a high diamond zerg, and I recognize that my mechanics are shit. Granted, I felt this needs to be said)
This kind of nullifies your entire post.
I don't understand why you think anyone who has SCII and can play it should play until their fingers bleed and can play no more.
Why can't they enjoy watching pros, full well knowing that they'll never be able to execute gaming at such a high level? Most would love to be the best at something, but a lot of us know AND accept that we'll never hit that level. A game is called a game for that reason. It's for enjoyment, it's not meant to be grinded out like a job.
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For the people who sit around and theorycraft/whine about imbalance who aren't playing the game? Sure I agree.
For the people who simply enjoy spectating and being part of the casual community (aka general forum and stuff like that)? No, I disagree.
If you're gonna talk like you know what's going on-- play the damn game. If you just want to watch because you enjoy watching, I really don't think there's anything wrong with that either.
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How do you explain bronze players with a thousand games? There are ways to learn more effectively than others. If I watch pros, learn build orders and try to build a frame work of how games should go, I'll learn much more, much faster, than if I just mass game.
Learn what is good, practice right, then mass game. Don't just throw yourself at the ladder.
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On June 13 2011 10:06 MeteorRise wrote:
How do you explain bronze players with a thousand games? There are ways to learn more effectively than others. If I watch pros, learn build orders and try to build a frame work of how games should go, I'll learn much more, much faster, than if I just mass game.
Learn what is good, practice right, then mass game. Don't just throw yourself at the ladder.
Watching pros and learning build orders+strategy is a good supplement. But some people do it too much, and treat it like "replacement" to practice.
Edit: If there are bronze players with a thousand games, they should talk to SlayerSBaekho xD
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On June 13 2011 10:04 Nairul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 10:03 sob3k wrote:On June 13 2011 10:00 Nairul wrote:On June 13 2011 09:58 Louuster wrote:
So because not everyone enjoys starcraft the way you do, that means they must be "washed up old guys being bitches?" Should i also stop watching sports at all and get my ass down on the field until i make it into the nfl?
Makes sense
With SC2, the field is just a mouse-click away. It may just be clicking a mouse, but becoming a top progamer requires every bit as much work and commitment as becoming a pro football player. Show nested quote +Nairul wrote:
Now, I realize the vast majority of us can’t realistically put in the same hours of practice that the pros do. That’s not what I’m saying here.
Why can't we? You think the pros are all rich inheritees? They aren't.
So how much do you think we should play before we are satisfied? Plat? GM?
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1. I don't have the time to become an SC2 pro.
2. I prefer watching high level games to playing myself a lot of the time.
3. it’s just a game, I enjoy playing it casually.
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On June 13 2011 10:19 redFF wrote:
1. I don't have the time to become an SC2 pro.
2. I prefer watching high level games to playing myself a lot of the time.
3. it’s just a game, I enjoy playing it casually.
At no point in my post did I recommend that everyone ought to become an SC2 pro. I apologize for any misunderstanding.
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I've long been aware of my spending too much time on the forums. I wanted to improve, but I was too scared to ladder, and got frustrated when I made stupid stupid mistakes in games. I've accepted that I'm just plain not good at this game, so now I only follow the pro scene (because I love it so much) but don't worry about trying to improve at TL.
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On June 13 2011 10:23 ClysmiC wrote:
I've long been aware of my spending too much time on the forums. I wanted to improve, but I was too scared to ladder, and got frustrated when I made stupid stupid mistakes in games. I've accepted that I'm just plain not good at this game, so now I only follow the pro scene (because I love it so much) but don't worry about trying to improve at TL.
Being scared of the ladder is like being afraid of weights when you want to workout.
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On June 13 2011 10:24 Nairul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 10:23 ClysmiC wrote:
I've long been aware of my spending too much time on the forums. I wanted to improve, but I was too scared to ladder, and got frustrated when I made stupid stupid mistakes in games. I've accepted that I'm just plain not good at this game, so now I only follow the pro scene (because I love it so much) but don't worry about trying to improve at TL. Being scared of the ladder is like being afraid of weights when you want to workout.
It's more like being afraid of getting punched when you spar for boxing.
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Training/practicing for Starcraft is absurd for most casual gamers. I like to play other sports like basketball and soccer. Does that mean I train for those? No I just play for fun. I don't care about getting better. I will get better inevitably from playing but my motivation for playing isn't to get better. It's to have fun.
I find laddering to get boring after a couple of games, so I don't play that much. I like watching pro games and streams for fun. I browse TL because it's fun to interact with the community, not because I want to improve at Starcraft. In fact, the SC2 strat section is the part I read the least.
Also, past a point, just playing games will not help you get better if you don't know what you need to improve. That's why tons of terrible masters players claim imba lol.
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I agreed with you until you said:
On June 13 2011 09:45 Nairul wrote:
I shall address one counterargument…”it’s just a game, I enjoy playing it casually.”
My response: Stop being a bitch. You’re a gamer, it’s time to get serious and bash nerds. The feeling that comes from winning, because you know you trained, far overshadows the giddiness and quasi-social acceptance of a Day[9] Daily chat room.
-Nairul
Wtf does that mean? Someone likes to play Starcraft, (because it's a fun game), but doesn't want to become a grandmaster or an MLG champion, and they are a bitch? And they are wasting their time because they should get better so they can bash nerds?
You go a little overboard here dude.
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On June 13 2011 10:35 Darclite wrote:I agreed with you until you said: Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 09:45 Nairul wrote:
I shall address one counterargument…”it’s just a game, I enjoy playing it casually.”
My response: Stop being a bitch. You’re a gamer, it’s time to get serious and bash nerds. The feeling that comes from winning, because you know you trained, far overshadows the giddiness and quasi-social acceptance of a Day[9] Daily chat room.
-Nairul
Wtf does that mean? Someone likes to play Starcraft, (because it's a fun game), but doesn't want to become a grandmaster or an MLG champion, and they are a bitch? And they are wasting their time because they should get better so they can bash nerds? You go a little overboard here dude.
Understood. Thanks for your input.
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I agree with some of your points OP. I spend more time watching and hanging out in channels now, but that's because I'm kind of burned out on playing.
Anyways what annoys me most is when so many people ask for 1v1's in chat, and they ask for a league that's the same as they are. Just click the find match button! No need to ask, no need to search, they will put you against an even opponent!
Most people will say they get cheesed too much on ladder, but really they are just scared of laddering. I got several bnet friends who mass customs all day long and admit they are just scared to ladder for some reason.
Oddly enough I think they make the same mistake the OP makes in a roundabout way... They take the game TOO SERIOUSLY.
Just remember it's just a hobby. You play and get better because it's fun, not because it says something about your worth or lack of it.
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Osaka27130 Posts
Lots of people enjoy watching others excel at their hobbies. It is why I watch the NHL while also playing on the men's C team at the local rink. Doesn't make me a bitch.
I'm not really sure why you feel the need to adjudicate the amount of time people spend playing vs watching/reading. Online gaming has always had those who mass game, others those who use it as a social tool, and still others who enrich the experience by creating game related content. A healthy community needs all of these aspects.
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I generally can find about an hour or two a day I can commit to SC2. Depending on the time and how I'm feeling will determine whether I log in and play 4 or 5 games or get on TL and watch streams. I know tons of people who can put aside more time than that but I guess that's why I'm still high diamond and have yet to hit masters.
But yes I agree..mass laddering if done often and seriously will help.
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I agree with a lot of it, but some people just like having fun, and watching streams and all that is part of the fun, usually I play during the day and watch streams/browse TL at night when I am worn out.
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Thanks for all your input, it was good for me to hear the counter arguments and I can understand a lot of them.
The thing with me is, I like playing SC2 as much as the next guy... but I like even more the feeling of self-improvement. It's so gratifying.
A year or two ago on SC BW I used to be afraid of ICCup ladder. Playing more than 3 games would give me a headache, I hated how awful I was compared to the pros I watched on-stream. I couldn't do anything right, my multitude of mistakes angered me so that I didn't play as much. Same story as a lot of you here, I think.
Then by a stroke of luck I met a B- Zerg and an A- Terran on ICCup who kindly agreed to train me. They taught me 3-hatch muta ZvT and checked my games every day and got on my ass if I didn't play 10 games a day. I mean literally shouted at me if I didn't play 10. At the time I hated it, but looking back I am super thankful they did it.
It was the motivation I needed. They teased out the competitive nature within me. Since then I've been involved with LAN culture, online tournaments, and active SC2 training.
FYI I do watch streams (for study and entertainment). Unless I have work in the morning, I watch GSL religiously. I follow random TL posts, interact with the community, and have fun. However, I'm of the opinion that too much stream-watching, theorycrafting, etc. can be psychologically detrimental to the improvement of casual players. Pros make it look wonderfully easy, and when we can't reproduce that in our own games it frustrates us into not playing.
On the flipside, once you're more established in game mechanics and understanding I feel you can appreciate and learn from pro-play even more.
Again, I have to emphasize this blog post was not intended to hurt or offend anyone. My practice of hypothetically calling casual players "bitches" and "washed up old men" was all in good fun and tough love exercise. I hope you recognize that this is the proper forum to, as one critic said, project my own goals and ideals on the community. And I thank you for listening.
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When builds and counters and such aren't fleshed out welI, such as in the beta, early after the release, or after big patches, spending the time on the forums, on streams, and working on knowledge of the new mechanics is invaluable. What upgrades will allow you to reduce the number of hits it takes to kill zerglings? How many marines can a void ray take on by itself uncharged? Charged? Can SCVs repair vehicles inside a dropship? Is it optimal to build extra command centers just for mules/scv production? If you make a lot of unit (x), what other units can you make to supplement that army? This is stuff that you can learn WAAAAY faster through streams, forums, etc. rather than through mass laddering.
For those purposes, I think every aspiring pro-gamer should spend all the time they can on the forums figuring this stuff out - it allows you to learn more from your actual ladder games, and make proper corrections/improvements to your builds. In fact, I spent a whole bunch of time on forums/theory-crafting because by developing and discussing strategies and tactics, you really understand why they work, what the weaknesses are, what the purpose is, etc. better than if you just copied it from an online forum and then played it over and over on the ladder. I have probably only played 200 ladder games of SC2 since the beta, yet I have 2 accounts in masters ,one as a zerg and one as a protoss. This should be evidence that at least in some circumstances, mass games are not more productive than quality, well-thought-out games that are supplemented by forum discussions and streams. (although i never really watched the TL live-streams, far better to download a white-ra replay pack or something)
For mechanics, you're right you definitely have to practice a bunch. You have to be able to implement what you think of. And now that so many solid builds are available online, you can probably just take the academic shortcut and copy someone else's build and just work on your mechanics. But at the end of the day, you don't need particularly good mechanics to do really well in SC2. My mechanics are terrible (APM at the end of my games is usually 70 or 80 if it lasts into the late game, between 60-70 if it ends in the first 15 minutes), and that is apparently good enough for masters if you put some thought and preparation into how you play.
If we break it down into two styles, there is the mechanics style learned from spending time mass-laddering, and there is the academic style (nestea style?) which is learned from watching replays, talking on forums, watching GSL, MLG, and theory-crafting. You need some combination of both styles to succeed. SC:BW certainly lends itself well to the mechanics style: the mechanics skill-cap is so high that if you can raise your apm to 150+, it doesn't really matter how thoughtful your 60apm opponent is. But the same does not hold true in SC2. A high APM certainly helps, but you can do a lot more with a lower apm than you could in BW, and for that reason I think a larger emphasis should be placed on the academic side of SC2 training than what you experienced in your BW laddering experience.
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On June 14 2011 02:01 Gnial wrote:
I have probably only played 200 ladder games of SC2 since the beta, yet I have 2 accounts in masters ,one as a zerg and one as a protoss. This should be evidence that at least in some circumstances, mass games are not more productive than quality, well-thought-out games that are supplemented by forum discussions and streams.
Thanks for your input.
You do need both brains and braun, but shouldn't actual playing come first? Playing the game, even mass-gaming, doesn't mean you're only working on mechanics. You can flesh out strategies on your own too.
Forum discussions, streams, and replays are good supplements. However, there's no denying people rely on them too much, or use them as a justification for lack of gametime. Look at the number of strategy-question threads started by bronze-platinum users - a lot of them aren't legitimate concerns because often the heart of the problem is their macro is awful.
Also, I have ~130 APM and I'm high diamond. Do you have 70 APM as a Masters zerg? If so, teach me!
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On June 14 2011 04:11 Nairul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2011 02:01 Gnial wrote:
I have probably only played 200 ladder games of SC2 since the beta, yet I have 2 accounts in masters ,one as a zerg and one as a protoss. This should be evidence that at least in some circumstances, mass games are not more productive than quality, well-thought-out games that are supplemented by forum discussions and streams. Thanks for your input. You do need both brains and braun, but shouldn't actual playing come first? Playing the game, even mass-gaming, doesn't mean you're only working on mechanics. You can flesh out strategies on your own too. Forum discussions, streams, and replays are good supplements. However, there's no denying people rely on them too much, or use them as a justification for lack of gametime. Look at the number of strategy-question threads started by bronze-platinum users - a lot of them aren't legitimate concerns because often the heart of the problem is their macro is awful. Also, I have ~130 APM and I'm high diamond. Do you have 70 APM as a Masters zerg? If so, teach me!
Hehe my APM figures are for protoss, I'm not actually sure if my APM goes up for zerg - I would assume it would be in the same ballpark, but a little higher. Toss definitely requires less APM.
I was a T and P player for a while and was really, really familiar with T and P timings, and being able to identify what was coming in advance. I'm not sure whether the most time efficient way to learn those timings as a Z player is to play T/P and study T/P build orders, or whether you should just learn it from the Z perspective through playing games.
You're right, you definitely need to play some ladder games to flesh out your strategies, and to learn about counters you may not have thought of. I mean, just to get comfortable with the timings you need to play the builds a few times.
I think the way I read your suggestion, you are probably leaning a little too far towards the "playing lots of ladder games" side just based on your history playing starcraft and your mechanics related to your ladder rank. On the flip side, you have highlighted how it is definitely possible to lean too far to the academic side as well, and watching videos certainly doesn't help people get over playing anxiety. Ideally, you want to optimize your time spent doing both so that your improvement / time is maximized. Some people like to combine both styles, watching the replay after each loss. I really don't like doing that. I prefer to dedicate an hour or two, after dinner or whenever, to go over replays that something unexpected happened, and go over pro replays, all in one big go.
Whatever style you feel works the best, and however you structure it, at the end of the day you have to dedicate a lot of time to it no matter which method you use.
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EPT
