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Upgrading Mech v Bio-thoughts.

Blogs > bobwhiz
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bobwhiz
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States725 Posts
June 07 2011 15:25 GMT
#1
I've heard it said that if you're going for bio-mech- bio upgrades should come first. The fact that bio units are easily massable and replaceable and maneuvreable means that their upgrades are more important.

In TvT- your marines are the primary damage dealers and takers, and the siege tanks just do splash, generallly weakening, but cannot simply destroy tanks on the open plane.

In TvP- your bio with stim is crucial to destroying gateway units. Air upgrades are more important here if your opponent is going for Colossi.

In TvZ- mutas, lings, banelings, roaches, corrupters, broodlords(to an extent), and even ultras are dealt with in part by your bio army. They are compositionally necessary. Tanks are only useful against ling/bling/roach practically.

So let's focus on TvZ. Is rushing to 3-3 if you know your opponent is playing a macro game the *best* way to go? Or is pressuring pre-upgrade the way to go?

The moment the upgrade hits- you love it, but until then there is an uneasy feeling that one's supply is TOO low.

Not sure. Just thinking about it. Maybe someone has done the math?

Signatures are simply a cover for having no personality. -Kiante
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
June 07 2011 15:30 GMT
#2
1) 1-0 mech upgrade is crucial in any TvZ to counteract any possible armor upgrades on lings/blings.

2) Turtling till 3-3 finishes is not the way to play TvZ. You'll get overrun. By the time 3/3 finishes, any decent zerg will be up 2-3 bases on you and is likely to be sitting on hive tech also. Key to TvZ is pressuring early and pressuring often.

I don't disagree on the importance of infantry upgrades in TvZ, but I'm not entirely clear what it is you're looking for.
bobwhiz
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States725 Posts
June 07 2011 15:37 GMT
#3
I guess the question is-

Does the massability of tier 1 units make their upgrades more essential than mech upgrades?

You've given a partial 'no' as an answer. I'm wondering what is generally true. Your answer is helpful though.
Signatures are simply a cover for having no personality. -Kiante
Shifft
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1085 Posts
June 07 2011 15:48 GMT
#4
Yes, and that's why just about every Terran upgrades bio first.
=O
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
June 07 2011 15:59 GMT
#5
On June 08 2011 00:37 bobwhiz wrote:
I guess the question is-

Does the massability of tier 1 units make their upgrades more essential than mech upgrades?

You've given a partial 'no' as an answer. I'm wondering what is generally true. Your answer is helpful though.


The answer to that question depends both on the style you are playing and the style your opponent is playing. To stick with TvZ as an example:

- In a 'standard' game, where you go marine/tank midgame and your opponent goes muta/ling/bling, 1-0 mech is the most relevant in the long term (excluding hitting certain timings), because it counteracts all zerg ground armor upgrades. After that (in my opinion) infantry upgrades have a bigger impact on the game, due to the fact that if you keep upgrading both weapons and armor, marines keep getting stronger and stronger vs mutas because there's no zergs that upgrade both weapons and armor on air, not to mention bounce damage gets reduced even if the zerg stays on par with his upgrades.

(This doesn't mean you shouldn't research inf upgrades before mech upgrades or whatever, just saying that in relative importance, mech 1-0 has the biggest impact on the game).

- When facing roach/bling/ling tho, I'd say all mech upgrades have a bigger impact on the game, because tanks 'outscale' your opponents upgrades. For example: a 3/3 marine vs a 3/3 roach deals equal damage to a 0/0 marines vs a 0/0 roach, while a 3/3 tank vs a 3/3 roach deals 12 damage more then a 0/0 tank vs a 0/0 roach. I'd also say that in this matchup, armor on infantry could become more useful then weapon upgrades, due to the fact that you're more or less delaying roaches with marines (imperfect counter in the first place), while your tanks deal the real damage to them.

Then again, this is nothing but theorycraft, and getting 1 upgrade doesn't exclude getting the others.

Does this help in any way? ;p
bobwhiz
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States725 Posts
June 07 2011 17:12 GMT
#6
Definitely. That's some good theory. =)
Signatures are simply a cover for having no personality. -Kiante
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
June 07 2011 18:02 GMT
#7
On June 08 2011 00:59 Derez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 08 2011 00:37 bobwhiz wrote:
I guess the question is-

Does the massability of tier 1 units make their upgrades more essential than mech upgrades?

You've given a partial 'no' as an answer. I'm wondering what is generally true. Your answer is helpful though.


The answer to that question depends both on the style you are playing and the style your opponent is playing. To stick with TvZ as an example:

- In a 'standard' game, where you go marine/tank midgame and your opponent goes muta/ling/bling, 1-0 mech is the most relevant in the long term (excluding hitting certain timings), because it counteracts all zerg ground armor upgrades. After that (in my opinion) infantry upgrades have a bigger impact on the game, due to the fact that if you keep upgrading both weapons and armor, marines keep getting stronger and stronger vs mutas because there's no zergs that upgrade both weapons and armor on air, not to mention bounce damage gets reduced even if the zerg stays on par with his upgrades.

(This doesn't mean you shouldn't research inf upgrades before mech upgrades or whatever, just saying that in relative importance, mech 1-0 has the biggest impact on the game).

- When facing roach/bling/ling tho, I'd say all mech upgrades have a bigger impact on the game, because tanks 'outscale' your opponents upgrades. For example: a 3/3 marine vs a 3/3 roach deals equal damage to a 0/0 marines vs a 0/0 roach, while a 3/3 tank vs a 3/3 roach deals 12 damage more then a 0/0 tank vs a 0/0 roach. I'd also say that in this matchup, armor on infantry could become more useful then weapon upgrades, due to the fact that you're more or less delaying roaches with marines (imperfect counter in the first place), while your tanks deal the real damage to them.

Then again, this is nothing but theorycraft, and getting 1 upgrade doesn't exclude getting the others.

Does this help in any way? ;p


the main point of what you are saying is true but roaches gain 2 damage per upgrade not 1.

the reason roaches suck against marines late game is that 4 marines can shoot at every 1 roach due to the range advantage
kNightLite
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States408 Posts
June 07 2011 19:01 GMT
#8
Well the only "critical upgrades" I can think of are in ZvT. You definitely want +1 mech attack to one-shot zerglings with tanks, and then a fast +2 mech attack to two-shot mutas with thors.

Other than that I think it depends upon relative army composition. If you have rapid fire units then you want attack, because you'll be adding more total damage via +attack than subtracting damage via +armor. But if you have slow fire units then you want armor, because you'll be subtracting more total damage with your armor than you will be adding via +attack.

It just so happens that because stimmed M&M is good in all three matchups that you're usually best off improving bio attack before any other upgrades..
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