EPTBeing hyped about SC2... (or not) - Page 2
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
On April 20 2011 06:09 iNfeRnaL wrote: Actually you are so fucking right. I know that better than you might believe, a game needs time. It's like a good wine in that regard. The problem is, Blizzard is NOT giving SC2 time. Each 2 weeks there's a new fucking patch throwing the current balance off. No time for the players to evolve and maybe create solutions to the "imbalances" Instead Blizzard rather listens to random crying etc. And don't you forget there's still HotS and LotV to completely roll the balance dice again... Yes, it needs time. But before LotV is out we cannot even hope for that... It's being given time, believe me. It'll get more time and attention than most random RTSes could even dream of. Time doesn't make a game, it just helps. I can complain about tournaments and casts for SC2 games being as boring as I want. Mondi and MC are pretty much the only players who look at all interesting to me, and mondi got knocked out by... I don't even know what it was, but it was just gross to watch. Not every game can be BW, and that includes SC2. If SC2 has the potential to become a legitimately entertaining spectator sport (it honestly isn't right now, I get so bored watching sc2 games), then it'll have to do so before SC3 or whatever new RTS Blizzard decides to switch over to when it's bored of SC2. SC2 won't have money forever to back up its interest. Right now people basically watch SC2 because 'WOW LOOK AT ALL THE MONEY AND TOURNAMENTS IN THIS!" (What did BW have when it came out? Maybe a few Blizzard run "have a t shirt and 50 bucks" tournaments, + the excitement of an online ladder.) What really interests me right now is if BW will outlast SC2's lifespan. Right now BW is doing pretty decent, considering, but if BW dies you can pretty much say good-bye to any hope of SC2 outlasting SC3 (WarCraft IV?) and good-bye to revolutions and tradition in general. I don't really think I can follow a scene which is fickle with games that are replaced every 5 years. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
And we are not talking of White-Ra vs Bisu here. MC was really bad man. I know he was pro but still... 1-9 record :/ Also i don't understand why so many players think that White-Ra doesn't practice and is just naturally gifted. Yea of course he is good but he also trains a LOT. In broodwar he was one of the most dedicated foreigners and probably the only guy who deserved to be called pro outside of Korea / China because all the others guys were slackers or just plain bad compared to him. Remember gameitoss on iccup ? That was an epic account. So many games every season, always sick match lists vs top Kors and high ranks. So no sorry i'm not surprised that he can almost beat MC in Sc2. He trains a lot, he is good, he has a lot of experience and Sc2 mechanics are easier than in bw. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On April 20 2011 06:07 Xeris wrote: there were no gods of BW until 2001-2002 ... Grrr was really big but he wasn't like a "god" , SC2 has been out <1 year now. Give it time :p There weren't 100k tournaments announced before the game was released either | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On April 20 2011 06:33 Boblion wrote: I'm not sure that MC was that much better than White-Ra at bw. And no it shouldn't be a rolfstomp because mechanics matter less in PvP than in the other match ups. PvP in bw has a LOT of mind games and an inferior player can mind fuck the best pros. See PJ vs Bisu at WCG for example ( amazing one gate expo ). And we are not talking of White-Ra vs Bisu here. MC was really bad man. I know he was pro but still... 1-9 record :/ Also i don't understand why so many players think that White-Ra doesn't practice and is just naturally gifted. Yea of course he is good but he also trains a LOT. In broodwar he was one of the most dedicated foreigners and probably the only guy who deserved to be called pro outside of Korea / China because all the others guys were slackers or just plain bad compared to him. Remember gameitoss on iccup ? That was an epic account. So many games every season, always sick match lists vs top Kors and high ranks. So no sorry i'm not surprised that he can almost beat MC in Sc2. He trains a lot, he is good, he has a lot of experience and Sc2 mechanics are easier than in bw. Take a look at Iron's Minor league record, he was by no means bad. (Edit: Let me clarify, yes he was bad compared to Bisu,Flash,JD - but he was still like top50-100 to play that game, if that is bad in your opinion, so be it.) In fact he 4-0'ed Ra when they met at icc. (Obv Iron was smurfing.) I'm not saying Ra is naturally gifted, he's just really good at creating strategies (in general, the ukrainians are total professionals and work nicely together, one of the reasons why they're so strong) - but right now - considering he has a work as well, he is definitely not playing as much as MC. Sure he still plays a lot. But I'm quite sure MC plays twice as much against better opponents. And yes, I know Gameitoss, rofl, nobody played more in BW than White-Ra, I don't know if he already had a job back then... if so... when the fuck does he sleep?!??! And by saying you are not surprised by W-ra being that good... do you mean now or before GSL WC? Would you have predicted that? If yes, congratz - you're a farseer. =P | ||
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HwangjaeTerran
Finland5967 Posts
But if there is no one exciting when he's done I'm done with the competitive SC2, for the reasons you listed. I think "fixes" could be made that still wouldn't make SC2 too much like BW. If they were too much alike, both games would suffer in my opinion. You could raise the skillcap without changing the current macro mechanics and so on... | ||
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Rotodyne
United States2263 Posts
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imPERSONater
United States1324 Posts
I think maps will get bigger, multi-tasking will matter more and the greats will find ways to pull ahead. People just don't know how to dominate yet! | ||
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mucker
United States1120 Posts
Just because there isn't that much skill separation now doesn't mean there can't and won't be in the future. | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On April 20 2011 06:41 StarStruck wrote: Lots of the pro's who switched from BW to SC2 were bad at BW, lol. That is a given. Personalities in SC2? Shit, we got tons of them on the international side. Sure, there really isn't any buildup whatsoever in the Korean scene, but the pastures are greener on the International side. Look at our community, posters jump on anything and everything. It's kind of ridiculous. I expect the patch updates to subside a bit soon. The active bw players who switched to sc2 (mainly MVP and Iron) were by no means bad. They didn't achieve much, sure, but they could destroy most foreigners with ease and rearely ever lose to the few who were b-team material (like ret and idra). Calling them bad is a gross exaggeration. | ||
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erin[go]bragh
United States815 Posts
Macro is too easy, as such there are no "macro players" i.e "omg how did BeSt loose his entire army and already has another one sitting at his rally!" because everyone is a macro player. There are no micro players i.e "omg mundang toss! perfect storrrrrms!" because you no longer need to clone anything. IMO this contributes to the "no good player personalities" as you mentioned because theres very few ways for players to identify themselves. Units are unexciting. Seeing a Colossus melt a million Hydras was cool the first 2 times, but then it gets old. This has been beaten to death, but its a terrible replacement for the Reaver. There is also nothing exciting about seeing two 200/200 armies clash, have the players remacro back to 200/200, and clash again. Not all games turn out this way, but most do. Unit AI pathing is something I'm surprised I haven't seen mentioned more. As far as I'm concerned, it's SC2's biggest turn off. What I mean is, when you saw a Zerg army pour across a map, You looked at that mini-map and said "Holy SHIT thats a lot of dots!" Edit: ![[image loading]](http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/906/rovjulyrockay4.gif) When a Protoss Zealot/Goon force charged a Tank line, the observer is darting all over the battlefield as lots spread out and cut into the line. In SC2, it doesnt matter if you have 5 units or 500. Everything just travels in a huge fucking ball. And I find it all very unepic. Another thing I'm surprised I haven't seen complained about more. Sounds! Maybe its because I've listened to so much BW commentary in a language I can't understand, but I use a lot of audio clues to know whats happening in game. You KNOW when a group of marines stim, and it sounds bad ass. "PSHHHH AHH THATS THE STUFF" What do you get in SC2? A weak little sound that sounds like a midget fart. Yawn. Science Vessels are a very important unit in TvZ. When one dies, it blows up in fabulous fashion and with a loud, distinguishable sound, so you know "oh shit he lost an expensive unit!" In SC2, someone could kill 5 Ravens and you'd hardly notice throughout the rest of the cluster fuck going on. The list goes on with epic sound queues being replaced by wussy ones. All the way from Goons dying (dont even get me STARTED on how awesome blue goo was to know how bad that attack really went) to the Archons attack sound (BEEFY in BW, dwarf slap in SC2.) I could go on, but I hate being such a downer. Bottom line is, it's nice that SC2 is easier to play because it isn't so mechanically demanding. But for me anyway, it fails as a spectator sport. Compared to watching BW, getting an adrenaline rush watching SC2 is as hard as getting a hard on watching grass grow. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On April 20 2011 06:43 iNfeRnaL wrote: Take a look at Iron's Minor league record, he was by no means bad. (Edit: Let me clarify, yes he was bad compared to Bisu,Flash,JD - but he was still like top50-100 to play that game, if that is bad in your opinion, so be it.) In fact he 4-0'ed Ra when they met at icc. (Obv Iron was smurfing.) I'm not saying Ra is naturally gifted, he's just really good at creating strategies (in general, the ukrainians are total professionals and work nicely together, one of the reasons why they're so strong) - but right now - considering he has a work as well, he is definitely not playing as much as MC. Sure he still plays a lot. But I'm quite sure MC plays twice as much against better opponents. And yes, I know Gameitoss, rofl, nobody played more in BW than White-Ra, I don't know if he already had a job back then... if so... when the fuck does he sleep?!??! And by saying you are not surprised by W-ra being that good... do you mean now or before GSL WC? Would you have predicted that? If yes, congratz - you're a farseer. =P Ah yea thanks for the clarification, didn't know they met on Iccup. Kinda overreacted when i called him bad too, you are right his dreamleague record is very good. Just wanted to say that the wasn't a top pro. More like a bad A teamer / Solid B teamer. Still think that White-Ra could have pulled an upset in bw especially if it was some sort of tournament like WCG because he seems kinda immune to stress and has lot of knowledge about the outdated map pool. Oh well maybe i just like himm too much, MC wasn't good enough to get top 3 Korea WCG anyway so it is more like a fantasy match up :p But man that PJ vs Bisu game was amazing... If PJ can take a game of Bisu, White-Ra on a very good day can beat MC in a bo3. Oh and about GSL WC well i started to follow Sc2 again just after the games ( took a small hiatus in December ) so i can't say that i had predicted the outcome of the game. But if i had to pick one foreign player to beat MC it would have been a P for sure and White-Ra is one of the very best foreign P. MC would have been the favourite though, i will give you that  But upsets in bw happen quite often and it is even more true for Sc2 ! | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On April 20 2011 06:57 erin[go]bragh wrote: It's nice that SC2 is more accessible than BW was, but from a spectator point of view, IMO as of now it makes a pretty bad esport. Macro is too easy, as such there are no "macro players" i.e "omg how did BeSt loose his entire army and already has another one sitting at his rally!" because everyone is a macro player. There are no micro players i.e "omg mundang toss! perfect storrrrrms!" because you no longer need to clone anything. IMO this contributes to the "no good player personalities" as you mentioned because theres very few ways for players to identify themselves. Units are unexciting. Seeing a Colossus melt a million Hydras was cool the first 2 times, but then it gets old. This has been beaten to death, but its a terrible replacement for the Reaver. There is also nothing exciting about seeing two 200/200 armies clash, have the players remacro back to 200/200, and clash again. Not all games turn out this way, but most do. Unit AI pathing is something I'm surprised I haven't seen mentioned more. As far as I'm concerned, it's SC2's biggest turn off. What I mean is, when you saw a Zerg army pour across a map, You looked at that mini-map and said "Holy SHIT thats a lot of dots!" Edit: When a Protoss Zealot/Goon force charged a Tank line, the observer is darting all over the battlefield as lots spread out and cut into the line. In SC2, it doesnt matter if you have 5 units or 500. Everything just travels in a huge fucking ball. And I find it all very unepic. Another thing I'm surprised I haven't seen complained about more. Sounds! Maybe its because I've listened to so much BW commentary in a language I can't understand, but I use a lot of audio clues to know whats happening in game. You KNOW when a group of marines stim, and it sounds bad ass. "PSHHHH AHH THATS THE STUFF" What do you get in SC2? A weak little sound that sounds like a midget fart. Yawn. Science Vessels are a very important unit in TvZ. When one does, it blows up in fabulous fashion and with a loud, distinguishable sound, so you know "oh shit he lost an expensive unit!" In SC2, someone could kill 5 Ravens and you'd hardly notice throughout the rest of the cluster fuck going on. The list goes on with epic sound queues being replaced by wussy ones. All the way from Goons dying (dont even get me STARTED on how awesome blue goo was to know how bad that attack really went) to the Archons attack sound (BEEFY in BW, dwarf slap in SC2.) I could go on, but I hate being such a downer. Bottom line is, it's nice that SC2 is easier to play because it isn't so mechanically demanding. But for me anyway, it fails as a spectator sport. Compared to watching BW, getting an adrenaline rush watching SC2 is as hard as getting a hard on watching grass grow. Very true about the sounds. Haven't thought about that yet but you're definitely right. | ||
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Smurphy
United States374 Posts
On April 20 2011 06:57 erin[go]bragh wrote: It's nice that SC2 is more accessible than BW was, but from a spectator point of view, IMO as of now it makes a pretty bad esport. Macro is too easy, as such there are no "macro players" i.e "omg how did BeSt loose his entire army and already has another one sitting at his rally!" because everyone is a macro player. There are no micro players i.e "omg mundang toss! perfect storrrrrms!" because you no longer need to clone anything. IMO this contributes to the "no good player personalities" as you mentioned because theres very few ways for players to identify themselves. Units are unexciting. Seeing a Colossus melt a million Hydras was cool the first 2 times, but then it gets old. This has been beaten to death, but its a terrible replacement for the Reaver. There is also nothing exciting about seeing two 200/200 armies clash, have the players remacro back to 200/200, and clash again. Not all games turn out this way, but most do. Unit AI pathing is something I'm surprised I haven't seen mentioned more. As far as I'm concerned, it's SC2's biggest turn off. What I mean is, when you saw a Zerg army pour across a map, You looked at that mini-map and said "Holy SHIT thats a lot of dots!" Edit: When a Protoss Zealot/Goon force charged a Tank line, the observer is darting all over the battlefield as lots spread out and cut into the line. In SC2, it doesnt matter if you have 5 units or 500. Everything just travels in a huge fucking ball. And I find it all very unepic. Another thing I'm surprised I haven't seen complained about more. Sounds! Maybe its because I've listened to so much BW commentary in a language I can't understand, but I use a lot of audio clues to know whats happening in game. You KNOW when a group of marines stim, and it sounds bad ass. "PSHHHH AHH THATS THE STUFF" What do you get in SC2? A weak little sound that sounds like a midget fart. Yawn. Science Vessels are a very important unit in TvZ. When one dies, it blows up in fabulous fashion and with a loud, distinguishable sound, so you know "oh shit he lost an expensive unit!" In SC2, someone could kill 5 Ravens and you'd hardly notice throughout the rest of the cluster fuck going on. The list goes on with epic sound queues being replaced by wussy ones. All the way from Goons dying (dont even get me STARTED on how awesome blue goo was to know how bad that attack really went) to the Archons attack sound (BEEFY in BW, dwarf slap in SC2.) I could go on, but I hate being such a downer. Bottom line is, it's nice that SC2 is easier to play because it isn't so mechanically demanding. But for me anyway, it fails as a spectator sport. Compared to watching BW, getting an adrenaline rush watching SC2 is as hard as getting a hard on watching grass grow. I think your memory of Broodwar games is over-nostalgic, romanticized and heavily biased towards the games you enjoy and you are ignoring the games you did not enjoy as much. I think your memory of SC2 games is similarly tilted the other directions. I've seen Brood War games that play out in the manner you describe SC2 games. I've seen SC2 games that play out in the manner you describe BW games. I do, however, agree that BW gives a much better sense of the units dying and having more epic feeling battles. In SC2 units just evaporate. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On the other hand they do have T-ara currently, so thats a +1 for SC2. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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Smurphy
United States374 Posts
On April 20 2011 07:28 infinity2k9 wrote: You can't just dismiss peoples opinions with 'nostalgia'. We continue to watch pro BW right now, and it continues to evolve and surprise us... this isn't based from memories. This is happening now. Thank you taking my post to extremes and boiling it down meaninglessness. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On April 20 2011 07:59 darmousseh wrote: I actually feel the opposite, I was quite disappointed initially with sc2, but it's getting better all the time. The macro mechanics are there to seperate good players from bad, but I don't think macro is everything. Anyone can just make workers and bases, and I feel like that's how it should be. What should separate the pros is their micro, decision making, positioning, scouting, dropping, and harassing. In a sense it's similar to golf. Golf is not that hard to learn and most people can become scratch golfers if they try. The difference between a pro and an amateur might be 2 missed putts. SC2 in fact seems to punish mis microing significantly more than bw so the best players aren't those that make the best decisions, but those that don't falter at all in their macro and unit control. Strategies come and go and strategical players will win some matches, but in the end, those that make 0 mistakes will win. SC2 is like, imagine if everyone in BW knew how to macro decently. I think it's a good thing because it means less bonjwas and more competition. At the same time, we can see that a small group of players is above the rest, but nothing like BW and as a spectator, that is exciting. No one wants to see one player dominate all the time. Many people enjoyed Nada / Savior / Oov / Flash eras. Same thing with sports. Basketball without Jordan ? Tennis Without Fed or Nadal ? Bonjwas make the game more exciting especially because you know that one day they will fall. That's Savior vs Bisu is one of the most memorable match of all time. | ||
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