• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 22:48
CET 04:48
KST 12:48
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book15Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational14
Community News
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16)4Weekly Cups (Feb 2-8): Classic, Solar, MaxPax win2Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker7PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar)11Weekly Cups (Jan 26-Feb 1): herO, Clem, ByuN, Classic win2
StarCraft 2
General
Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker
Tourneys
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) RSL Season 4 announced for March-April WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
Custom Maps
Modalert 200 for Focus and Alertness Map Editor closed ? [A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 512 Overclocked The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 511 Temple of Rebirth Mutation # 510 Safety Violation
Brood War
General
[ASL21] Potential Map Candidates BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion StarCraft player reflex TE scores Gypsy to Korea
Tourneys
Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 1 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Zealot bombing is no longer popular? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta
Other Games
General Games
Diablo 2 thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Ask and answer stupid questions here! Sex and weight loss YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Play, Watch, Drink: Esports …
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2170 users

Upgrading Mech v Bio-thoughts.

Blogs > bobwhiz
Post a Reply
bobwhiz
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States725 Posts
June 07 2011 15:25 GMT
#1
I've heard it said that if you're going for bio-mech- bio upgrades should come first. The fact that bio units are easily massable and replaceable and maneuvreable means that their upgrades are more important.

In TvT- your marines are the primary damage dealers and takers, and the siege tanks just do splash, generallly weakening, but cannot simply destroy tanks on the open plane.

In TvP- your bio with stim is crucial to destroying gateway units. Air upgrades are more important here if your opponent is going for Colossi.

In TvZ- mutas, lings, banelings, roaches, corrupters, broodlords(to an extent), and even ultras are dealt with in part by your bio army. They are compositionally necessary. Tanks are only useful against ling/bling/roach practically.

So let's focus on TvZ. Is rushing to 3-3 if you know your opponent is playing a macro game the *best* way to go? Or is pressuring pre-upgrade the way to go?

The moment the upgrade hits- you love it, but until then there is an uneasy feeling that one's supply is TOO low.

Not sure. Just thinking about it. Maybe someone has done the math?

Signatures are simply a cover for having no personality. -Kiante
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
June 07 2011 15:30 GMT
#2
1) 1-0 mech upgrade is crucial in any TvZ to counteract any possible armor upgrades on lings/blings.

2) Turtling till 3-3 finishes is not the way to play TvZ. You'll get overrun. By the time 3/3 finishes, any decent zerg will be up 2-3 bases on you and is likely to be sitting on hive tech also. Key to TvZ is pressuring early and pressuring often.

I don't disagree on the importance of infantry upgrades in TvZ, but I'm not entirely clear what it is you're looking for.
bobwhiz
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States725 Posts
June 07 2011 15:37 GMT
#3
I guess the question is-

Does the massability of tier 1 units make their upgrades more essential than mech upgrades?

You've given a partial 'no' as an answer. I'm wondering what is generally true. Your answer is helpful though.
Signatures are simply a cover for having no personality. -Kiante
Shifft
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1085 Posts
June 07 2011 15:48 GMT
#4
Yes, and that's why just about every Terran upgrades bio first.
=O
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
June 07 2011 15:59 GMT
#5
On June 08 2011 00:37 bobwhiz wrote:
I guess the question is-

Does the massability of tier 1 units make their upgrades more essential than mech upgrades?

You've given a partial 'no' as an answer. I'm wondering what is generally true. Your answer is helpful though.


The answer to that question depends both on the style you are playing and the style your opponent is playing. To stick with TvZ as an example:

- In a 'standard' game, where you go marine/tank midgame and your opponent goes muta/ling/bling, 1-0 mech is the most relevant in the long term (excluding hitting certain timings), because it counteracts all zerg ground armor upgrades. After that (in my opinion) infantry upgrades have a bigger impact on the game, due to the fact that if you keep upgrading both weapons and armor, marines keep getting stronger and stronger vs mutas because there's no zergs that upgrade both weapons and armor on air, not to mention bounce damage gets reduced even if the zerg stays on par with his upgrades.

(This doesn't mean you shouldn't research inf upgrades before mech upgrades or whatever, just saying that in relative importance, mech 1-0 has the biggest impact on the game).

- When facing roach/bling/ling tho, I'd say all mech upgrades have a bigger impact on the game, because tanks 'outscale' your opponents upgrades. For example: a 3/3 marine vs a 3/3 roach deals equal damage to a 0/0 marines vs a 0/0 roach, while a 3/3 tank vs a 3/3 roach deals 12 damage more then a 0/0 tank vs a 0/0 roach. I'd also say that in this matchup, armor on infantry could become more useful then weapon upgrades, due to the fact that you're more or less delaying roaches with marines (imperfect counter in the first place), while your tanks deal the real damage to them.

Then again, this is nothing but theorycraft, and getting 1 upgrade doesn't exclude getting the others.

Does this help in any way? ;p
bobwhiz
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States725 Posts
June 07 2011 17:12 GMT
#6
Definitely. That's some good theory. =)
Signatures are simply a cover for having no personality. -Kiante
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
June 07 2011 18:02 GMT
#7
On June 08 2011 00:59 Derez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 08 2011 00:37 bobwhiz wrote:
I guess the question is-

Does the massability of tier 1 units make their upgrades more essential than mech upgrades?

You've given a partial 'no' as an answer. I'm wondering what is generally true. Your answer is helpful though.


The answer to that question depends both on the style you are playing and the style your opponent is playing. To stick with TvZ as an example:

- In a 'standard' game, where you go marine/tank midgame and your opponent goes muta/ling/bling, 1-0 mech is the most relevant in the long term (excluding hitting certain timings), because it counteracts all zerg ground armor upgrades. After that (in my opinion) infantry upgrades have a bigger impact on the game, due to the fact that if you keep upgrading both weapons and armor, marines keep getting stronger and stronger vs mutas because there's no zergs that upgrade both weapons and armor on air, not to mention bounce damage gets reduced even if the zerg stays on par with his upgrades.

(This doesn't mean you shouldn't research inf upgrades before mech upgrades or whatever, just saying that in relative importance, mech 1-0 has the biggest impact on the game).

- When facing roach/bling/ling tho, I'd say all mech upgrades have a bigger impact on the game, because tanks 'outscale' your opponents upgrades. For example: a 3/3 marine vs a 3/3 roach deals equal damage to a 0/0 marines vs a 0/0 roach, while a 3/3 tank vs a 3/3 roach deals 12 damage more then a 0/0 tank vs a 0/0 roach. I'd also say that in this matchup, armor on infantry could become more useful then weapon upgrades, due to the fact that you're more or less delaying roaches with marines (imperfect counter in the first place), while your tanks deal the real damage to them.

Then again, this is nothing but theorycraft, and getting 1 upgrade doesn't exclude getting the others.

Does this help in any way? ;p


the main point of what you are saying is true but roaches gain 2 damage per upgrade not 1.

the reason roaches suck against marines late game is that 4 marines can shoot at every 1 roach due to the range advantage
kNightLite
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States408 Posts
June 07 2011 19:01 GMT
#8
Well the only "critical upgrades" I can think of are in ZvT. You definitely want +1 mech attack to one-shot zerglings with tanks, and then a fast +2 mech attack to two-shot mutas with thors.

Other than that I think it depends upon relative army composition. If you have rapid fire units then you want attack, because you'll be adding more total damage via +attack than subtracting damage via +armor. But if you have slow fire units then you want armor, because you'll be subtracting more total damage with your armor than you will be adding via +attack.

It just so happens that because stimmed M&M is good in all three matchups that you're usually best off improving bio attack before any other upgrades..
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
HomeStory Cup 28 - Group A
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 209
NeuroSwarm 123
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 2522
Leta 73
GoRush 60
Noble 38
NaDa 27
Icarus 8
League of Legends
JimRising 826
C9.Mang0404
Counter-Strike
tarik_tv4833
Coldzera 955
taco 924
m0e_tv460
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox465
Mew2King102
Other Games
summit1g6129
Maynarde107
ViBE73
PiLiPiLi13
minikerr6
Liquid`Ken4
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1371
BasetradeTV58
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 79
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift4525
• Stunt516
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
6h 12m
KCM Race Survival
6h 12m
LiuLi Cup
7h 12m
Scarlett vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs herO
Replay Cast
20h 12m
Online Event
1d 6h
LiuLi Cup
1d 7h
Serral vs Zoun
Cure vs Classic
Big Brain Bouts
1d 13h
Serral vs TBD
RSL Revival
1d 23h
RSL Revival
2 days
LiuLi Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
LiuLi Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
LiuLi Cup
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
OSC
4 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-02-10
Rongyi Cup S3
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W8
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
WardiTV Winter 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
FISSURE Playground #3
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.