• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 17:04
CET 23:04
KST 07:04
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4) BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced
Tourneys
RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! Tenacious Turtle Tussle 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament StarCraft2.fi 15th Anniversary Cup
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress
Brood War
General
How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [BSL21] RO8 Bracket & Prediction Contest BW General Discussion FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals [BSL21] RO8 - Day 2 - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO8 - Day 1 - Saturday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Fighting Spirit mining rates Current Meta
Other Games
General Games
Dawn of War IV Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
How Sleep Deprivation Affect…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1524 users

Upgrading Mech v Bio-thoughts.

Blogs > bobwhiz
Post a Reply
bobwhiz
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States725 Posts
June 07 2011 15:25 GMT
#1
I've heard it said that if you're going for bio-mech- bio upgrades should come first. The fact that bio units are easily massable and replaceable and maneuvreable means that their upgrades are more important.

In TvT- your marines are the primary damage dealers and takers, and the siege tanks just do splash, generallly weakening, but cannot simply destroy tanks on the open plane.

In TvP- your bio with stim is crucial to destroying gateway units. Air upgrades are more important here if your opponent is going for Colossi.

In TvZ- mutas, lings, banelings, roaches, corrupters, broodlords(to an extent), and even ultras are dealt with in part by your bio army. They are compositionally necessary. Tanks are only useful against ling/bling/roach practically.

So let's focus on TvZ. Is rushing to 3-3 if you know your opponent is playing a macro game the *best* way to go? Or is pressuring pre-upgrade the way to go?

The moment the upgrade hits- you love it, but until then there is an uneasy feeling that one's supply is TOO low.

Not sure. Just thinking about it. Maybe someone has done the math?

Signatures are simply a cover for having no personality. -Kiante
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
June 07 2011 15:30 GMT
#2
1) 1-0 mech upgrade is crucial in any TvZ to counteract any possible armor upgrades on lings/blings.

2) Turtling till 3-3 finishes is not the way to play TvZ. You'll get overrun. By the time 3/3 finishes, any decent zerg will be up 2-3 bases on you and is likely to be sitting on hive tech also. Key to TvZ is pressuring early and pressuring often.

I don't disagree on the importance of infantry upgrades in TvZ, but I'm not entirely clear what it is you're looking for.
bobwhiz
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States725 Posts
June 07 2011 15:37 GMT
#3
I guess the question is-

Does the massability of tier 1 units make their upgrades more essential than mech upgrades?

You've given a partial 'no' as an answer. I'm wondering what is generally true. Your answer is helpful though.
Signatures are simply a cover for having no personality. -Kiante
Shifft
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1085 Posts
June 07 2011 15:48 GMT
#4
Yes, and that's why just about every Terran upgrades bio first.
=O
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
June 07 2011 15:59 GMT
#5
On June 08 2011 00:37 bobwhiz wrote:
I guess the question is-

Does the massability of tier 1 units make their upgrades more essential than mech upgrades?

You've given a partial 'no' as an answer. I'm wondering what is generally true. Your answer is helpful though.


The answer to that question depends both on the style you are playing and the style your opponent is playing. To stick with TvZ as an example:

- In a 'standard' game, where you go marine/tank midgame and your opponent goes muta/ling/bling, 1-0 mech is the most relevant in the long term (excluding hitting certain timings), because it counteracts all zerg ground armor upgrades. After that (in my opinion) infantry upgrades have a bigger impact on the game, due to the fact that if you keep upgrading both weapons and armor, marines keep getting stronger and stronger vs mutas because there's no zergs that upgrade both weapons and armor on air, not to mention bounce damage gets reduced even if the zerg stays on par with his upgrades.

(This doesn't mean you shouldn't research inf upgrades before mech upgrades or whatever, just saying that in relative importance, mech 1-0 has the biggest impact on the game).

- When facing roach/bling/ling tho, I'd say all mech upgrades have a bigger impact on the game, because tanks 'outscale' your opponents upgrades. For example: a 3/3 marine vs a 3/3 roach deals equal damage to a 0/0 marines vs a 0/0 roach, while a 3/3 tank vs a 3/3 roach deals 12 damage more then a 0/0 tank vs a 0/0 roach. I'd also say that in this matchup, armor on infantry could become more useful then weapon upgrades, due to the fact that you're more or less delaying roaches with marines (imperfect counter in the first place), while your tanks deal the real damage to them.

Then again, this is nothing but theorycraft, and getting 1 upgrade doesn't exclude getting the others.

Does this help in any way? ;p
bobwhiz
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States725 Posts
June 07 2011 17:12 GMT
#6
Definitely. That's some good theory. =)
Signatures are simply a cover for having no personality. -Kiante
turdburgler
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
England6749 Posts
June 07 2011 18:02 GMT
#7
On June 08 2011 00:59 Derez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 08 2011 00:37 bobwhiz wrote:
I guess the question is-

Does the massability of tier 1 units make their upgrades more essential than mech upgrades?

You've given a partial 'no' as an answer. I'm wondering what is generally true. Your answer is helpful though.


The answer to that question depends both on the style you are playing and the style your opponent is playing. To stick with TvZ as an example:

- In a 'standard' game, where you go marine/tank midgame and your opponent goes muta/ling/bling, 1-0 mech is the most relevant in the long term (excluding hitting certain timings), because it counteracts all zerg ground armor upgrades. After that (in my opinion) infantry upgrades have a bigger impact on the game, due to the fact that if you keep upgrading both weapons and armor, marines keep getting stronger and stronger vs mutas because there's no zergs that upgrade both weapons and armor on air, not to mention bounce damage gets reduced even if the zerg stays on par with his upgrades.

(This doesn't mean you shouldn't research inf upgrades before mech upgrades or whatever, just saying that in relative importance, mech 1-0 has the biggest impact on the game).

- When facing roach/bling/ling tho, I'd say all mech upgrades have a bigger impact on the game, because tanks 'outscale' your opponents upgrades. For example: a 3/3 marine vs a 3/3 roach deals equal damage to a 0/0 marines vs a 0/0 roach, while a 3/3 tank vs a 3/3 roach deals 12 damage more then a 0/0 tank vs a 0/0 roach. I'd also say that in this matchup, armor on infantry could become more useful then weapon upgrades, due to the fact that you're more or less delaying roaches with marines (imperfect counter in the first place), while your tanks deal the real damage to them.

Then again, this is nothing but theorycraft, and getting 1 upgrade doesn't exclude getting the others.

Does this help in any way? ;p


the main point of what you are saying is true but roaches gain 2 damage per upgrade not 1.

the reason roaches suck against marines late game is that 4 marines can shoot at every 1 roach due to the range advantage
kNightLite
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States408 Posts
June 07 2011 19:01 GMT
#8
Well the only "critical upgrades" I can think of are in ZvT. You definitely want +1 mech attack to one-shot zerglings with tanks, and then a fast +2 mech attack to two-shot mutas with thors.

Other than that I think it depends upon relative army composition. If you have rapid fire units then you want attack, because you'll be adding more total damage via +attack than subtracting damage via +armor. But if you have slow fire units then you want armor, because you'll be subtracting more total damage with your armor than you will be adding via +attack.

It just so happens that because stimmed M&M is good in all three matchups that you're usually best off improving bio attack before any other upgrades..
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The PiG Daily
21:30
Best Games of SC
Maru vs Reynor
TBD vs MaxPax
Maru vs SHIN
MaxPax vs Maru
LiquipediaDiscussion
BSL 21
20:00
RO8 - Day 2
Tech vs Cross
Bonyth vs eOnzErG
ZZZero.O395
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft299
IndyStarCraft 205
JuggernautJason107
UpATreeSC 67
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 15204
Calm 2315
Shuttle 483
ZZZero.O 395
Mini 335
EffOrt 185
Dewaltoss 109
ggaemo 57
NaDa 4
Dota 2
Gorgc6303
420jenkins281
LuMiX1
League of Legends
C9.Mang052
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor500
Liquid`Hasu453
Other Games
Grubby2856
B2W.Neo801
ArmadaUGS171
hungrybox168
Fuzer 85
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1568
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• musti20045 15
• Adnapsc2 11
• Dystopia_ 3
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV569
League of Legends
• Doublelift179
Other Games
• imaqtpie2683
• Shiphtur613
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
10h 56m
Wardi Open
13h 56m
Monday Night Weeklies
18h 56m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 11h
OSC
2 days
YoungYakov vs Mixu
ForJumy vs TBD
Percival vs TBD
Shameless vs TBD
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
OSC
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
SC Evo League
5 days
[ Show More ]
BSL 21
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
BSL 21
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Revival: Season 3
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.