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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Wasn't sure whether to put this in SC2 General or not, so I just made a blog about it which also has the big advantage that I do not need to put so much effort into my writeup.
Also this kind of collides with the other big SC2 general topic, but I still wanted to get rid of my thoughts that just hit my mind! =)
Anyway, I'll hit the topic quite straight:
I've played a LOT of SC2 - and thanks to TSL - now watched a lot of SC2 as well.
Despite my earlier claims that SC2 is "bad to watch" which, to be fair was pretty much a bold statement without much explanation as for the why.
And I guess that's what I've found out for myself now.
In fact SC2 isn't neccesarily bad to watch, but the only two "great players" (I'll give you a def of what great players are to me, later.) we have are mvp and MC.
While both of those are fucking great, especially MC has a great personality, I doubt anyone can disagree with that because he's the kind of player that you either love or hate.
There's no "in between". That makes up for a great climax shall he be facing another great personality.
Unfortunately IMO MvP does not fit this description.
Yeah he's the best Terran and all, but who the fuck is the Person behind those 3 letters?
Quite sure nobody really knows a lot about him as a person.
Even if we have a MvP vs MC, ya nice - probably the best SC2 we can get to watch right now BUT... would I be hyped about it? Well, to a certain degree, sure.
But if I compare this to MSL Group D that's going on soon...
LOL?????????????
Even Bisu vs Sea gives me more goosebumps than that. And to be fair and square that is the least exciting matchup of the group. Double LOL.
SC2 simply lacks strong personalities.
The biggest problem I see is creating new strong personalities in SC2.
Will there ever be a Jaedong-esque revolution (if you don't think he did one, check out how ZvP in BW was played 4 years ago and laugh.) going on for Zerg in SC2?
Might be, but even if it will probably be less amazing than what JD did.
Why?
Because JD's "revolution" was based on so much personal SKILL that it just left people in awe.
Sure, you can have 450 apm in SC2 and be really good - but you still would not be so much better than everyone else (playing Zerg) than a Jaedong is (or was, not sure bout that atm).
Why do people love Jaedong for example?
Because he's fucking awesome and has tons and tons and tons of skill.
He has played so many games that left you speechless just because of the things he could pull of that others couldn't.
Same could be applied to Flash and Bisu (even tho Bisu is liked for his looks too, lol), those two have just SHOWED how much better than everyone else they are - in EVERY aspect of a game that matters - sheer dextery that is their speed, decision making (aka game sense), precision, stamina, fighting spirit, multitasking ...
Now compare this to MvP or MC?
Yes they're better than the rest. But it's close. Much too close if you consider how good those actually are.
Yes, I know BW had a much longer time to grow those kind of players, but you need to keep in mind that going into SC2 we had lots, lots of former WC3 / BW Progamers going at this with the right mindset from the get go, we were in general approaching the game a lot more professional than anyone would've when BW came out.
But seriously, while I like the fact that "we" can "beat" the Koreans in SC2... think of the flipside...
Like - sorry Aleks if you shall read this - see how MC (the best Protoss so far.) got almost beaten by White-Ra who hardly practices as much as other great players.
While I do admit that White-Ra is a fucking genius and REALLY smart + experienced and I personally love to watch him (he's one of those personalities btw, old but gold, always nice etc.[IdrA is one too, just the opposite, lol]) - can you guys, atleast those of you who played BW seriously watch Ra win and say "ok now this is totally fair and deserved?".
Personally, while this might seem "elitish" or snobby or whatever, I cannot, because I know MC's (MBC_IrOn) mechanics from Broodwar - and if I compare those to White-Ra's, in my opinion, MC should be able to roflstop Ra only for those.
Yes, I know SC2 is a new game, different game, there's "OTHER" things that matter.
Well, not really. It's not other things that matter.
It's just much much much LESS things that actually matter.
Macro itself could make you untouchable compared to a lesser player in BW, even if the lesser player would micro his heart out he could not beat the other guy simply because of the fact that one unit won't beat two no matter how hard it tries.
Obviously this is also the case for SC2.
Just that a fucking 5 year old can do the SC2 Macro.
wzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. That's your protoss macro.
5zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. That's your Zerg macro.
5aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmm6mmmmmmmvvvvvvvv. That's your Terran macro.
Everyone can do this bullshit, really.
Sure, a really good player will forget inject, boost, mule or whatever less often than a bad player, that still kind of makes a difference.
Or does it? Mule's can be stacked (WTF blizzard???? What were you even thinking when you did this? Cooldown ability pls?), CB can be abused on gateways (+ you won't be making a lot of eco after 9 min into the game anymore as P anyway) and you can even stack larva so it doesn't matter if you forgot 2 injects during a fight if you didn't before...
Fact is, Blizzard tried to sell us those new macro mechancis a comparison to what we lost, but what we lost cannot be replaced.
There's just too few "skillfactors" in this game.
Without those, you will have less "heroes" in the game.
Personally, I don't know how you feel about this, but a game really needs those heroes.
That's what still makes me all warm and fuzzy about watching BW, that's what gets my blood pumping, what excites me about it.
Hell, I'm more pumped for MSL group D than for any recent SC2 tourney.
That's a clash of gods going on right there.
And we don't even have a god in SC2 yet, even tho MC keeps claiming to be God Protoss, sorry, there won't ever be one. But he's as close to that as SC2 will allow him to.
I just pray that Blizzard will give us some more exciting to pull off in the add-ons.
Because that's the biggest mistake they did so far.
They made "awesome units" that awesomely kill other units etc blabla and thought that way it'll be exciting, in theory reapers, colos etc had a lot of excitement potential... in reality it's just not there because its fucking easy to actually do.
 
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8751 Posts
i really think some gods can emerge! just wait some more time! 2 more years :D
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2 more years until the iloveoov of SC2 shows up?
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I generally agree with that it doesnt feel as epic yet, but im willing to wait a few years and see how it turns out, its just too hard to predict what the game will be like later with all the map changes leaning towards larger rush distances and more expensions etc, the game is changing very fast and i dont think you can speculate how it will end up.
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SC and BW had very little "revolutions" coming when it first began, you have to start off with figuring out every unit's full potential. A revolution is not quite the "oh look a new build order that countered this old one". In my eyes a revolution is one that changes the entire match up/game ie: Julyzerg's muta micro.
This will emerge eventually but it will take a while like you said remember what Jaedong did 4 years ago or so? That took quite a while for that to materialize.
I know people hate this, but give it time.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On April 20 2011 06:00 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
i really think some gods can emerge! just wait some more time! 2 more years :D
Will it be you? =P
And why would you need 2 years... don't chill so much! <3
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there were no gods of BW until 2001-2002 ... Grrr was really big but he wasn't like a "god" , SC2 has been out <1 year now. Give it time :p
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Yeah it's gonna take time, but I share your concern. I'm most worried that we haven't seen all that much in crazy tactical tricks that seem awesome. The 2 that I can think of recently would be Kas's (I think) Reaper that stayed alive all game and Sjow's uber banshees vs HuK, both were pretty exciting to see. I know it's been said ad nauseum, but we need more stuff like spider mines, in battle drop-play like you saw with reavers, or battles where you hold your breath as tanks siege up. I feel like it's when players win games using those tactics we elevate them to higher tiers in our minds. It's not even that it has to be super hard to do overall so long as there's the potential for someone to do it better than anyone else like MKP marine split.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On April 20 2011 06:05 Kralic wrote:
SC and BW had very little "revolutions" coming when it first began, you have to start off with figuring out every unit's full potential. A revolution is not quite the "oh look a new build order that countered this old one". In my eyes a revolution is one that changes the entire match up/game ie: Julyzerg's muta micro.
This will emerge eventually but it will take a while like you said remember what Jaedong did 4 years ago or so? That took quite a while for that to materialize.
I know people hate this, but give it time.
Actually you are so fucking right.
I know that better than you might believe, a game needs time.
It's like a good wine in that regard.
The problem is, Blizzard is NOT giving SC2 time.
Each 2 weeks there's a new fucking patch throwing the current balance off.
No time for the players to evolve and maybe create solutions to the "imbalances"
Instead Blizzard rather listens to random crying etc.
And don't you forget there's still HotS and LotV to completely roll the balance dice again...
Yes, it needs time.
But before LotV is out we cannot even hope for that...
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On April 20 2011 06:06 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 06:00 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
i really think some gods can emerge! just wait some more time! 2 more years :D Will it be you? =P And why would you need 2 years... don't chill so much! <3
Because there can't be a revolution when there isn't any set in stone strategy that is "proven true by long periods of success" to revolt against.
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iNfeRnaL the first SC2 bonwja
heard it here first folks
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As I actually have not played any sc2, I have watched a few games from GSL/MLG, etc (live stream of course). Anyway, I find that I lose interest in some of the games after a while because of similar things infernal is mentioning, i.e. consistency. It seems like no matter how "good" you may be, someone will do some weird random scv all in ( I know this has been cut back a bit due to new maps, etc) and just win, then lose the proceeding game to X other random player. There are some very interesting and entertaining games produced from this game, but it still seems like there's no way to push the boundaries of the skill ceiling.
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On April 20 2011 06:09 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 06:05 Kralic wrote:
SC and BW had very little "revolutions" coming when it first began, you have to start off with figuring out every unit's full potential. A revolution is not quite the "oh look a new build order that countered this old one". In my eyes a revolution is one that changes the entire match up/game ie: Julyzerg's muta micro.
This will emerge eventually but it will take a while like you said remember what Jaedong did 4 years ago or so? That took quite a while for that to materialize.
I know people hate this, but give it time. Actually you are so fucking right. I know that better than you might believe, a game needs time. It's like a good wine in that regard. The problem is, Blizzard is NOT giving SC2 time. Each 2 weeks there's a new fucking patch throwing the current balance off. No time for the players to evolve and maybe create solutions to the "imbalances" Instead Blizzard rather listens to random crying etc. And don't you forget there's still HotS and LotV to completely roll the balance dice again... Yes, it needs time. But before LotV is out we cannot even hope for that...
Yes I will agree on the fact some of the snap balance changes Blizzard has been doing on some of the patches has not helped at all. Fazing was a pretty cool trick but was taken out really fast.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
On April 20 2011 06:07 Xeris wrote:
there were no gods of BW until 2001-2002 ... Grrr was really big but he wasn't like a "god" , SC2 has been out <1 year now. Give it time :p
The difference is Grrr was a 80 apm newbie with no real mechanics that happened to have the strategical genius and micro that made him dominate his respective time. Edit: Not meaning to insult Grrr, the term "newb" is maybe a little offensive, but that's what he would now be with the mechanics he had back then. 
BW was started from the scratch.
We had no pro teams, professional scene, weekly tournaments and people who already went into the game with years and years of practicing their dextery, speed and even had a professional mindset about the game.
You can not compare the start of BW to the start of SC2.
As a "leader" of the community (which you are in my opinion) you should know that, shouldn't you? 
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On April 20 2011 06:09 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 06:05 Kralic wrote:
SC and BW had very little "revolutions" coming when it first began, you have to start off with figuring out every unit's full potential. A revolution is not quite the "oh look a new build order that countered this old one". In my eyes a revolution is one that changes the entire match up/game ie: Julyzerg's muta micro.
This will emerge eventually but it will take a while like you said remember what Jaedong did 4 years ago or so? That took quite a while for that to materialize.
I know people hate this, but give it time. Actually you are so fucking right. I know that better than you might believe, a game needs time. It's like a good wine in that regard. The problem is, Blizzard is NOT giving SC2 time. Each 2 weeks there's a new fucking patch throwing the current balance off. No time for the players to evolve and maybe create solutions to the "imbalances" Instead Blizzard rather listens to random crying etc. And don't you forget there's still HotS and LotV to completely roll the balance dice again... Yes, it needs time. But before LotV is out we cannot even hope for that...
Well I just hope Blizzard realizes this. Right now the most important thing isn't to create perfect 50% balance, but instead to guide the balance towards something where there's interesting match-ups and relationships between units. Like personally, even when Terran was 'OP' I wanted Blizzard to buff Seeker Missiles because they should be a more core part of T's match-ups since they have the potential later on to result in awesome tactical feats. Same with other things. I'd love to see something like a stronger immortal/colossi (even though they are already really good units) that was way slower and had way less HP so it made sense to only really fly them around in warp prisms. I was really disappointed to see the FG projectile rolled back (even as a Zerg player and even knowing it was a huge nerf). Hell, bring back the insane tank damage, but increase their siege time and give other races more options to deal with them. Anything that promotes positional or tactical play, even if it imbalances the game in the short term, is alright in my book. I can see holding off on this stuff until HotS because the game is already incredibly competitive, but hopefully Blizzard realizes that HotS/LotV are their chance to put stuff like this in and balance it out before disrupting the game.
edit... Fazing was also cool, but since the other races really had no way to deal or punish it it was kinda stupid. It's like blink micro, it seems cool at first and sorta is, but overall it just makes a unit flat out stronger rather than something that's actually cool where it's only stronger if you do it better than your opponent does at handling it (like spider mines or dropping reavers).
There's adding execution/micro in a way that pits the player vs the system (like fazing) which is bad imo. Then there's adding execution/micro in a way that pits the player vs the other player (marine splits, tank crawling, reaver dropping, spider mines) and that's what we want a LOT more of.
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I'm certain in 5 years sc2 will have pro's playing at the skill level of BW pros. There's still so much players haven't tried yet in sc2.
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/signed.
And this, my darling favorite nerd is why you don't see me in Bnet at all anymore. RIP good times. 
(There was a post on positional advantages, game flow and similar stuff somewhere a few days ago, that's exactly my point of view on the issue. Best example was Dark Swarn vs Fungal Growth.
Dark Swam = OMG FUCK NEED TO MOVE MICRO GOGOGO
Fungal = Oh. Erh. Fuck. Guess I need to split more next time.)
Edit: This one.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=213083
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On April 20 2011 06:13 iNfeRnaL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2011 06:07 Xeris wrote:
there were no gods of BW until 2001-2002 ... Grrr was really big but he wasn't like a "god" , SC2 has been out <1 year now. Give it time :p The difference is Grrr was a 80 apm newbie with no real mechanics that happened to have the strategical genius and micro that made him dominate his respective time. Edit: Not meaning to insult Grrr, the term "newb" is maybe a little offensive, but that's what he would now be with the mechanics he had back then. BW was started from the scratch. We had no pro teams, professional scene, weekly tournaments and people who already went into the game with years and years of practicing their dextery, speed and even had a professional mindset about the game. You can not compare the start of BW to the start of SC2. As a "leader" of the community (which you are in my opinion) you should know that, shouldn't you?
I agree with infernal for the most part, SC2 and BW had very different childhoods. BW was slow progressive and took time, SC2 is already 18 years old and trying to run for president. The people going into SC2 already had the game half figured out, they knew how to practice, mechanically behave, and where to focus their attention. Even with a huge head start SC2 can progress still right? Not exactly, as infernal mentioned, blizzard is a babysitter that is a pure pushover. When every the little baby cries, Blizzard runs to assuage the child who seems to shriek "imbalance" all too often. With constant patching and a lack of "sit back and watch" approach, the game will never properly develop. Blizzard seems to be forcing development of SC2, and its hurting it more than anything.
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I guess fazing was a bad example for what it was.
TSL3 Spoiler!!!!
+ Show Spoiler +Mondi showed us some interesting things in the ZvP match up with using roaches for as long as you can get away with it even if the Protoss is getting air units. (He didn't win every game with it but he did do pretty well with it and opens up another path in a match up).
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Nice blog! Very good points to be made.
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EPT
