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After a couple days of facing a ludicrous amount of 2-rax bunker rushes and losing to roughly 110% of them, I had my buddy who's masters zerg & protoss & diamond terran try to show me how to beat it, and we got damn close on how to overcome the 2-rax bunker rush, but we hit on something while testing it back and forth on Xel'Naga caverns.
On shorter maps, like Xel'Naga, or close positions metal or something, there's a way to sim-city your bunkers to make that 2 rax bunker push virtually unstoppable. According to him at least, which is a master-level opinion, he says it's enough to make him abandon hatch-first on these maps.
Simply put, if you get to their hatch before it pops and you can put your bunker between the hatch and the gas/minerals, the lings/drones can't get in to attack the scvs and you can't stop the bunkers from going up. Also, even when the hatch pops, the creep won't have spread enough to put spines out of range of the bunkers, meaning you WILL lose the hatch, any spines you tried to start, probably some drones and lings, too.
The placement I'm talking about is something like this, on either side. The right side would probably be a bit more effective, as the placement there would additionally block drones/lings from moving up or down the ramp, as well.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3LQCa.jpg)
As you can see, even after the hatch pops, there isn't enough creep to place spines intelligently.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EAYfm.jpg)
And it just goes downhill from there.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ys3uS.jpg)
Supposedly QXC and IdrA have been touting 2rax bunker rushes as the best TvZ strat lately, and I'll agree that's it's damn tough. With this sort of sim-city available, I'd go as far as to say that's if you hatch-first it's almost a guaranteed loss to the terran who does this. In fact, I won't even say that. I'm only Platinum and no one cares what I say. By my masters buddy says so, and apparently that hold more weight.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-209353.jpg)
 
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If you want to reference IdrA, maybe check out his recent JTV vods. I know he never goes hatch first on XelNaga though.
Good luck fellow Zergy.
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well with that placement neither lane is covered at the choke, so at most you should allow 1 marine into those bunkers. that placement leaves so much room for you to send drones to his rally points easily
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You're supposed to pull your drones from your main down to deny the scvs building the bunker. At your first picture, your hatch is almost done and he just started the bunkers. Just pull your drones earlier, you won't lose much mining time and you need them to kill reinforcements and kill scvs as they are building the bunkers.
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i'm sorry to state the obvious, but who goes hatch first on xel'naga? :-))
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On May 16 2011 16:52 anatem wrote:
i'm sorry to state the obvious, but who goes hatch first on xel'naga? :-))
exactly why I first hatch!!
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Hatch first is the same as nexus or cc first, an eco cheese that assumes the opponent does something special in order for it to work.
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On May 16 2011 17:00 Yurie wrote:
Hatch first is the same as nexus or cc first, an eco cheese that assumes the opponent does something special in order for it to work.
LOL? Eco cheese? no its not. Its a way so that zerg doesn't fall behind a terran or protoss opponent. Staying 1 base vs 1 base is what terran/toss want rather then you play smart and get an expansion early which you have to have to not die.
The later you take your expansion, the happier that terran/toss player is as their natural will finish at the same time or possibly even ahead of yours.
Now if zerg was doing 3 hatch 3 base before pool or something yes that would be an eco cheese, but hatch first is not lol.
Against terran the only times hatch first is insanely hard too hold off anything is close positions shattered temple/metal, and xelnaga. On any other map (I have backwater/delta/slag pits veto'd) hatch first is fine vs terran, and can be vs toss but very situational on that. Do not listen to this poster as he has no idea what he's talking about.
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I agree with Blade.
The only time it is not holdable is on close positions. I think same side close positions on Storm peaks is also hard (west, west or east east).
Xelnaga... I think it's doable! you just have to use ur drone scout smartly and see what comes out of his base so you can pull drones on time and not whhen the 2-3 scv's are already right beside your hatch
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Ok I watched the replay. At 3:11 your drone at the tower sees 1 marine 2 scvs coming to you. Its probably a bunker rush and you should of pulled some drones to your natural. Instead you send your drone to mine and only pull drones when its too late.
Why dont you just block the area in between hatch and geyser with your drones? On sens stream i see him do this alot and he just sends the drones to mine after the terran gives up. I know that bunker rushes are pretty bullshit especially on maps where they can bunker wall like shakuras but if you know its popular you look ahead and block it. In this case you actually did see 2 scvs and a marine and 2 rax.
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On May 16 2011 19:49 T0fuuu wrote:
Ok I watched the replay. At 3:11 your drone at the tower sees 1 marine 2 scvs coming to you. Its probably a bunker rush and you should of pulled some drones to your natural. Instead you send your drone to mine and only pull drones when its too late.
Why dont you just block the area in between hatch and geyser with your drones? On sens stream i see him do this alot and he just sends the drones to mine after the terran gives up. I know that bunker rushes are pretty bullshit especially on maps where they can bunker wall like shakuras but if you know its popular you look ahead and block it. In this case you actually did see 2 scvs and a marine and 2 rax.
This is absolutely true.
You need to pull drones far earlier and - if neccessary - pull all but maybe 5-6 drones from your mineral line. Intercept him as far away from your base as possible, that allows you to delay the bunkers until your lings or spines pop.
Xel'Naga is imho one of the easier maps to hold the bunker rush because you usually can see it from miles away. While there will always be times where it gets completed, it's in no way a 100% loss.
Also, force the marines to move back, so even if the bunker gets completed, you can deny his marines from getting in by using good drone surrounds, though that requires very good micro.
You can also get a hatch earlier, which makes bunker rushes even easier to defend. Many Zerg who die to bunker rushes do 16 hatch, which requires good drone micro to survive. 13 or 14 hatch are safer as you get your creep earlier and can place spinecrawlers faster.
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Depending on how many scv's they send, I find it pretty easy to snipe the building ones by microing a couple of drones.. It's definitely possible.
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I always go hatch first against terran and dont have problems against 2 rax. just pull 7 drones as soon as the bunker goes down.
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On May 16 2011 20:40 hifriend wrote:
Depending on how many scv's they send, I find it pretty easy to snipe the building ones by microing a couple of drones.. It's definitely possible.
i think the OPs point is that the positioning shown here makes that very very hard.
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2 Rax bunker rushes have been part of the metagame for so long....one would assume that pros would have figured this out already and exploited the shit out of it? This is merely player error in these games.
You need to pull drones as soon as you scout this happening to your natural. The shift-click trick with a couple drones on the SCVs will make quick work of this. Bunker build time was increased for this exact purpose.
It's tough to hatch first on XNC as it is anyways, 14/14 is recommended but hatch first is certainly viable.
Sure, the positioning here is extremely favorable to the Terran, but you should always have an overlord floating over your natural and pull drones immediately upon scouting this. Zerg response was incorrect by a long shot in these pictures.
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On May 16 2011 21:20 kerpal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 20:40 hifriend wrote:
Depending on how many scv's they send, I find it pretty easy to snipe the building ones by microing a couple of drones.. It's definitely possible. i think the OPs point is that the positioning shown here makes that very very hard.
Yes, the key point made is this positioning makes it much much harder to sniper the builder SCV. And yes, if you pull drones sooner and try to deny the placement it may prevent this. But if Terran brings 2-3 SCV they can usually at least get a bunker started, and if it gets started here, then it's much harder to stop.
tl;dr: If Terran gets a bunker started here, you're pretty boned, so either have good enough micro to prevent placement at all, or go pool first on close positions.
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Why do you place a drone at the watch tower if you aren't going to react to anything? See SCV's/marine coming for your base pull 5-6 drones and take out the marine (slower, no mineral walk, higher dps, etc). If the bunker does complete, the focus should be on marines not the bunker itself. A spine crawler is optimal but a horde of lings is fine don't send like 6 lings that just scratch the bunker. Just play calm and remember a hatchery at 25% hp is just as optimal as a hatchery at 100% hp.
Sniping building SCV's isn't hard at all, just shift queue a bunch of clicks on it so when it is attackable it attacks or follows it. The main issue I see when people complain about this stuff is their drone sitting idle after an SCV moves, the player notices it but the SCV moves again after 2-3 hits and drone sits idle agoin.
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On May 16 2011 21:20 kerpal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 20:40 hifriend wrote:
Depending on how many scv's they send, I find it pretty easy to snipe the building ones by microing a couple of drones.. It's definitely possible. i think the OPs point is that the positioning shown here makes that very very hard.
I still think with equally good micro the outcome will be pretty close to 50/50 win or loss.
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United States2231 Posts
Oddly enough, I don't have many issues with bunker rushes on Xel'Naga. I actually think the wide-open natural and double choke-points helps a lot when it comes to defending that attack.
Bring enough drones to either kill the SCV or block the Marines. Either one works. Then you should already have 8 lings and 2 queens building. Once those get out, as long as there isn't already 2-3 marines in a bunker, the push has been squashed.
Perhaps the most important detail is to keep the amount of drones you pull relative to the amount of SCVs he brings, a 2:1 ratio with 3 more for good measure will usually suffice. If you can't reach the SCVs, all you have to do is keep the Marines from getting in the bunker.
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EPT
