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On May 03 2011 17:40 WindCalibur wrote:
Ladder is cheese fest. Better get use to it.
I got baneling or roach busted as terran 5/6 games today. Though I did not lose in all of them, winning against it doesn't feel nearly as good as winning a macro game. Not to mention that losing to it is 10 times worse than losing in a macro game.
thank you for saying what I said in the original post: people cheese on ladder.
What i said: its annoying that people cheese on ladder and its annoying that there is a lot of cheese on ladder"
What you said "there is cheese on ladder"
mind officially blown.
The 2nd paragraph was a legitimate response tho.
Winning Vs cheese= you feel no better or worse as a player when you lose/win to cheese. Macro games are where you feel rewarded because its a game you earned your win and actually improved.
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I don't get this, as a top diamond player myself I fight cheese maybe one in 10 games, some days its bad and you get cheesed 5-6 times in a row but I have a hard time believeing that the same terrans I play in tvp that aren't cheesing cheese ever TvP (who knows though fighting colossi in the late game is a bout as aggravating as what your describing, as for how to beat the 1 base all in? forcefields+highground or choke should be pretty easy....
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and a post that says "no u dont see cheese/ 1 base all ins nonstop in ladder.... because i dont in tvt" followed with "it should be easy to stop" without any suggestions. truely amazing post sir. Thank you for blessing my blog with your presense/post. Truely amazing.
In all honesty: Thank you all of you terrible posters who wrote complete wastes of time posts. Your criticism honestly makes me play better because I have always been a "fuck those people" sort of thing when it comes to people like you all and you make me play/work harder.
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Take a break from SC2 for a few days. After your brain is free from all the rage, take a look at some of the replays and try to figure out the solutions by looking at what your opponent is doing. You being a diamond player, I trust that you know your own race well enough so that you can see some of the timings that can align in defending against these all-in plays.
First try to answer the question "What should I have done in this situation?", and after that look for triggers that you can see in your opponent's play so that you know when to adjust your gameplan. Keyword here: scouting.
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Edit: Umm is this a troll? In your first post you rant about people beating you with cheese and how YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO AGAINST A FUCKIOKMG TERRAN ALL IN, Then when people respond you tell them you know how to defend one.... Serious troll man not worth it.
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On May 03 2011 17:06 MaestroSC wrote:
Well thanks for your worthless post. Where you didnt answer any question I asked. You wrote "learn to play against cheese" where I said I don't have a problem beating it its just annoying when thats all you see.
MaestroSC wrote:
Anyways I have been top 3 consistantly in my league, but over the past week have dropped to number 30 in my division and here is why:
PvZ: all they do is Roach Ling/Baneling all in
PvT: I have not seen a Terran throw down a 2nd Command Center in 3 weeks. Thor Marine with all of the SCV's repairing. Raven Tank Marine push. MMM all in. Marine SCV all-in. HAVE NOT SEEN A TERRAN DO ANYTHING BUT 1 BASE ALL IN IN 2 freaking weeks!
and PvP: so ya there is this build called a 4gate... it happens in 90% of your games.
PvRandom: 6pool, 4 gate, 1 Base all-in described previously.
See this? You say you have no trouble beating cheesy plays, and yet in your OP you specifically say that cheesy plays are the reason you've dropped to number 30 in your division.
You are not being honest with yourself.
That is probably the first thing you need to start improving - be honest with yourself.
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The AI doesn't cheese. You should play it instead of ladder, that would allow you to macro as much as you like.
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if you cant beat 1 base all in plays at the diamond level then there is a huge hole in your game, likely centered around your build orders and scouting. you shouldnt expect to move on and progress until you fill such holes.
you cant expect to play longer games if you have a huge hole in your play that leaves you vulnerable to such attacks. you must get the fundamentals down first, and the games will naturally progress from there.
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by clicking "find match" you're agreeing to play in a sandbox where the only rules are those implanted into the sc2.exe file. sounds like you're just angry that you're losing and feel like your better than people who are "cheesing" you when really they've obviously found a weakness in your SC2 armour.
why don't you switch races to whatever beats you the most, since it must seem easy for them? or maybe then you'll realise it's just as hard and the only reason you're losing is yourself.
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as far as pvp goes, 4-gate is just how the game opens. macro pvp games still exist and you can definitely get to that point in the game if thats how you want to play, you just have to open with a build that doesn't immediately die to a 4 gate.
in regards to the supposedly cheesy builds you complain about losing to, thats just how the game works. it sounds to me like you are doing one of two things:
- panicking when you are faced with some sort of aggression and losing to it because you are doing things like missing warpins and force fields that you need to hit to be master level
- playing extremely greedy, so you win the long games because you've spent every cb on probes and he hasn't but you die to anyone who attacks you
your attitude is poor. if you want to play longer games, find and practice builds that don't die to the attacks you are dying to, don't waste your time typing blog posts.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
On May 03 2011 17:31 Turgid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 17:28 _Quasar_ wrote:
lol go to BroodWar
There's less all-in. Usually only 1 game out of 5-10 features this. Yeah, if you're feeling frustrated that you can't beat something in SC2 you should play Brood War...?
Brood War is kinda better game  Skill matters more, all-in is less viable.
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10387 Posts
On May 03 2011 16:44 MaestroSC wrote:
(BTW anyone who cheeses in Diamond is the SCUM of the community. I will say it loudly and proudly, and if you cheese in your league below Diamond you deserve to be punched in your testicles until your future children become retarded. Because congratulations for wasting your own and your opponents time, if he is interested in getting better. I understand that learning to defend cheese is part of the game.. but when you play 10 games and 9 are cheeses and the other is a 1 base all-in it makes you feel like your wasting your time)
pure gold right here
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On May 03 2011 18:42 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 16:44 MaestroSC wrote:
(BTW anyone who cheeses in Diamond is the SCUM of the community. I will say it loudly and proudly, and if you cheese in your league below Diamond you deserve to be punched in your testicles until your future children become retarded. Because congratulations for wasting your own and your opponents time, if he is interested in getting better. I understand that learning to defend cheese is part of the game.. but when you play 10 games and 9 are cheeses and the other is a 1 base all-in it makes you feel like your wasting your time) pure gold right here
No he's diamond
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10387 Posts
On May 03 2011 18:52 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 18:42 ArvickHero wrote:On May 03 2011 16:44 MaestroSC wrote:
(BTW anyone who cheeses in Diamond is the SCUM of the community. I will say it loudly and proudly, and if you cheese in your league below Diamond you deserve to be punched in your testicles until your future children become retarded. Because congratulations for wasting your own and your opponents time, if he is interested in getting better. I understand that learning to defend cheese is part of the game.. but when you play 10 games and 9 are cheeses and the other is a 1 base all-in it makes you feel like your wasting your time) pure gold right here No he's diamond
I love you so much right now
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2-gate stalker vs 4gate or do a gate-robo-gate.
I used to have trouble with 1-base all-ins, but if you scout it effectively, and keep up your macro, you'll be fine.
vs Tanks/bio/raven/banshee, few stalkers, couple of sentries, lots of zealots.
Ling bling all-ins vs P? Forcefields.
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+ Show Spoiler +(BTW anyone who cheeses in Diamond is the SCUM of the community. I will say it loudly and proudly, and if you cheese in your league below Diamond you deserve to be punched in your testicles until your future children become retarded. Because congratulations for wasting your own and your opponents time, if he is interested in getting better. I understand that learning to defend cheese is part of the game.. but when you play 10 games and 9 are cheeses and the other is a 1 base all-in it makes you feel like your wasting your time)
You say you want to get better then say that defending against cheese is a waste of time...hmmm..............i don't see a connection here. Maybe you should tell flash or stork how much of cheesy newbs they were...oh wait...there just some of the best players in the world at BW.........whoops...
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On May 03 2011 18:00 KMARTRULES wrote:
Edit: Umm is this a troll? In your first post you rant about people beating you with cheese and how YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO AGAINST A FUCKIOKMG TERRAN ALL IN, Then when people respond you tell them you know how to defend one.... Serious troll man not worth it.
Actually it wasn't trolling it was legitimate question followed by a "light bulb" moment where after venting and getting my frustrations out of my head, through my hands, onto my screen, i was able to think semi-clearly and remember what i was missing in all of my games PvT. the Forge. Colossus tech is awsome, but vs 1 base all-ins u cant get more than 2 of them out in time = u are better off imo spamming gateways with a forge and chrono'ing out your armor upgrades..and when u do eventually get to colossus tech after u hold off the first 3 1 base timing pushes you are going to crush him.
Thanks to the overly abundant number of people trolling me with "people cheese on ladder" seriously insightful help likes this makes me realize how amazing of a person you are.
Talk about trolling, IMO another person should say that people cheese on ladder, because only 6 people including myself have said that so far.
If you count the Losira build as cheese, the Terran 1 base push followed by 1base all-in. (i am pretty sure this is standard for terran now.. speaking as AGAIn i have not seen a terran make a 2nd cc in 2 weeks even after playing 3 PvT's after this thread was written) And PvP isn't my problem of losing, its just annoying knowing that the chance of playing a macro game in pvp is very unlikely.
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On May 03 2011 16:44 MaestroSC wrote:
So if you are a Protoss player... wtf do you do vs the inevitable 1 base all-in that comes from Terran. Because it's all i have seen in 2 weeks from them.
Hey bro,
I sort of just skipped most the venting stuff as you suggested - been there toads. I'm a masters toss player myself, stopping 1 base all-in on terran is tough, and it's really situational. There's no absolutely '1' way to stop it. What I'd suggest starting to do more of is follows:
i) Actively scouting and understanding 'when' terran should be expanding approximately. If they're not expanding, something is up - build a robo, usually is quite useful vs one base all-ins.
ii) Get either halluc or obsv. to scout base, or poke/w probe and see what you can of unit composition + buildings, you can get a really good read on your opponents unit comp + game plan if you can do both!
iii) Build the best army possible to counter-act the all-in if it's going to be coming.
iv) Before or as the terran tries to move out, you need to try and slow him down with stalkers or any way you can find that's suitable and costs the fewest/if any units. The longer it takes for the terran to get to your base/w 1 base all-in the better chance you have to survive.
v) Micro your heart out.
In my opinion the terran 1 base all-in is most effective vs really passive protoss players that don't try to aggressively scout and really gain good map control/aggression throughout the game. the above should help you a great deal/w that. ^^ (if you've done all the above and you're still losing - you're likely not doing it well enough. keep practicing! :D )
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I know how you feel, After my first like 2-15 few games, i thought going semi even it was over
now ive lost like 20 out of my last 30 games
~_~..
Maybe its cause im Zerg or maybe ive hit my limit, i dont know yet.
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Wow, seems like you don't even enjoy the game.
To respond to what other people said, I'm a master protoss and I rarely encounter cheese. It happens, but not even close to as often as op is describing. Though that might vary from person to person.
Sounds like you need to get three builds, one for each matchup, and only do them until you at least get to master. Preferably some really really safe openings, what I did was to only use these builds:
PvZ: 3gate sentry expand
PvT: 3gate robo expand into double forge if he expands (tyler style <3)
PvP: Defensive 4gate
By doing those builds, I don't mean go into a PvZ and throw down 3 gates when you have money and start producing sentries at some random point. Spend 30-60 minutes before each ladder session in a build order trainer like YABOT and really grind those builds. If you actually want to become better, then you have to work for it. Not before you can execute your build order almost completely without thinking, can you actually improve the other things in your play.
Besides, if you can execute these builds well, you should not be able to lose to the all ins at diamond level. You should grab a replay pack from your favourite player and a notebook and just start to really analyze his play, writing down all timings and things you find interesting, and then practice the shit out of it before going out on ladder. It may seem boring at first, but it's actually extremely rewarding and interesting to see what errors you are making compared to a pro gamer. And when you finally get out there on the ladder to steal some ladder points tasteless style, it will be so much more enjoyable as you will always know what to do.
Good luck with the improving. Remember that you won't improve just by grinding ladder, you actually have to put in some effort to effeciently improve, and probably not blame anything on cheese. 
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EPT
