Throughout the history of SC2 there has been a ton of excitement about players from other games transferring over. Mostly this has been focused on the two main competitive RTS's, WC3 and SCBW. Along with this excitement comes a healthy debate about which players will do well and which players won't but lately there seems to be a particularly unilateral talk about Flash and Jaedong. It seems like most of the public figures just seem to accept this even some going to the level of saying that within TWO WEEKS they would be dominating the scene (only player I can remember saying this exactly was Idra but I am pretty sure there are others).
This just seems ridiculous to me and a huge statement on what community figures think about the state of SC2 competition. If you really think that within two weeks anyone can be better than the current pros then how can you with a straight face say that SC2 competition is legitimate. Why should anyone care about current SC2 competition if the real talent is elsewhere? I think intrigue summarized this point of view best in his article The Elephant in the Room. The assumption that Flash and Jaedong will be dominant with little effort if true or at least believed ruins the illusion of SC2 as real competition.
Thankfully this conclusion can be easily avoided and the space-time continuum saved. It has been said a million times before and I will say it again, SC2 is a different game. Incoming whine about similarities detected! Nuke avoided by summarizing the conclusion of every argument ever on this subject; there are certain skills that transfer over. Obvious, yes but I would rather not have a million posts saying 'But the so similar dudez, you are dumb!'. Yes some skills will transfer over but I feel like we need a little refresher on not assuming past experience means obvious success. Grubby.
Why do all these top level community figures buy into this? Is there any benefit to these assumptions? Are these statements just based on being fans or hyping how much room there is to get better?
Two weeks is too short a time to learn the new matchups and timings but give them four-six months training and I have no doubt they'd be dominating the scene.
Does Grubby practice 14 hours a day or until his hands start bleeding or stretch his fingers so far that he gets cuts in between them? Does any current pro?
There's the simple reason why Flash or JD would dominate more than any other progamer. Dedication.
On May 27 2011 12:51 ghrur wrote: Does Grubby practice 14 hours a day or until his hands start bleeding or stretch his fingers so far that he gets cuts in between them? Does any current pro?
There's the simple reason why Flash or JD would dominate more than any other progamer. Dedication.
You're sick of hearing about this, so you make a new topic about it? I don't get this...
I personally feel that there isn't even a high enough skill ceiling in SC2 to allow players like Flash and Jaedong to shine, but I'm not going to go posting in the SC2 forums about it.
On May 27 2011 12:51 ghrur wrote: Does Grubby practice 14 hours a day or until his hands start bleeding or stretch his fingers so far that he gets cuts in between them? Does any current pro?
There's the simple reason why Flash or JD would dominate more than any other progamer. Dedication.
So its really like a month instead of two weeks?
Why would Grubby dominate in a month? I'm not arguing that innate talent would help him here at all. For my argument's purpose, he might never be at the top. Jaedong and Flash eventually would because of practice hours and dedication.
Flash often mentions how much he loves Broodwar and thinks about the game even outside practice. He even said he never gets tired of playing, which is ridiculous given their practice schedule. IF he enjoyed SC2 as much he would become the best player very fast. Not 2 weeks but I doubt he'd need 6 month either. But that's a big if.
Jaedong OTOH, I could see him excelling at something he maybe didn't like as much.
The actual time frames until a BW player becomes good at SC2 does not matter, it is not the point. The point of the article was that BW's enduring scene has continuously been giving birth to tougher and tougher competition, elite coaching, and exceptional work ethic with highly refined practice efficiency. Higher than in any other competitive gaming scene. What a very good BW player would bring with him into SC2 isn't BW proficiency, but the skills he has acquired playing BW to become good at SC2. Whether or not Flash will win a ridiculous number of GSLs in a row should he switch is unknown, however from the perspective of the Elephant author, he should be able to. Not because he has had success in BW, but because of the way he became successful in BW.
If a child were to invent a completely new swim stroke, Michael Phelps would still be pretty fast swimming it, even if it is not his main stroke.
Why are you getting so caught up about 'two weeks.' It's clearly a hyperbolic time period thrown out with no real thought behind it. The point is not predicting how long it would take Flash/Jaedong to dominate SC2, it's to emphasize the inevitability of them doing so should they ever decide to make the switch.
On May 27 2011 13:18 red4ce wrote: Why are you getting so caught up about 'two weeks.' It's clearly a hyperbolic time period thrown out with no real thought behind it. The point is not predicting how long it would take Flash/Jaedong to dominate SC2, it's to emphasize the inevitability of them doing so should they ever decide to make the switch.
You think 2 weeks is inevitable? The point of that number is to say that they would need very little practice at all to be better than people who have been playing since before release. If it was phrased more like 'Whether it is 2 weeks or 2 years Flash and Jaedong will be at the top' then yes it would be to emphasize inevitability. The point is to say that it would be easy for them to win and they would do it in no time.
On May 27 2011 13:18 red4ce wrote: Why are you getting so caught up about 'two weeks.' It's clearly a hyperbolic time period thrown out with no real thought behind it. The point is not predicting how long it would take Flash/Jaedong to dominate SC2, it's to emphasize the inevitability of them doing so should they ever decide to make the switch.
You think 2 weeks is inevitable? The point of that number is to say that they would need very little practice at all to be better than people who have been playing since before release. If it was phrased more like 'Whether it is 2 weeks or 2 years Flash and Jaedong will be at the top' then yes it would be to emphasize inevitability. The point is to say that it would be easy for them to win and they would do it in no time.
See you missed the entire point of "The elephant in the room". The point is that BW progamers practice MUCH more and more intelligently. The idea of two weeks is that they would be able to fit that much practice in that short of a time because BW pros don't mess around.
On May 27 2011 13:18 red4ce wrote: Why are you getting so caught up about 'two weeks.' It's clearly a hyperbolic time period thrown out with no real thought behind it. The point is not predicting how long it would take Flash/Jaedong to dominate SC2, it's to emphasize the inevitability of them doing so should they ever decide to make the switch.
You think 2 weeks is inevitable? The point of that number is to say that they would need very little practice at all to be better than people who have been playing since before release. If it was phrased more like 'Whether it is 2 weeks or 2 years Flash and Jaedong will be at the top' then yes it would be to emphasize inevitability. The point is to say that it would be easy for them to win and they would do it in no time.
See you missed the entire point of "The elephant in the room". The point is that BW progamers practice MUCH more and more intelligently. The idea of two weeks is that they would be able to fit that much practice in that short of a time because BW pros don't mess around.
First, this isn't commentary on 'The Elephant in the Room'. I am saying intrigue is right in his overall conclusions if what other community member have said is right.
Second, who cares why Flash/Jaedong would be able to beat others in two weeks. In the statement I was referencing Idra said it not as some kind of commentary on how specifically the Koreans practice but as commentary on how easily they would be able to start dominating. The reason for their easy domination wasn't relevant and I think this period is extremely important because the idea isn't that over a long period of time they will catch up to current SC2 players but that they will come in and immediately start owning.
I would say "The Elephant in the Room" is more of an attempt to bring the issue to the front of everyone's minds, so that we understand the potential for a radical shift to occur should many BW-pros switch to SC2. In that sense, it's also targeted at the newer SC2 community that hasn't really followed Brood War enough to understand the dominance of some BW pros. Anyone can speculate either ways on how the differences between BW and SC2 will influence the pros who tried to switch.
You can bring bring up the seemingly irrelevant to support your argument--simply because we can't tell how well someone will perform until they actually start playing the game competitively.
I don't think anyone said dominate in two weeks. I remember them saying "take games off of top level players within two weeks" Sounds reasonable to me. However I wouldn't put it passed Flash or Jaedong to dominate within two weeks.
I can't see how skill can't transfer. I've read this argument countless times, but I still can't understand it. Flash and JD are the best at BW thanks to their stronger will to practice, their better decision making, their flawless macro, their more precise micro, their ability to think very fast, and above all their stronger mental. I can't see how these abilities can't transfer, and if Flash was able to practice harder and make better decision than Nada in BW, I'd like to know why it wouldn't be the same in SC2.
Let's name the three best pros of sc2 (almost unarguably, but in no order) 1. Nestea 2. MC 3. MVP
Now, what do these players have in common? They were all scbw pros. Thus, the conclusion can be made that skills indeed DO transfer over. That's why we don't see a lot of cs or wc3 pros being at this top top level. This can be due to work ethic, rts thought, or mechanics. Whatever. It doesn't matter Not only that, but they were BAD pros (good in comparison to everyone else, but bad compared to other pros) Most of the other pros haven't transferred, or were older and more "washed up" (though arguments could be made for fruitdealer, but i'll avoid that flaw). The other pros are better than mc fruitdealer and mvp. Thus, it's pretty logical that in due time, if these other pros switched to sc2, they would be better in sc2.
On May 27 2011 12:45 SlipperySnake wrote: The assumption that Flash and Jaedong will be dominant with little effort if true or at least believed ruins the illusion of SC2 as real competition.
That's the main problem with what you're trying to say.
People who believe Flash and Jaedong would destroy the competitive scene should they switch to SC2 believe they will because they possess the necessary skills to propel them that far ahead that quickly. Two weeks may be an exaggeration, though
You're assuming that such people believe they'd come over and be dominant, "with little effort" or whatever. That's not the case.
A large and important part of what makes Jaedong and Flash the top players in BW right now and what makes people believe they would be top players in SC2 is the amount of effort and willpower they put into the game. Those two have an uncommon drive and competitive spirit to be at the top of the game they have chosen. That's the key.
At the highest levels of BW play, the difference in mechanics between players are almost (not completely, but almost) negligible. Beyond that, all pro players are back up by teams which work together to develop and optimize new build orders and strategies. At the end of the day, those things really aren't what those two will be remembered for.
Should Jaedong and Flash switch to SC2, what will largely take them to the top is the effort they will put into the game and the competitive spirit they possess. It won't be just their mechanics or their BW game sense. That's not what anyone is saying.
So to reiterate, you're completely misunderstanding what the people you're disagreeing with are saying. Flash and Jaedong would destroy SC2 with their incredible work ethic, passion, and love for competition.
no one is saying with no effort tbls will be able to transition and dominate. that's because ppl like flash have the most effort (lolosl). and that effort translates into godly gameplay.
On May 27 2011 16:06 Diglett wrote: fd does, i think he means nestea.
no one is saying with no effort tbls will be able to transition and dominate. that's because ppl like flash have the most effort (lolosl). and that effort translates into godly gameplay.
There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that Flash would be the best SC2 player in the world given a reasonable amount of time (not two weeks (although I'm sure he would be really fucking good after that time as well) but a couple of months). There isn't a single aspect of competetive RTS that he doesn't master.
The only thing I wonder about is if SC BW can survive the loss of Jaedong and Flash to injury or switch. They are the main people keeping SC progaming alive, along with smaller contributions from Bisu.
I doubt even the entire rolster of the next grade of players, including Zero, Stork, Leta can keep SC progaming barely alive.
EPT
