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Note: This is a response to Elephant in the Room. I am expanding on a response I put up there previously.
Edit: it's also my 1000th post, so YAY!! I'm now a corsair, killing ovies 
In the article, intrigue talks about how "The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce." He talks about how most players want to "play SC2 freely" and "play for fun." He quotes Guemchi saying that the Startale in-house practice had little structure and how everyone just did what he wanted to do. That sort of environment does not foster perfection or innovation, and the game becomes stagnant and eventually, a farce.
So let's talk about BW. BW got to where it is today PRECISELY because of the hard work of the players, coaches, and the mapmakers. Players in BW are constantly thinking about new strategies and paradigms to be ahead of the curve. Examples include Savior's 3-hatch muta, Bisu's FE into Sair/DT, Flash's Double Armory/anticarrier build, and JD's 3-hatch spire into 5-hatch hydra. Every one of those builds and the play style matching those builds took the dedication and hard work of not only the player known for using it, but his team who helped him develop those builds. Even now, the game's evolving and new paradigms are created. TvT nowadays don't involve dropships that much, but rather wraiths and valkyries to gain air superiority. ZvP involves more +1 corsairs than, say, in 2009. ZvT can actually involve mass queens. A little further back, we had the TvZ late-mech switch and hive-tech ZvZ. ALL these builds and schools of thought were the result of hours and hours of practice and brainstorming by teams and players to gain that small edge.
Mapmakers contributed significantly to the evolution of the game as well. Mani's article Celestial Terrain and Empyrean's Decade of Promaps show how the maps evolved over time and what mapmakers tried to do to bring exciting yet balanced gameplay. Along came some spectacular failures, such as Mercury, Demon's Forest, and Battle Royal, but also produced really good, sometimes legendary maps such as Nostalgia, Luna, Rush Hour 3, and Fighting Spirit. The point is that mapmakers were and are also thinking and working hard to create exciting maps for players to play on.
*Aside: This is why I was SO HEARTBROKEN when the match-fixing scandal happened. Those 10-odd people threatened to undo years of hard work and dedication that so many people poured into the BW scene. Kim Carrier was as well. It showed just how fragile an e-sports scene can be.*
From what the article has said, that's not happening in SC2. Again, most players play for fun, and just stick with whatever build or strategy yields decent results. Mapmakers (or Blizzard, whoever you want) are not as bold in their thinking, opting to "just make maps bigger." The resulting sloppiness in games that are mentioned so often in forums make people think that it's not hard to become pro and make a living. They think they can make it just by playing maybe 4 hours a day on ladder. The game becomes, to be frank, a joke.
Now do you see why I as a BW fan get mad at SC2 and its scene sometimes? If it was just another game, I would've just called it a bad game and leave it at that. However, since SC2 bears the name "Starcraft," it must live up to not just the GAME, but all those people who shed blood, sweat, and tears to make BW the legendary game it is today. You now see how much it takes to make a game beyond a game. The game can't be just "fun" for you, but you need to be passionate about it, willing to become one with the game. If the SC2 scene is a bubble and it bursts, this will probably be the reason why. The tournaments are there. The money is there. Where's the passion? Is everyone going to wait for all the patches and expansions before being passionate about the game?
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United States4796 Posts
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I'm with you Bro!!! More BW-SC2 comparisons for lifeeeeee!!~
why did the scandal have to take all the fan favourites !@#!@$!@%!@%!@#. e.g, hwasin, yarnc, savior, upmagic ;___;
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Well said. I do think that the main thing holding SC2 back, however, is time.
Remember when BW had just come out? There was competitive play back then too... but it wasn't nearly as professional as it is today. Maynard had to invent a technique we now take for granted. In some ways, SC2 is way ahead because people can build off what we know from BW... but the game is still very young.
Eventually, as the teams become situated, and an OSL/MSL equivalent becomes apparent (GSL is the obvious contender, but we never know), I have every hope the SC2 scene will improve.
At the moment, though, you and intrigue are right. Don't worry though - the passion will come! 
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50595 Posts
wow jpak I didn't think you were even interested in SC2.
I agree with you though,SC2 can only be a successor of BW if the community has the passion to do what the BW community did and continues to do.
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I'm nowhere close to making a living off of Starcraft 2 and I know I personally have the passion to put in the heart and hours that Brood War legends did. And since I'm just the average Joe I have no doubts that there are pros who have the type of passion you speak of, you just don't kno what goes on behind the scenes and unaware of just how tense things are for a lot of the players.
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I sometimes feel out of my depth when people compare BW and SC2 because tbh I never played BW. Even though I am old enough, I played command and conquer and WC3 back in the day, but not BW. Back then I remember that RTSs and PC gaming was at the heart of the mainstream. Consoles were really expensive and so if there was a family computer in the house, parents used to buy their kids games for that instead. This was before playstations existed and nobody was really playing FPSs. Shootem ups were considered the most hardcore form of gaming back then.
What I'm getting at is that the gaming world is a totally different place now. For most gamers RTSs are a genre of gaming that has already died out.
What happened is that while most of the world was moving forwards in gaming, there were some people who never stopped playing the same RTSs. The community which became built around this scene was self contained and insular. After such a long time SCBW cannot be criticised as a game at all, since it has come to define everything about the genre.
In my opinion SC2 has been a surprise success, and one that only Blizzard could have pulled off. No other company in their right minds would make an RTS these days (except bungie, and that didn't exactly work out well). The Pro scene in the west is blooming thanks to streaming over the internet. I only wish that many more people would play casually as well as watching so much.
Of course SC2 cannot yet compete with the rich heritage of BW, but I am so glad that it exists and I hope (but expect) that it isn't the last major RTS we will see.
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Grats on your 1k post! Nice read!
Is everyone going to wait for all the patches and expansions before being passionate about the game?
yy agree....
Is liek when expansion packs will be release we will probably need to wait another year (after exp release) to get the game some kind of balanced again, (if they add new and remove some units).
I hope they remove mothership, sensor tower(WTF), dot stun spells, force field cause imo it has got nothing to do in competitive Starcraft.
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On May 13 2011 00:08 jpak wrote:
Is everyone going to wait for all the patches and expansions before being passionate about the game?
This is another thing that you have to take into consideration; people poured insane amounts of time just in BW build orders, strategies, and maps knowing full well that the fundamental numbers of the game (build times, abilities, unit statistics) were already static, thus you could make slight tweaks in your builds, strategies, and maps and you could map out exactly how that would affect everything else.
In SC2, the fundamental numbers of the game are always threatening to change from patch to patch (not to mention the planned expansions). This type of scenario is creating a game whose equations are always in flux, thus possibly undermining any sort of exhaustive preparation. This in turns undermines the efforts of people who really devote insane amounts of time into the game, instead rewarding those players that are more adaptive and capable of thinking on the fly. Many games end up so one sided, even on the highest level, because people have not yet fully mapped out the timings, the strengths of those timings, and the precise amount of units you need to break that timing, of everything like in BW; the changing numbers of the game and the fact that SC2 isn't even a year old yet means that we simply have not had enough time to do so yet.
Once SC2 balance has stabilized after all the patches and expansions, I believe that's when the true passion for the game will bloom; when people know that weeks and months of preparation won't be rendered useless by a patch tomorrow, we will see the razor thin timings and builds we see in BW developed that will not tolerate any sloppiness in execution or defense against.
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good way to spend 1000 jpak. you remind me of someone who spent 2000 on LR earlier commenting on a ZvZ
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If BW outlives SC2, I would argue it would make BW look that much better, rather than tarnish the name of "StarCraft." It was arrogant for Blizzard to make SC2 an RTS, and even more so to try and make it the successor to it as an eSport as well. That in itself damages StarCraft's name, but as BW overcomes this folly we will see yet another notch on its belt in terms of the adversities its overcome to remain THE eSport.
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On May 13 2011 02:31 randomKo_Orean wrote:
This is random, but are you in jpak and friends for LoL premier league?
No.
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On May 13 2011 03:38 jpak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 02:31 randomKo_Orean wrote:
This is random, but are you in jpak and friends for LoL premier league? No.
HUGE 1001th post!
But i enjoy your little blog its a fantastic well thought out response to a great article
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Let me try to address your post point by point, which I've tried to distill into your thesis sentences below:
On May 13 2011 00:08 jpak wrote:
That sort of environment does not foster perfection or innovation, and the game becomes stagnant and eventually, a farce.
Mapmakers (or Blizzard, whoever you want) are not as bold in their thinking, opting to "just make maps bigger."
The resulting sloppiness in games that are mentioned so often in forums make people think that it's not hard to become pro and make a living. They think they can make it just by playing maybe 4 hours a day on ladder. The game becomes, to be frank, a joke.
The tournaments are there. The money is there. Where's the passion?
1 - SC2 strategy is by no means stagnant -- where did you get that idea? Take TvP: it has evolved from 3rax vs 4gate, to 1-1-1 vs 1 or 2 gate robo, to 2 rax vs 3 gate, with now the latest iteration to be 1 rax CC into 1-1-1 marine/tank/banshee, which even now is dying out and becoming stale. And this isn't including some of the rarer builds like the fast +2 armor thor timing (a la Thorzaine). I remember when any kind of tank/thor-based army was scoffed at in TvP -- even today, I find many top NA terrans on the ladder disagree on the viability of marine/tank in TvP. I can't speak so much to the non-terran matchups, but TvZ and TvT have undergone many different strategy transitions as well -- and innovation is still underway.
2 - SC2 terrain affects the matchups in very different ways than in BW -- namely because of forcefield, toss' new deathball style, the strength of air units (i.e. banshee), and cliff-ignoring units (i.e. colossus, blink stalker). It'll take time to figure out how to make a map that's balanced for all matchups, given these different dynamics. And you can't tell me that the latest new maps aren't a step in the right direction -- or would you rather have Steppes back? =P
3 - The level of play is high, and rising -- yes you'll have spectators saying, "God what a noob mistake, I could do that better", but how many of them really could? And look at the top players of SC2 -- are they not showing repeat strong performances? And are not the gimmicky all-in cheese players slowly but surely being weeded out (particularly in the GSL)?
4 - The number of viewers for the TSL and other tournaments speak for themselves. More people are getting involved, more people are getting excited over this game. Fan clubs are being made, more hype is arising. I think the passion is growing.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
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The whole article you're basing your blog off of called SC2 competition a farce because the big dogs are still in BW. The BW to SC2 converts kicking ass now are actually scrubs from BW. Ergo, once the heavyweights currently still skullcracking people in Korea decide SC2 time hits, the level of play will up significantly later
The one anecdote you focus on about the lack of structure in a house was not the heart of the article by any means
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On May 13 2011 02:05 Chef wrote:
If BW outlives SC2, I would argue it would make BW look that much better, rather than tarnish the name of "StarCraft." It was arrogant for Blizzard to make SC2 an RTS, and even more so to try and make it the successor to it as an eSport as well. That in itself damages StarCraft's name, but as BW overcomes this folly we will see yet another notch on its belt in terms of the adversities its overcome to remain THE eSport.
I in no way can take this post seriously. You seem to be completely blinded and frankly its sad. "it was arrogant for blizzard to make sc2 an RTS" What? What else could it be an fps? An MMO? You question them trying to make the sequeal to a game its successor? And you think all this damages "the starcraft name"? You think that BW is going to overcome SC2 as an esport? I'm really not trolling but you seem to be wildly brainwashed. Bw is dead outside of Korea and its never coming back. That isn't my opinion its just the sad fact of life. I really don't even know what to say about this. That Final edit has done nothing good for TL.
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I would have much preferred StarCraft:Ghost over trying to improve upon something which is already perfect due to a complete fluke. Yeah, it damages the reputation of StarCraft you make a crappy sequel. What would the Matrix have been if it were just the first movie? That kind of thing. The Matrix went from being a classic to being 'well the first movie was good, anyway.'
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
you have to give sc2 time
theoretically, had sc2 come before BW then BW would be in the same shoes. You would have pros that had played the game for years, established teams, sponsors and events. Then you would have a game after it that is starting from scratch and not established yet; it's a domino effect. Once the newer game gets more time to establish and get popular, new sponsors and more events and in return create pros similar to BW to take the game more 'serious'.
Although, internationally, I think sc2 has already surpassed BW competitively. I don't know where you say the passion is missing in sc2. The Nestea vs sC match had everyone excited and passionate, the events like IEM and Dreamhack say otherwise aswell, the amount of streams and streaming shows like state of the game are drawing lots of interest. Honestly, how can you even say that no passion in sc2 right now? It's been 1 year only too...quite the opposite
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Although, internationally, I think sc2 has already surpassed BW competitively. I don't know where you say the passion is missing in sc2. The Nestea vs sC match had everyone excited and passionate, the events like IEM and Dreamhack say otherwise aswell, the amount of streams and streaming shows like state of the game are drawing lots of interest. Honestly, how can you even say that no passion in sc2 right now? It's been 1 year only too...quite the opposite
While SC2 has reached competitive potential that many other games can only dream of, I think you are confusing passion with something else altogether. TSL3 and all the LANs pulling in number is not really passion, a lot of it is "SC2-is-new-so-I'll-check-it-out" kind of thing. Passion is pulling in stadiums full of spectators for a game that has been out for many many years. Passion is running a tournament like TSL2 for the foreigners, even though all the other players have given up ever finding a hope from the foreign scene. Passion is playing an old ass game with old-ass graphics even though newer games with newer graphics and more players stream out like there is no tomorrow.
Right now, I'd say most of the fans have yet to prove their passion for SC2. If you think all these fans that tune in for the TSL3 this year, then within months go on to play the next shiny new game is passion, then you insult the passion that fueled BW and allow it to live on for so long. Passion for SC2 will be when Dawn of War III, SupCom 3, WarCraft 5, MW10, and StarCraft 3 have come out, and people are still playing StarCraft 2 because they just love the game so much. Passion for SC2 will be when many of the sponsors have left SC2 because they just couldn't get rich quick enough with it, and there are still sponsors and players clinging on to the game because they just can't let it go. That will be passion, and until then SC2 is nowhere close to SC1 in terms of passion.
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On May 13 2011 07:21 Chef wrote:
I would have much preferred StarCraft:Ghost over trying to improve upon something which is already perfect due to a complete fluke. Yeah, it damages the reputation of StarCraft you make a crappy sequel. What would the Matrix have been if it were just the first movie? That kind of thing. The Matrix went from being a classic to being 'well the first movie was good, anyway.'
You just have to tune out the bad stuff. Classic case: Star Wars.
As of now, I'm willing to leave some room to hope for a better SC2 via patches or expansions. I'm not, however, gonna hold my breath. If anything happens and SC2 dies, I'll be saddened for a little while and then go back to watching Baby vs Snow in the OSL finals.
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Blizzard is trying too hard to push sc2 into this new shiny super e-sports game while at the same time pander to all the wowplayers that doesn't really know left from right. BW became the powerhouse it is because the players and community deemed it worthy of competitive play, I have a really hard time to see that anything a company tries to push towards will ever be as successive as something that a community pushes for. In my opinion Blizzard is doing more harm than good just because it is a company and especially when it has activision breathing down their necks saying that sc2 isn't profitable enough.
All in all just let it be, if the community wants it to become a super e-sport it probably will be and if you're trying to hard with conflicting ideals (progaming vs casual gaming) you're just gonna end up with a product that's meh for everyone.
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EPT
