EPTIt's not hurting esports. IPL and NASL air at the same time. You know what will happen? People will go and watch the better one, meaning that the worse one will die out. How is that bad for esports?
Could The IPL be Hurting SC2 Esports? - Page 2
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Ferrose
United States11378 Posts
It's not hurting esports. IPL and NASL air at the same time. You know what will happen? People will go and watch the better one, meaning that the worse one will die out. How is that bad for esports? | ||
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Char711
United States862 Posts
So, why are they at the same time? Well, they're daily leagues and, surprise surprise, that's prime time. Why should the IPL take a vastly inferior time just because the NASL was there first? They'd be deliberately crippling themselves! You're asking an organization that, in the end, has to make money to take a purposeful disadvantage rather than letting them compete with a competitor without a handicap. The best part is that you're saying this at a time when both leagues are still brand new and the IPL is just barely out of the gate, giving you no true basis for any of your claims. I'm still a little shocked I actually replied to this. | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
On April 29 2011 11:40 floor exercise wrote: Someone could very easily turn this around and say NASL, with their "4 guys and a dream" approach are harming esports way more because they are taking viewers from IGN, a company with far greater resources and a much greater chance of blowing your 'esports' up and getting it into the mainstream. I mean at the end of the day, if your only concern is the proliferation of esports and getting it out to the masses, wouldn't it make way more sense for you to be accusing NASL of hurting esports if they are getting in IGN's way? Of course to do that would make you an idiot because they have every right in the world to give it their best effort to create the biggest NA league if that's their desire. But as the very first White Knight of ESPORTS I must beg you to stop using its name to spread your own biased opinions I think you are taking this way too many steps too far. You only need to address whether or not you think IPL scheduling their broadcasts at the same time period as NASL is good or bad for esports. You pretty much ignored any analysis on that discussion, which is the only discussion relevant to the blog, and went off on a bunch of tangents and way beyond the scope of the blog :o The blog could have been more focused itself, but you seem to have zoomed in on the passage put within spoiler tags of all places... If what you care about is who is harming esports more, then go write a blog about that. If you want to address whether or not IPL's scheduling decision is good or bad for esports, then go for it in a reply here. | ||
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
On April 29 2011 11:51 Count9 wrote: Proleague had 2 games broadcast on different channels at the same time for a long time, it's just juvenile people who blow this up for sc2. I'm kinda sad people can't just enjoy both shows for what they are, they don't have to constantly argue which is better to hide their own insecurities that they chose the "wrong" one to watch. There isn't a right/wrong choice, just watch for the games and for the players, people need to stop being right all the time, that's what's hurting esports, the vocal minority of idiots, not the tournament hosts. well the difference is that it's under the umbrella of BW, proleague and Kespa. | ||
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kNightLite
United States408 Posts
The reason why the day9 daily, IPL, and NASL all air at the same time is because it is prime time. For the first time in the west, we have the option to choose what we want to watch live, and that is awesome! For example this week is 2v2 week on the daily, which I'm not interested in, so I'll watch the IPL instead. If I want to watch more SC2 than that, there are 3-4 pro streams that I follow. And if none of those are on, I will fall back on vods on youtube because I don't care very much for the NASL. How awesome is that, that I have so many good options to watch esports? Another thing to point out is that with internet media its super easy to deliver on-demand content. If you really want to watch 5+ hours of SC2 each day you can, everyone offers VODs. NASL streams live twice and has paid vods, IPL+daily have free vods, and all megatournaments offer paid vods. | ||
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hellsan631
United States695 Posts
On April 29 2011 12:45 Char711 wrote: I like how you claim not to want to criticize either league while calling out only one of them in the title. You also immediately talk about how the only thing the IPL has going for it is production quality at the very beginning of your first section. You claim to not want to favor one over the other but your entire post is talking about how the IPL is trying to undercut the NASL or about how they've done something wrong. It's like the StarCraft version of Fox "Fair and Balanced." So, why are they at the same time? Well, they're daily leagues and, surprise surprise, that's prime time. Why should the IPL take a vastly inferior time just because the NASL was there first? They'd be deliberately crippling themselves! You're asking an organization that, in the end, has to make money to take a purposeful disadvantage rather than letting them compete with a competitor without a handicap. The best part is that you're saying this at a time when both leagues are still brand new and the IPL is just barely out of the gate, giving you no true basis for any of your claims. I'm still a little shocked I actually replied to this. Edit: floor exercise also had the right general idea. I do agree with you on a few points. The reason why I didn't take a neutral stance, and pointed at the IPL, is simply because enough people have already discussed the issues and shortcomings of the NASL. Also, they (the NASL) have been very vocal to the community about fixing their issues, while its all quiet on the front of the IPL. We have no idea whats going on with the IPL, and their future, yet every idea on the NASL. I do see that they are both trying to target the "prime time" of TV real-estate, in the PST time zone. However, their audience is a global one, and comes from many different time zones. If one of them went after the prime time of EST, that would mean they would overlap a lot less. They wouldn't be crippling themselves at all, as its just an hour or two difference in start times, and makes watching both leagues a lot more friendly. The reason why I am bringing up this issue is because both leagues are brand-new. I see the broadcasting of the IPL, since it was announced months after the NASL, and adjustments could have been made, as a direct competitive move on IGN's part, which is one reason why i point the finger at IGN btw. I did want to stray away, however, from just saying this is a problem with IGN, and only IGN can fix it. It is really up to both leagues, (if the problem is indeed big enough in the end) to do something about it. This is why I said a few times, that I wanted to remain neutral in these regards. + Show Spoiler + I often times think about how you would run a TV station, and delegate times for each "program". I would love there to be just one station that i could tune in to, that schedules everything out in a logical manner. (perhaps dividing these leagues into parts), Because what we basically have here, Is each "program" acting independently, for its own gain. This isn't a problem with a larger market, as competition breeds quality. however, with a limited market with limited growth... | ||
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Shana
Indonesia1814 Posts
On April 29 2011 13:14 hellsan631 wrote: [ I do agree with you on a few points. The reason why I didn't take a neutral stance, and pointed at the IPL, is simply because enough people have already discussed the issues and shortcomings of the NASL. Also, they (the NASL) have been very vocal to the community about fixing their issues, while its all quiet on the front of the IPL. We have no idea whats going on with the IPL, and their future, yet every idea on the NASL. Did you ever go to IPL thread? Alex responding to almost every problem posted in the thread. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=209144 | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On April 29 2011 13:04 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I think you are taking this way too many steps too far. You only need to address whether or not you think IPL scheduling their broadcasts at the same time period as NASL is good or bad for esports. You pretty much ignored any analysis on that discussion, which is the only discussion relevant to the blog, and went off on a bunch of tangents and way beyond the scope of the blog :o The blog could have been more focused itself, but you seem to have zoomed in on the passage put within spoiler tags of all places... If what you care about is who is harming esports more, then go write a blog about that. If you want to address whether or not IPL's scheduling decision is good or bad for esports, then go for it in a reply here. Nope I read it from beginning to end, it's just incredible slanted towards NASL Right from the getgo, IPL is hurting esports, rather than hurting NASL which is what his entire thread is actually talking about it. From this I inferred that NASL is ESPORTS, which I have a fundamental issue with. ESPORTS is like a beautiful and delicate flower, no one can "be" esports. If I could take it back to the 90s for one second, esports can basically be described as the subject of the hit song Two Princes by the Spin Doctors. Right now there's two princes vying for its love and affection, with IGN being the rich one with a family tree who is offering to buy esports rockets, mostly because it rhymes with pockets and fits into the song, but also to illustrate that he can buy expensive things for her and take good care of her. The other one of course professes to be more sincere and caring to make up for his lack of wealth and weak lineage. He seems to be almost chiding IPL for putting on their tournament during NASL's schedule, which happens to be 5 days a week during primetime in North America. Were they supposed to discuss the possibility of increasing the number of days per week in the Lunar Calender? Bear in mind NASL just changed their own schedule from mon to friday to something else. If we are calling dibs on days of the week, isn't this now stepping on IPL's feet? Yet nowhere in the thread do I see him reprimand NASL for this thoughtless act. He even writes "Did they really want to compete with the NASL? Maybe its even a bias I have because I feel some sort of loyalty towards the NASL, as I was there, excited, and waiting for it to launch." Does this sound like the post of a man who's true intentions are the damage wrought to esports herself? I dare say it is not, hence my original post. Had this bias gone the other way, I question how long this blog would have stayed open given all the complaining and negativity that plagued NASL threads not so long ago. You might be right in that there is a legitimate issue with two leagues running at the same time, the problem is his own self admitted overwhelming bias to protecting NASL's schedule of 5 days a week. If I were to post here and agree with all that, I'd in essence agreeing with the overwhelming bias, when as a sworn Knight of ESPORTS I can take no sides in this matter. It's not that I am for or against one league like the OP has declared himself, I'd love for them both to be awesome and succeed, he's just clearly using the "ur hurtin esports" argument to chastise IPL rather than invite any sort of real discussion on the matter. | ||
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
I think the IPL would be idiotic to not ask to compete for at least part of this time slot. If in the end it turns out IPL has a better production that people prefer at large numbers, they will "win" this timeslot and be able to push NASL out to a different time. I'm not sure how I feel from a personal perspective about NASL trying to capture such a giant period of peak watching time, but from a business perspective (if they can do it) it's a great call. It erects large barriers to entry in the US market. However, I still think there's potential for entirely different types of business models if someone can totally outdo them in production. I will say that plenty of leagues have had very good production, but I think a VOD-only league could even be successful if it had production that was as good as the video scenes in these demos from the AI bot: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=210057#1 Also things like picture-in-picture that some commentators have been using or great use of different types of video effects. Obviously there's a trade-off in that it won't really be "live", but the production is nowhere near capped out (or fully differentiated). | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On select Saturday's both UFC and Bellator are on the same exact time. Baseball has dozens of games running a day. Too much content is never a bad thing, in time the best will prevail. | ||
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MiraKul
Malaysia498 Posts
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Marradron
Netherlands1586 Posts
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BroOd
Austin10831 Posts
If they believe they are providing the better product, it makes sense for them to fight for that advantageous time slot and that viewership. Establishing a brand is about more than viewer numbers and the associated revenue. Public perception of the hierarchy of content producers is important as well, especially in the context of how these organizations will be able to fund and produce future content. For an organization like IPL, who obviously have their sights set high, taking a backseat to NASL would be actively sabotaging any plan of becoming a premier league. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
IPL is a north american tournament so it should be run at prime time hours (6pm to 9pm PST). There's nothing much else to say. I watch IPL because it's free and the production is off the charts. Also I really like hd/painuser casting. | ||
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hellsan631
United States695 Posts
Prime Time is, for the most part, 8pm - 11pm, every day (PST), or 7pm - 10pm CST/EST. This is a standard that has existed in television for a long time. Now for sporting events, they usually run during the day, from 2pm to around 7pm (usually in the NA). Now, the IPL starts right before the NASL, at 5pm, and runs for about 3-4 hours. This means, that it runs up and to the prime time, but not over it. Both leagues seem to favor starting before Prime Time broadcasting hours, at least in the NA. This may be due to the broadcast being too large to fit during prime time, but IPL (atleast) doesn't often touch those "prime time" hours. Now both of these leagues numbers pale in comparison to those of the TSL. The TSL gets around 3-4x the amount of viewers, and starts mid-day (11am PST). Now how could this be? Aren't Prime Time broadcasting hours supposed to be when a majority of will be watching tv? While this concept is important for a lot of cable programming and scheduling, It does not affect sports viewing (starcraft is a sport), because event viewing runs on different rules then does tuning into your favorite reality tv show each day. It doesn't take into account the scope of time zones of people who watch internet streams, as these cause a variance in the times which are "actually" prime time broadcasting hours. It represents a demographic which doesn't match that of people who play/watch StarCraft. Im doing a bit far out with this one in reguards to facts, but most of us don't see ourselves as a "normal" person. (somewhat referencing personality tests on TL) Prime Time for StarCraft broadcasts is a completely different concept then that of Prime Time on tv, for those reasons. There isn't a set good time to start or end a league, just as there isn't enough data on viewership to even guess at what those times might be. If you look at a recent poll on TL, 30% come from a CET timezone, 31% come from a EST/CST timezone, 14% come from GMT, and 13% come from a PST time zone. This means that there isn't a set ideal timezone to choose when selecting broadcasting times. Now i do agree that these aren't the facts, and there is more then likely a correlation between increased numbers, and a league being broadcast in the prime time. However, there isn't enough data, or know scientific studies, that can help connect the dots. Basically, we don't know at what times "Prime Time" occurs at in regards to SC Broadcasts, and data points to the fact that it might not be the same time as what can be considered prime time for TV. I also re-phrased the post, trying to make it seem a bit less biased. Again, the argument was not what league was at fault, but that there there might be a problem with leagues running at the same time. Stop avoiding the main subject, and trying to dis-hearten the argument i'm making by claiming a bias which has nothing to do with the argument itself. (this isnt NASL vs IPL, its an argument over broadcasting times!) That bias comes from the observations i've made in regards to the choices of times by each league, and when those times were chosen. It was stated to create some discussion to see who really is at fault, and entice people to answer and support their views on the main subject. | ||
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odder
United States405 Posts
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hellsan631
United States695 Posts
On April 30 2011 08:47 odder wrote: TSL occurs on the weekend, 11am PST during the weekdays would be awful for NA viewers. Yet Prime Time during the weekend remains the same. I'm not making an assumption as to what time is best to broadcast on every day, only that there is less of a correlation between whats the best broadcast times for SC and whats the best for TV. | ||
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pikey26
United States23 Posts
NASL is also the one that CAN do soemthing about this. Make their VODS free. Moment you miss a day's worth of series for whatever you lose interest. | ||
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redemption
United States112 Posts
IPL is simply healthy competition, and competition is extremely healthy for any industry - not just ESports. The only way to ensure the best possible quality and prices out of a product is to practice laissez-faire. The "invisible hand" must be allowed to determine the proper equilibrium in a free market economy without any intervention. Although there are some exceptions, meddling with this system tends to result in deadweight losses, or a loss of economic efficiency. There's a reason that the US takes its anti-trust laws very seriously. The OP is arguing that there is a problem with allowing these two leagues to run at the same time. I would argue that this is in fact beneficial to ESports, while forcing one league to concede the preferable time slot would be a detriment to this fledgling industry. The best products will naturally rise to the top while streamlining costs/prices. | ||
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