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Before I start this off, I would just like to point out that I'm a protoss.
I hear so many complaints about warpgates, it's too powerful, it's ridiculous, it's annoying etc.
I had an idea, that I think, personally, is pretty good. And I wanted to share it with you, the community.
What if, you were not able to warp in to a pylon unless it was a certain distance from your nexus until the 15 minute mark? For example, you would be able to warp in fine in the middle of a map, but a pylon inside a player's base or natural would be useless for warp in until the 15 minute mark? This, in my opinion, would fix PvP and the 4 warpgate fest that it is, it would also make 4 and 6 gate pushes in PvZ way easier for the zerg to defend.
in essence, warp gates would NOT rob defender's advantage anymore until a certain point in the game where robbing that advantage would not be too powerful anymore.
so, comment?
 
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6gate is easy to defend :|
The Zergs who lose to this push are lower level. That's their problem. It's a neat way to fix pvp I suppose, but proxy 2gate and canon is still a dominant strat. I don't really like the idea of restrictions on warpgates though because in those awkward base trades this could cause issues.
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If you couldnt warp in units until the 15 minute mark, once the 4 gate push made it into your base, you wouldnt be able to defend it. You would have no units attacking from the inside out. It was a good idea, but I feel it really screws the toss defender over.
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well no 6wg is not easy to stop as zerg, i mean there are some styles that do well vs it like the spanishiwa thing and also the burrow speed or burrow claws style. But i would really love that for pvp, but actually when people 4wg me i just lol because i win most of those now so if the game goes on longer then i am far ahead.
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On April 16 2011 15:56 NobledBlood wrote:
If you couldnt warp in units until the 15 minute mark, once the 4 gate push made it into your base, you wouldnt be able to defend it. You would have no units attacking from the inside out. It was a good idea, but I feel it really screws the toss defender over.
I didn't say you couldnt warp in, im saying you cant warp in you're opponent's base/natural
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The problem I see is that it tries to say that Warpgates are fundamentally unbalanced. Honestly, you can get complaints about any unit or tactic if you try hard enough - earlier today there was a thread on how Fungal Growth was imba. Although it may fix PvP, there are probably better ways to do so. Just as an example, it may turn out that FFE against Protoss works extremely well due to Gateway units being bad against Cannons. Although this probably isn't true, it's better to look for solutions within the game then try and change it unless there exists no solution.
That being said, wouldn't it be a lot less complicated to simply delay Warp Gate tech an extra 150 seconds, or make it available from a higher tech building? This adds extra complication to the game, where it can be achieved by simple variable tweaking.
Note though that I'm not saying it's a terrible idea - I actually thought about something similar a while back. These objections I came up with are mostly the same ones I thought up when I was initially planning my original idea.
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The problem with changing warpgate timings is the handful of Timing pushes the other two races have that depend on WG tech.
PvP will be broken for a while. And the reason is as follows : In Sc2, every unit is amazing. So even a small quantity of units can make you lose a game, unlikely in Star 1, where 2marines couldn't kill your base in 20seconds. This game is a lot faster due to how strong every unit is. which is awful and good at the same time.
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I've always thought it would be cool to change the warp in time based on distance from the actual warpgate.
For example they would instantly warp in if you did it right next to the gate, but if you did it at their base it would take much longer.
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it's not intuitive and it's to big. It's also a really old idea people suggest this all the time
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Canada11349 Posts
Expanding on KMARTRULES idea
I wonder if the other way you could do it is simply the further you are from your nexus, the longer it takes to warp in- to the point where it could be debilitating- however, expansions would help the warp gates in the mid to late game- it might even be building a forward nexus. But maybe not.
What would probably happen, is people would find the optimal distance nexus to forward pylons to warp in and generally warp in there. It would at least make the toss's reinforcement line a little further away on larger maps.
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How bout you can't warp in units where your pylon's power overlaps with an enemy's pylon power?
This way defending a 4gate by walling off would be much more viable, as they couldn't warp onto the high ground.
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On April 16 2011 15:54 Vlare wrote:
6gate is easy to defend :|
The Zergs who lose to this push are lower level. That's their problem. It's a neat way to fix pvp I suppose, but proxy 2gate and canon is still a dominant strat. I don't really like the idea of restrictions on warpgates though because in those awkward base trades this could cause issues.
Yeah, totally, especially that Julyzerg kid, I bet he just started playing SC like a week ago...what a chobo..
+ Show Spoiler +
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Personally, I think just adding in the additional damage warping in units take could go a long, long way without really disrupting any balance issues. Especially in PvP in terms of warping up zealots on the high ground while 4gating.
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Putting warp gate research on the twilight council would be my choice.
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As a Protoss, I do not like the concept of nerfing the upgrade because the only logical solutions still feel like very messy measures, but I really don't think Blizzard has a choice (well I guess they do of course, but the decision not to fix it is poor for the game), as PvP is just out of control and I think people who claim it's going to evolve are helplessly hopeful or in denial...
The Nexus proximity changes seem best, whether you take additional damage being warped in from farther away, or whether it takes longer to warp-in from farther away or even being unable to altogether if beyond a certain distance, but they're not clean changes at all, and by that I mean that it seems odd and unintuitive that the warpgate functions in such a way. With Zerg creep bonuses feel natural, as the creep functions to sustain the Zerg structures and gives Zerg vision. But there is no apparent relationship between the warp-in "spell" and the Nexus to associate such a restriction, it just screams "we didn't know what else to do but we had to nerf it because it was broken".
It's too bad Protoss can't function without warpgates, if only this were more like BW :\
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You can make it so units have to warp in close to the nexus, and I think that would be a better idea.
Also make warp in time same as build time.
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On April 16 2011 15:49 PlaGuE_R wrote:
Before I start this off, I would just like to point out that I'm a protoss.
I hear so many complaints about warpgates, it's too powerful, it's ridiculous, it's annoying etc.
I had an idea, that I think, personally, is pretty good. And I wanted to share it with you, the community.
What if, you were not able to warp in to a pylon unless it was a certain distance from your nexus until the 15 minute mark? For example, you would be able to warp in fine in the middle of a map, but a pylon inside a player's base or natural would be useless for warp in until the 15 minute mark? This, in my opinion, would fix PvP and the 4 warpgate fest that it is, it would also make 4 and 6 gate pushes in PvZ way easier for the zerg to defend.
in essence, warp gates would NOT rob defender's advantage anymore until a certain point in the game where robbing that advantage would not be too powerful anymore.
so, comment?
1. Those who are complaining should learn to defend and counter whatever they're losing to, just like everyone else does. For instance, I'm Protoss and don't like the idea of mutalisks coming into my base, but I understand what I generally need to do beforehand to prevent them from coming in... or if they do start poking around, what actions I can take to thwart off that attack. I'm not asking for the mutalisk to be nerfed, as much as they frustrate me (and countless other people).
2. Restricting pylon placement, regardless of the duration and distance, stops any form of early aggression from the Protoss. Period. Now, while the Protoss may not want to be aggressive and attack early every game, the threat of aggression must always exist (just like with the other two races), so that the opponents can't just sit back and power until the arbitrary mark when Protosses can actually use their warp-in function to their full effect.
3. Cheese is part of the game. That includes hidden tech, cannon rushes, and proxy building pushes. It's utterly ridiculous to remove these ideas, as it makes the game one-dimensional, less exciting, and stale. And much easier.
4. Did you put this in Blogs because you knew it would get closed in any other section? (Because it would. Topics like these are frowned upon.)
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This is just going to degrade into a "How about THIS nerf to Warpgate?" "Nah, well what about doing X to Warpgate?"
It already is, actually.
Warpgate tech is fine. Leave it alone and move on. There's a reason that these threads get closed every single time in the regular (non-blog) threads.
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There's a difference between making early aggression less powerful and cutting it off entirely. Neutering toss earlygame doesn't make things interesting as it causes people to do ridiculously greedy early builds as they know there is no threat of aggression.
The whole point of warpgates are that you can make units anywhere on the map you have power. Complicated systems like "takes longer to warp in the further away it is from the nearest nexus" directly contradict this as it is more advantageous to make units right on top of your nexus.
Don't try and change the design of the feature, improve your own game and focus on your own strategies instead of mindless pondering.
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The only thing I'd change about warpgates would be to stop pylons warping shit above cliffs. I hate that, and it might help pvp out a bit with defend 4gate on a regular sized ramp without 4 zealots being thrown right up through your FF.
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Maybe they can use the Nexus as the warping-in instrument. Just have a big arc like sensor towers.
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I say, it would be nice to have a dedicated map-maker who would be more than happy to implement these kinds of ideas to test in a custom map.
Anyways, it really does seem that Warpgate is too cheap, too soon in the tech tree, and too relied on compared to normal Gateways. While OP's suggestion does seem somewhat decent, I think it might also be reasonable to move Warpgate up the tech tree and/or tweak it so that normal Gateways are a viable alternative. It really bothers me that Blizzard decided to implement a button that transforms Warpgates back into Gateways when there are absolutely no advantages to do so.
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a way better way to fix pvp is to make it unable to warp in units on a ramp. Which would criple the 4 gate :D
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Just turn them back into gateways then back into warpgates and warpin another round
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On April 16 2011 19:33 kyarisan wrote:
As a Protoss, I do not like the concept of nerfing the upgrade because the only logical solutions still feel like very messy measures, but I really don't think Blizzard has a choice (well I guess they do of course, but the decision not to fix it is poor for the game), as PvP is just out of control and I think people who claim it's going to evolve are helplessly hopeful or in denial...
The Nexus proximity changes seem best, whether you take additional damage being warped in from farther away, or whether it takes longer to warp-in from farther away or even being unable to altogether if beyond a certain distance, but they're not clean changes at all, and by that I mean that it seems odd and unintuitive that the warpgate functions in such a way. With Zerg creep bonuses feel natural, as the creep functions to sustain the Zerg structures and gives Zerg vision. But there is no apparent relationship between the warp-in "spell" and the Nexus to associate such a restriction, it just screams "we didn't know what else to do but we had to nerf it because it was broken".
It's too bad Protoss can't function without warpgates, if only this were more like BW :\
Why are you comparing creep to warpgates?
They're completely different things.
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EPT
