• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:15
CEST 06:15
KST 13:15
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon8[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway13
Community News
SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia5Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues23LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments3Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw?39Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy What happened to Singapore/Brazil servers? SC4ALL: A North American StarCraft LAN Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon
Tourneys
SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series LANified! 37: Groundswell, BYOC LAN, Nov 28-30 2025 LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast
Brood War
General
ASL20 General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ alas... i aint gon' lie to u bruh... BW General Discussion [ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group B Small VOD Thread 2.0 [ASL20] Ro16 Group A [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Borderlands 3 Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread The PlayStation 5 General RTS Discussion Thread Iron Harvest: 1920+
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1362 users

Upgrading Mech v Bio-thoughts.

Blogs > bobwhiz
Post a Reply
bobwhiz
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States725 Posts
June 07 2011 15:25 GMT
#1
I've heard it said that if you're going for bio-mech- bio upgrades should come first. The fact that bio units are easily massable and replaceable and maneuvreable means that their upgrades are more important.

In TvT- your marines are the primary damage dealers and takers, and the siege tanks just do splash, generallly weakening, but cannot simply destroy tanks on the open plane.

In TvP- your bio with stim is crucial to destroying gateway units. Air upgrades are more important here if your opponent is going for Colossi.

In TvZ- mutas, lings, banelings, roaches, corrupters, broodlords(to an extent), and even ultras are dealt with in part by your bio army. They are compositionally necessary. Tanks are only useful against ling/bling/roach practically.

So let's focus on TvZ. Is rushing to 3-3 if you know your opponent is playing a macro game the *best* way to go? Or is pressuring pre-upgrade the way to go?

The moment the upgrade hits- you love it, but until then there is an uneasy feeling that one's supply is TOO low.

Not sure. Just thinking about it. Maybe someone has done the math?

Signatures are simply a cover for having no personality. -Kiante
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
June 07 2011 15:30 GMT
#2
1) 1-0 mech upgrade is crucial in any TvZ to counteract any possible armor upgrades on lings/blings.

2) Turtling till 3-3 finishes is not the way to play TvZ. You'll get overrun. By the time 3/3 finishes, any decent zerg will be up 2-3 bases on you and is likely to be sitting on hive tech also. Key to TvZ is pressuring early and pressuring often.

I don't disagree on the importance of infantry upgrades in TvZ, but I'm not entirely clear what it is you're looking for.
bobwhiz
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States725 Posts
June 07 2011 15:37 GMT
#3
I guess the question is-

Does the massability of tier 1 units make their upgrades more essential than mech upgrades?

You've given a partial 'no' as an answer. I'm wondering what is generally true. Your answer is helpful though.
Signatures are simply a cover for having no personality. -Kiante
Shifft
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1085 Posts
June 07 2011 15:48 GMT
#4
Yes, and that's why just about every Terran upgrades bio first.
=O
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
June 07 2011 15:59 GMT
#5
On June 08 2011 00:37 bobwhiz wrote:
I guess the question is-

Does the massability of tier 1 units make their upgrades more essential than mech upgrades?

You've given a partial 'no' as an answer. I'm wondering what is generally true. Your answer is helpful though.


The answer to that question depends both on the style you are playing and the style your opponent is playing. To stick with TvZ as an example:

- In a 'standard' game, where you go marine/tank midgame and your opponent goes muta/ling/bling, 1-0 mech is the most relevant in the long term (excluding hitting certain timings), because it counteracts all zerg ground armor upgrades. After that (in my opinion) infantry upgrades have a bigger impact on the game, due to the fact that if you keep upgrading both weapons and armor, marines keep getting stronger and stronger vs mutas because there's no zergs that upgrade both weapons and armor on air, not to mention bounce damage gets reduced even if the zerg stays on par with his upgrades.

(This doesn't mean you shouldn't research inf upgrades before mech upgrades or whatever, just saying that in relative importance, mech 1-0 has the biggest impact on the game).

- When facing roach/bling/ling tho, I'd say all mech upgrades have a bigger impact on the game, because tanks 'outscale' your opponents upgrades. For example: a 3/3 marine vs a 3/3 roach deals equal damage to a 0/0 marines vs a 0/0 roach, while a 3/3 tank vs a 3/3 roach deals 12 damage more then a 0/0 tank vs a 0/0 roach. I'd also say that in this matchup, armor on infantry could become more useful then weapon upgrades, due to the fact that you're more or less delaying roaches with marines (imperfect counter in the first place), while your tanks deal the real damage to them.

Then again, this is nothing but theorycraft, and getting 1 upgrade doesn't exclude getting the others.

Does this help in any way? ;p
bobwhiz
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States725 Posts
June 07 2011 17:12 GMT
#6
Definitely. That's some good theory. =)
Signatures are simply a cover for having no personality. -Kiante
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
June 07 2011 18:02 GMT
#7
On June 08 2011 00:59 Derez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 08 2011 00:37 bobwhiz wrote:
I guess the question is-

Does the massability of tier 1 units make their upgrades more essential than mech upgrades?

You've given a partial 'no' as an answer. I'm wondering what is generally true. Your answer is helpful though.


The answer to that question depends both on the style you are playing and the style your opponent is playing. To stick with TvZ as an example:

- In a 'standard' game, where you go marine/tank midgame and your opponent goes muta/ling/bling, 1-0 mech is the most relevant in the long term (excluding hitting certain timings), because it counteracts all zerg ground armor upgrades. After that (in my opinion) infantry upgrades have a bigger impact on the game, due to the fact that if you keep upgrading both weapons and armor, marines keep getting stronger and stronger vs mutas because there's no zergs that upgrade both weapons and armor on air, not to mention bounce damage gets reduced even if the zerg stays on par with his upgrades.

(This doesn't mean you shouldn't research inf upgrades before mech upgrades or whatever, just saying that in relative importance, mech 1-0 has the biggest impact on the game).

- When facing roach/bling/ling tho, I'd say all mech upgrades have a bigger impact on the game, because tanks 'outscale' your opponents upgrades. For example: a 3/3 marine vs a 3/3 roach deals equal damage to a 0/0 marines vs a 0/0 roach, while a 3/3 tank vs a 3/3 roach deals 12 damage more then a 0/0 tank vs a 0/0 roach. I'd also say that in this matchup, armor on infantry could become more useful then weapon upgrades, due to the fact that you're more or less delaying roaches with marines (imperfect counter in the first place), while your tanks deal the real damage to them.

Then again, this is nothing but theorycraft, and getting 1 upgrade doesn't exclude getting the others.

Does this help in any way? ;p


the main point of what you are saying is true but roaches gain 2 damage per upgrade not 1.

the reason roaches suck against marines late game is that 4 marines can shoot at every 1 roach due to the range advantage
kNightLite
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States408 Posts
June 07 2011 19:01 GMT
#8
Well the only "critical upgrades" I can think of are in ZvT. You definitely want +1 mech attack to one-shot zerglings with tanks, and then a fast +2 mech attack to two-shot mutas with thors.

Other than that I think it depends upon relative army composition. If you have rapid fire units then you want attack, because you'll be adding more total damage via +attack than subtracting damage via +armor. But if you have slow fire units then you want armor, because you'll be subtracting more total damage with your armor than you will be adding via +attack.

It just so happens that because stimmed M&M is good in all three matchups that you're usually best off improving bio attack before any other upgrades..
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 45m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 147
ProTech69
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 156
Noble 95
Shine 84
NaDa 35
sSak 27
Icarus 11
Dota 2
monkeys_forever736
NeuroSwarm53
League of Legends
JimRising 791
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K203
Coldzera 157
Other Games
summit1g10085
C9.Mang0279
XaKoH 193
ViBE182
hungrybox179
fpsfer 2
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2132
BasetradeTV61
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 28
• Sammyuel 26
• Kozan
• Migwel
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• Diggity1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush1534
• Lourlo862
• Stunt377
Other Games
• Scarra795
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
5h 45m
Classic vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs Maru
Online Event
7h 45m
Kung Fu Cup
7h 45m
BSL Team Wars
14h 45m
RSL Revival
1d 5h
Maestros of the Game
1d 9h
ShoWTimE vs Classic
Clem vs herO
Serral vs Bunny
Reynor vs Zoun
Cosmonarchy
1d 11h
Bonyth vs Dewalt
[BSL 2025] Weekly
1d 13h
RSL Revival
2 days
Maestros of the Game
2 days
[ Show More ]
BSL Team Wars
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Snow vs Sharp
Jaedong vs Mini
Wardi Open
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Light vs Speed
Larva vs Soma
LiuLi Cup
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Copa Latinoamericana 4
SEL Season 2 Championship
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL Polish World Championship 2025
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
EC S1
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.