On April 20 2011 20:30 KingVietKong wrote:Using rape in a video game context is notcompletely fucking ridiculous and there'snot a reason in the worldwhy people might be justifiably offended by it.
Hm... so... I was going to go land my CC at the gold expo on metal to found out that the zerg player I was up against managed to n***** it before I could get to it. Granted, n***** is a loaded word, but we all know that the sc2 players are all white and korean anyways, so I don't see why anyone would be offended by a caster talking about one progamer, say, n*****ing a gas from a Terran player with his scouting drone. This word is being used in a different context and NOBODY should be offended by it.
Hopefully this has demonstrated to you the problem with your line of argument.
The logic behind this is stupid to an incredible degree. Whether or not people "should" be offended is not the issue, stop being morons and trying to prove that point one way or another. Hint: you're never going to do it, even with clever bold and italicizing.
The issue is that they are, and a large number of an outside audience is. It is not difficult for us to stop using it in the side of the community we present as "professional", and is in no way an unreasonable request. The choice of action is pretty fucking obvious here, especially in a place where everyone claims to want to "make esports happen" or whatever the catchphrase is this week.
On April 21 2011 22:54 Kenpachi wrote: bleh. it feels like were discussing Huckleberry Finn
Agreed. I wonder why people don't take offense to 'owned.'
do you actually wonder that?
No, I know precisely why they don't take offense but I'm also positive they would stop using the word if they were in front of a bunch of NAACP members. You can eliminate a couple obvious words like 'rape' that don't serve much of a purpose, but I'm not convinced that the current trend of becoming politically correct and bland is the best way for the game to become "mainstream" and no one has shown how it will. When people talk about professionalism, they're just preaching to the choir full of idiots.
To be honest, I don't think ESPORTS will ever be mainstream (hint: IGN is not mainstream nor is G4) and at best will be a popular niche. And you know what you're allowed to do as a niche? Be a goddamn motherfucking cocksucker because you're not trying to appeal to the Walmart's of the world. You're allowed to wear a tshirt with a coat and you're allowed to cuss and swear and BM. Everyone's in a race to be an asshole like Tony Hawk but the ultra clean image didn't improve his sport besides selling video games, and right now the fastest growing sports/niche entertainment are dominated by assholes.
Where's the uproar? Has Strikeforce issued any statements or has Thierry been removed from the team? What about Joe Rogan's rape choke? Has UFC suspended him?
If you have a moral issue with the word being used, then at least say it so we can discuss it just like we have with bitch, fag and every other offensive word ever. Don't pull out that professionalism bullshit.
that is just mindnumbingly off target. first, your implication is that only people who can be directly impacted by the word are the ones who find it offensive, which is implying that only hypersensitivity to an issue results in being offended by it. that is completely wrong--i am a dude, i have never been raped nor can i think of anyone i know who has been impacted by it, but i find it unnecessary, crass, and idiotic. empathy is a possible human emotion
this isn't a matter of professionalism, it's a matter of not being a jackass, and being a niche submarket that does not have the same requirements for professionalism as a major market sport does not grant you a right to be a jackass, especially if its at the expense of further isolating that niche from anyone else.
i don't think MMA is going to help your argument here at all, plenty of athletes say stupid things all the time, but the participants in a sport are judged by a completely different standard than the commentators of that sport, and if you can't see the difference there i can't help you.
this isn't a question of "getting away with saying these things." you can say all the hateful words you want in a sc2 cast, because in the end it's something viewed by an extremely small subset of people that has no impact on anything. the larger problem is a community so quick to excuse a culture of jackass behavior, which annoys me at best and disgusts me at worst, and it's my hope that casters try to set a better example than the community does at all times
I personally know someone that was raped. I didn't think much of the word until after that incident. Please don't use it as it's a very violent and evil crime that specifically, for the most part, is against females.
On April 22 2011 06:38 benjammin wrote: that is just mindnumbingly off target. first, your implication is that only people who can be directly impacted by the word are the ones who find it offensive, which is implying that only hypersensitivity to an issue results in being offended by it. that is completely wrong--i am a dude, i have never been raped nor can i think of anyone i know who has been impacted by it, but i find it unnecessary, crass, and idiotic. empathy is a possible human emotion
That's not the implication at all. The implication is that 'own' as a term of domination in gaming stems from the exact same place as 'rape', yet no one has seemed to notice or care.
i don't think MMA is going to help your argument here at all, plenty of athletes say stupid things all the time, but the participants in a sport are judged by a completely different standard than the commentators of that sport, and if you can't see the difference there i can't help you.
this isn't a question of "getting away with saying these things." you can say all the hateful words you want in a sc2 cast, because in the end it's something viewed by an extremely small subset of people that has no impact on anything. the larger problem is a community so quick to excuse a culture of jackass behavior, which annoys me at best and disgusts me at worst, and it's my hope that casters try to set a better example than the community does at all times
Joe Rogan is a caster and if you'll look on the sidebar right now, the most popular stream is the one run by the person who not only used rape as a meaningless, contextless word (which I don't care about) but actually described it step by step in the context of a SC2 game, which I found disgusting.
My point is that it's just a word and when it has no context, it shouldn't be treated as such. On top of that, I think the professionalism argument is completely frivolous and whether or not words like rape or fag are actually used will have little to no effect on the growth of ESPORTS.
On April 22 2011 06:38 benjammin wrote: that is just mindnumbingly off target. first, your implication is that only people who can be directly impacted by the word are the ones who find it offensive, which is implying that only hypersensitivity to an issue results in being offended by it. that is completely wrong--i am a dude, i have never been raped nor can i think of anyone i know who has been impacted by it, but i find it unnecessary, crass, and idiotic. empathy is a possible human emotion
That's not the implication at all. The implication is that 'own' as a term of domination in gaming stems from the exact same place as 'rape', yet no one has seemed to notice or care.
no it doesn't, that's why no one cares
i don't think MMA is going to help your argument here at all, plenty of athletes say stupid things all the time, but the participants in a sport are judged by a completely different standard than the commentators of that sport, and if you can't see the difference there i can't help you.
this isn't a question of "getting away with saying these things." you can say all the hateful words you want in a sc2 cast, because in the end it's something viewed by an extremely small subset of people that has no impact on anything. the larger problem is a community so quick to excuse a culture of jackass behavior, which annoys me at best and disgusts me at worst, and it's my hope that casters try to set a better example than the community does at all times
Joe Rogan is a caster and if you'll look on the sidebar right now, the most popular stream is the one run by the person who not only used rape as a meaningless, contextless word (which I don't care about) but actually described it step by step in the context of a SC2 game, which I found disgusting.
My point is that it's just a word and when it has no context, it shouldn't be treated as such. On top of that, I think the professionalism argument is completely frivolous and whether or not words like rape or fag are actually used will have little to no effect on the growth of ESPORTS.
destiny's personal user stream is vastly different than a game being broadcast for something with corporate sponsors, do you see the difference?
context is always personal, that's why people will think you are a jackass when you say something that has a different meaning to them
i would hope our community aims higher than joe rogan
Again with the sponsorship argument. The same ones who have sponsored Quake and CS for years, and have put up with this without complaint? They may not put a word on their product's box, but when their player says that kind of stuff or even worse, acts in an inappropriate way, they've never done anything. The idea that people should do things due to professionalism is like telling your kids to go to bed because the boogie man will get them. No one wants to question it, but they should because it's never had a negative effect in ESPORTS and it's certainly not holding back other niche activities. The most sponsored player right now still goes about the same way, without negative consequence to his Kingston and Bigfoot deals. What about when BW pros say they took the other player on a tour?
Context shouldn't be personal, and I know TL posters agree because when someone made a thread about a black person getting upset at "nigah" in Chinese, everyone here said the black guy was in the wrong.
On April 22 2011 07:06 Jibba wrote: Again with the sponsorship argument. The same ones who have sponsored Quake and CS for years, and have put up with this without complaint? They may not put a word on their product's box, but when their player says that kind of stuff or even worse, acts in an inappropriate way, they've never done anything. The idea that people should do things due to professionalism is like telling your kids to go to bed because the boogie man will get them. No one wants to question it, but they should because it's never had a negative effect in ESPORTS and it's certainly not holding back other niche activities.
Context shouldn't be personal, and I know TL posters agree because when someone made a thread about a black person getting upset at "nigah" in Chinese, everyone here said the black guy was in the wrong.
i can't speak for the CS community, but this did become a problem in the quake community, specifically the phrase "spawn rape" which was changed to "spawn frag" or "conversion kill" as a result, and iirc djWHEAT was a big advocate for this change but i don't want to put words in his mouth.
i don't know what you are arguing if you think context shouldn't be personal. should we all be a collective hive mind that responds to language identically?
On April 22 2011 07:23 Jibba wrote: Context should be attributed to the speaker. Demeaning women was not part of the context when Demuslim said 'rape' at Dreamhack.
Most of the people who argue against using any words associated with domination in a game of ... domination, do not understand the English language. Many words have multiple meanings. Just because in a video game, you use the word rape, murder, owned, etc. does not correlate to actually murdering another human being, or raping another individual (and rape is not only against women....how sexist of you! :: rollseyes :: ). In any event, it appears you (benjammin, and others) have a problem with the English language. I'm perfectly fine with the English language myself. Perhaps you should switch to a language which doesn't use the same word for multiple meanings.
PS: I also think there is a distinct lack of common sense in the general populace in today's world. That and society is becoming too effiminate....
On April 20 2011 20:50 thebike wrote: Wow, people are REALLY bad at understanding the point of this post.
The point of this post is to use humour to belittle all the discussion that's going on around this subject, and perhaps suggest that people are over-reacting. Or that's what I got from it.
I'm all for trying to lighten the mood, but I didn't find the tone of this post did that. If people put forward their opinion either for or against using certain words then they should.
I'm just frustrated that it seems these days people can't express an opinion around here without being insulted or ridiculed.
Seems your sarcasm detector is completely broken.
Try reading his post again, ESPECIALLY the last sentence (reading only the bolded words)....
If you find it embarrassing to use the word in that context in front of a non-gamer (specifically a female) then you shouldn't be using it at all.
Personally I don't like the word being used to describe one player dominating another. Its use isn't the result of 'rape' being a good word to use, it's the result of gaming being a boys only club with nobody to hold them accountable.
People say the meaning has changed now, but it really hasn't.
There is another thread on this topic? Don't you all know that every time a gamer says rape, an e-sports fairy dies? The only way SC2 will ever go mainstream is with a properly sanitized vocabulary!
EPT
