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>I still struggle to keep money low and supply up to date.
focus on that.
sc2 isnt a game based on pure mechanics. you could be an absolute low IQ tardface and get C+ in broodwar purely by playing fast and having better builds, this really isnt the case in sc2. you need to make better ingame decisions. the only way you lose when ur up 1 base, and double the food is pure decision making.
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Simply stim and a-moving when you're double supply with better upgrades and just building more units should win it for you. I'm guessing you're probably over-microing and doing it very badly as well as not macroing during the battle.
Forget about the APM, you can get high masters with 90-100. Watch your own replays and improve your micro; basic unit splitting and move and shoot should be enough to get better value out of your armies. I'll check the replay out once you upload it.
On May 12 2011 06:33 apalemorning wrote:
you could be an absolute low IQ tardface and get C+ in broodwar purely by playing fast and having better builds
Keep thinking that's why you couldn't get that rank and that everyone who did are just trained noobs lol. I have huge respect for anyone who got C+ and above on ICCUP. BW had the same level of decision-making as sc2, you just had to be good at the more demanding mechanics on top of it making the game much harder to master. Every single player I know to get C+ in BW did it through being VERY strong at strategy and decisionmaking as well as solid mechanics.
EDIT: I watched your game on Tal'darim. You forgot to research stim despite being on 3 base with a rine tank composition, otherwise you would've easily won the battle in the center. Splitting a few marines off to each side would have also helped.
However, the main problem is your apm being sub-50 and after watching your fpview I think it's simply because you're mouse-clicking too much. Navigate the map using hotkeys whenever possible, mouseclicking on the minimap to go to your natural, main or production buildings is really time consuming. Just double hit the closest hotkeyed building/unit instead. Set location hotkeys, f2,f3 and f4 and bind them to your main cc, nat and production area if you don't like having your cc's on different hotkeys.
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On May 12 2011 06:33 apalemorning wrote:you could be an absolute low IQ tardface and get C+ in broodwar purely by playing fast and having better builds
Uh, no.
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United States889 Posts
learning how to win with the lead is a big part of improving and once you do that it'll be a big step forward. it basically highlights decision making and scouting as the two things in your play that are lacking. if nothing else, just by scouting and having the bigger army you can deny his expos and starve him out. it sucks in terms of fun, but locking him down and starving him to death is foolproof.
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can you identify the exact moment where you lost?
as this is starcraft 2 most games come down to one big battle
you can usually find out where you lost in that battle
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
If you post some replays, we can identify what the problem is. If you say "I'm doing everything right, and I lose", there's very little that I can say to help you. Post a replay and I'll analyze it.
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Macro macro macro macro macro.
And posting replays will help us analyze you any further.
EDIT: Also, don't forget to macro 
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On May 12 2011 06:33 apalemorning wrote:
sc2 isnt a game based on pure mechanics. you could be an absolute low IQ tardface and get C+ in broodwar purely by playing fast and having better builds,
Uhh I got C+ in BW with 170 apm, don't talk like all you needed were mechanics, it's insulting to many players and makes me think you didn't play broodwar.
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I'm guessing that this is a problem with thinking you can beat your opponent's army but ending up just suiciding all your stuff...
If you're at a point in the game where you think you can win but aren't sure, you want to scout (scan) your opponent's stuff, and eyeball it to see if you can break his defenses. If you know you can kill him, then go kill him; if you're really not sure (but are still ahead) you can stay back but you need to maintain your lead, whether it be economically or tech-wise. Eventually, you will force your opponent to move out, and that's where you go for the win....
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On May 12 2011 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Macro macro macro macro macro. And posting replays will help us analyze you any further. EDIT: Also, don't forget to macro
this is how I got into masters :D lol basically always have 1 scv building depots and don't stop your macro OR SCV PRODUCTION. <----- HUGE problem even with a lot of diamond players. Worker production wins/loses games. When people say Macro I think they are including that aspect ^^ but it is often overlooked. Gotta keep making those scv's
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On May 12 2011 07:48 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 06:33 apalemorning wrote:
sc2 isnt a game based on pure mechanics. you could be an absolute low IQ tardface and get C+ in broodwar purely by playing fast and having better builds, Uhh I got C+ in BW with 170 apm, don't talk like all you needed were mechanics, it's insulting to many players and makes me think you didn't play broodwar.
170 apm for SC2 is pretty fast  so technically that's "playing fast"
but yea, BW is definitely not about mechanics purely. Playing fast and having better builds will get you to D+, C- if you're really lucky.
@OP, based on your replays, it seems like you usually just make some really big errors in your play. for example, in one of your games you forgot to research stim, which is pretty huge :\ It might help to have a more precise, step-by-step gameplan. I know that's how I improved at BW when i first started, it should work just as well for SC2.
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I watched replay #2.
I think you had 85 SCVs at one point. Good job.
I saw that your third had only 1 SCV on each gas. Not too important since you had lots anyway, but you were a bit gas starved when BCs came out.
You lost some key battles due to running into sieged tanks, and watching your BCs fight his SCV repaired BCs. A small drop on your natural took it out completely; your army was completely across the map. I saw you recall your army but it took too long, tell those SCVs to turn and fight, or run away with them. In that case, with a maurader and a few rines, have them fight.
All in all, I think you left the game early. Based on this one replay, it looks like you are doing a bit better than you are giving yourself credit for.
Also, it looks like your gameplan is to get 200/200 and try and steamroll. You can try to poke in during this time and see what's going on. At several points, you could have dealt significant damage. You Don't have to outright kill him if your style is to get maxed. Do some damage and run away.
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I remember a long time ago in a nony vod he imparted a piece of advice that was golden. I've noticed throughout my life that people who are really good at something tend to share the greatest advice in offhand remarks. Not through big posts, or long speeches, but just in casual passing where they share something so basic to them which is amazingly important to someone who hasn't learned that thing yet. However I'm hyping up his particular piece of advice up a little much lol
He basically said "you noobies watching this, and i know there's alot of you out there, you just need to get to faster" basically talking about how people cant multi task well enough, microing units excessively and not macroing. Learning how to be 'quicker' and be able to switch between building up your econ/production while being as efficient with your units as possible is so amazingly important in this game. It was a huge part of the skill ceiling in bw, if you werent a genius like flash and only understand basic strategy but had great multi tasking you could go verrrrry far anyways. This is pretty true in sc2, keep on plugging away! But never forget to be AWARE of yourself.
I see so many bad people not improve because they focus too much on the fact that they suck. Not how they suck, or why other players dont suck as much as they do.
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On May 12 2011 08:03 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 07:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Macro macro macro macro macro. And posting replays will help us analyze you any further. EDIT: Also, don't forget to macro this is how I got into masters :D lol basically always have 1 scv building depots and don't stop your macro OR SCV PRODUCTION. <----- HUGE problem even with a lot of diamond players. Worker production wins/loses games. When people say Macro I think they are including that aspect ^^ but it is often overlooked. Gotta keep making those scv's
For many players this may be the problem, but after watching the replays, I'm pretty sure macro isn't what's lacking. OP, with a couple small tweaks, I'd say your macro is on par with diamond or master level players. After building a new command center, add on enough production facilities so you can spend the additional income the extra base will provide you. Also transfer a portion of SCVs from existing bases to the fresh mineral patches once the new CC finishes (ex half from the main and a few from the natural to a new third base.)
IMO, the areas you are lacking in are unit control and finding appropriate actions to take through scouting + evaluating the game state. While you're playing, take some time away from macroing to work on these things instead. It's OK to miss supply depots and production cycles once in a while. No one except the top pros have close to perfect macro and even they slip up some times. I'd also recommend watching some VODs of pros. Pay attention to how they use their units and try to figure out the reasons behind why they attack, defend, or move their units around the map.
The first game from each match on GOMTV's website is free to watch. The last 4 matches all happen to be TvT ^^.
http://www.gomtv.net/videos/index.gom
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
Game 1:
+ Show Spoiler +7 minutes in, you and your opponent are even in scvs. You both FEd. You have a larger army, but your opponent has traded a large army for factory tech.
9:45: Stim and Siege finish for your opponent. your stim is a minute and a half away. you're still quite ahead in marines and have a minor lead in workers, but your opponent has a tank, and is working on starport tech, and you haven't finished your fact w/ tech lab yet.
11:13: you begin your 3rd. You have a substatial macro lead, and will soon have the lead in tanks as well. your opponent has a factory to your rax. in your nat, you only have 2 on one gas, and in your main, you only have 1. because of this, your opponent has ~50% more gas income than you.
12:00 your opponent is quad-upgrading ground infantry and vehicles, whereas you are only single upgrading your infantry, despite haivng 2 engi bays and an armory. His expo starts.
13:00 you move out. your army is larger in terms of marines. you've started double ups for infantry, but still no vehicle upgrades.
14:00 your opponent's vehicle plate finishes, making him 1/1 1/1 to your 1/1 0/0
14:20 heroic flank. yoru 2 tanks and 2 pages of marines vs 5 tanks and 1 page of marines.
14:25 he seiges his 5 tanks.
14:49: everything's dead but 2 of his siege tanks. Side notes: you had 2 tanks at your nat that you didn't use this entire timet hat would have won the fight for you.
Macro note: at 13:40 when you mve out your'e at 200mins/200gas, and you are not supply blocked. at 15:00 when the fight is over you're at 1200mins/400gas, and you're not supply blocked. If that was army count instead of banked resources, you could a-move to victory at that moment.
17:30 your macro continues to spiral out of control. You now have 3000 minerals. you could make 60 marines, or septuple expo, or something.
18:15 you now have 4000 minerals and 500 gas. that's 20 marauders and 40 marines. You still don't have stimpack.
Macro note: at this point, it's worth noting that of your 6 geysers, only 2 of them actually have 3 workers on them-- one in the main and one in the nat. some extra gas might help here. also, you haven't been supply capped thise whole time, but in general, when supply capped at 200/200 or having difficulty spending money, build more production facilities.
21:40 after a long standofff, you engage his army with your bio force. you don't have stim, and 7 of your 10 tanks are at your natural instead of at the frontline. Instead of behing behind 10 tanks to 15, which might be salvagable, you're behind 3 tanks to 15, since 7 of yours are away partying.
22:30 you drop from 103 scvs to 58 as he shoots into your natural. if they had fled rather than hung out, you could have saved them all.
You now have 7k mins, but only 400 gas, a symptom of your lack of workers on gas. Your opponent has double your tank count, and matches you in terms of workers and expos in any sense that matters. You have no tech lead, and has 0/0 vehicle grades to his 3/3. this game is over.
Lessons to learn from game 1)
1) pleeease put guys on gas.
2) macro during fights
3) have your army together when you engage; dont' leave idle dudes at your nat.
4) dear lord sweet jesus PLEASE put guys on GAS
5) if you can't make enough untis to spend your minerals, expo and make more rax.
Game 2) + Show Spoiler +
10:00 in, you have 1k mins and 400 gas unspent. your opponent does not. you remedy this quickly.
13:00 in, having weathered the banshee harass, you're still ahead in all the ways that ocunt.
15:00 ok dude i'm gonna be real with you here, you need to saturate your gasses. one in your main has only 2 workers, and one in your nat has only one. one of your gasses in the main has 4 workers, too -____-
16:00 to 17:45 okay, so don't scan unless you have marines by the banshee. by now you should have considered investing in a raven.
19:00 ok so despite it all, you're still ahead in macro and army size AND upgrades. but you've oversaturated the dicks out of your main. send some of those guys to the nat eh
19:50 omg did he just suicide that army you so got this.
21:30 so... let's go over this. you have a serious macro advantage. You just crushed his army liberally and are free to expand and tech as your desire. so you take all your marines, but only half your tanks, and attack-move up a ramp into his siege line without even scanning to see what's there.
21:45 oh, you pulled back. good, but you get my point.
22:30 your prodigal (staying at home) tanks return to the frontline. 4k mins, 1k gas. just make a CC at every base on the map imo. your opponent is transition to BCs. let's see how this goes.
22:45 what are you doing with your scvs
24:00 ok expos are good
25:47 drops happen when contains happen. you'll learn to deal with this with practice.
26:15 you need to either run the scvs away or attackw ith them, not have them hang out. also, you don't need to send that many marines back.
26:38 yeah cause nwo you can't stop the BCs
27:15 ok so you should just hang out the marines near your tanks to protect them. running forward like that is dangerous. as soona s you lost your marines you should have begun retreating your tanks, since they have no more AA cover.
28:00 it's np, mass BC production on the way
30:00 so you're lucky you have more BCs here, but his grades and yamato are really hurting you.
32:00 you're ahead on workers and bases, and you have him contained. why the rush to engage?
32:30 ok dude so you can just retreat from that BC fight. if you're not gonna win, it's not like he can catch you.
35:00 why do you GG? you have more bases, more workers... you've got this in the bag.
Lessons to learn from game 2:
1) ok there's a lot of little things up there... btu like... DUDE. SATURATE YOUR GASSES. EVERY BASE. SATURATE THEM.
2) ALSO GET MECH AND AIR UPGRADES (doable with gasses)
3) 11k minerals by the end.... cmon man. make some rax.
4) you don't have "good macro" if your'e not mining gas, and have tens of thousands of minerals.
5) AND THIS IS MOST IMPORTANT: Dont be in such a rush to win. take it slow, be like a battlecruiser. chill. you're in such a hurry that you're throwing armies away and blundering your lead. also, dont' be in such a rush to lose. I could have taken over for you right at the 35:00 mark and won the game pretty easily with 2 mining bases and 66 scvs to your opponent's 1/2 a mining base with about 10 scvs on it.
I'm not going to watch game 3. here's what you need to learn:
1) SATURATE YOUR GASSES. you can't win without grades and/or tech units, and for that you need more than 2 gasses.
2) GET MECH AND AIR UGPRADES. they make a huge difference.
3) SPEND YOUR MINERALS. expo and take gasses and make marines and rax. just spam hellions and harass if you have the resources
4) in tvp, be like a battlecrusier: take it slow.
5) spend money while fighting; keep on producing
6) don't engage into enemy siege lines
7) when you're ahead in TvT, most of the time the answer isn't to end the game; it's to consolidate your lead and get more ahead.
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lol at all you kids getting mad. i was a solid C/C+ zerg in broodwar and all i did was copy builds and mass game. stop getting upset, C/C+ was garbage on iccup compared to actually good koreans. on any of the korean servers you C players would get rolled by F rank players. just sayin, make better decisions op!
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Thanks a LOT guys, especially Blazinghand. I'm back on my feet!
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
Summary of this thread: Flitsss posts a few replays, me and some other guy try to help, and 90% of the posts are people arguing about BW.
Np, Flitsss. Are you on the North America server btw?
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EPT
