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On April 13 2011 06:33 Pandain wrote:
I think that's why so many people are upset.
Yes pros play for the money, and that's why many of them will cheese in order to do so. But that's why we feel so mad at them. Because what if they didn't really deserve it?
Yes MC was very smart and through the "meta game" managed to successfully reverse 3-0 White Ra. But what if he had scouted earlier?
Auto lose.
What if White Ra had scouted his base?
Auto lose.
What if White ra had changed his build
Perhaps lose.
The point is that even though its white ra's fault for not scouting, and therefore MC "deserved" the win, he really didn't deserve it by means of that game. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it in total, since I personally believe MC is a better play than white ra.
When a player wins a game, and not just any game, but THE GAME that decides who gets 15000 and who goes home brokes they 2 gate and risk everything on luck, the luck that they are not scouted, it is natural that people will be mad. Especially with all the drama surrounding Whitera's initial 2-0 lead, and the MC-Whitera rivalry beforehand.
So yes I see your point, but also remember that there are people who "deserve" the win, and people who deserve it. And while I feel MC is ahead of White Ra and had white ra been any other race he would have dominated him, you must keep in mind the other side as well. '
Edit: To go on, there are (I would say) two realms of thoughts in who "deserves a win".
Who is the better player?: This would favor MC, but the fact that its still somewhat in question(especially in PVP) is why White Ra fans are angry. Sure Idra could get cheesed by a bronzie 3 times in a row, but if it was for 15000$ and that's all the bronzie did I'm sure we would still view Idra as the better player and "deserving(note quotations)" of that win.
Who played better? Going from the example above, if the 6 pool worked all 3 times, than obviously its Idra's fault for not reacting. But that's why when people are arguing over things like the final game they're really arguing over one basic question...
What really constitutes a "deserving" of a win?
Is it skill?
Micro?
Macro?
Meta game knowledge?
WTF?
There is no "deserving" in Starcraft. You can quantify it subjectively however the hell you want, but a win is a win and a loss is a loss. There is no objective standard that will tell you who is the most "deserving" of a win in a series between two Starcraft players.
This isn't poker, where you can quantify decisions statistically and determine whether they were "right" or "wrong" based on what you know about the hands. For example, pushing all-in holding 33 against someone who reraised aggressively preflop with KK is a terrible decision. If the guy holding 33 wins the pot and knocks the guy with KK out, he got lucky on his 20% chance to win. Did he "deserve" to win? Maybe not. But, this is not poker. You can't say that a 2 gate proxy has an x% chance to win and MC got lucky and therefore he won but didn't deserve to win.
The fact is, everything about MC's play in, I would argue, every set, showed that he is the better player. Whitera didn't adapt well, seeing as he went for the same build every game. I would argue that Whitera was an idiot to not have cheesed after being up 2-0 or even 1-0. PvP is a volatile matchup and you can't pigeonhole yourself with the same build every game, because no build in PvP is safe against everything.
Whitera didn't adapt, and he didn't play well in the fifth set. He lost. MC won. end of story.
5/5 on the blog btw.
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heh 75% of the best player in the worlds games revolve around timing attacks and all ins off 1 and 2 base, seeing mc get to a third base is pretty rare. i dont see why people think he is the best player int he world, yes, he wins alot, but that doesnt make him more skilled than nestea or MVP, he is just good at making builds.
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Boxer bunker rushing Yellow three games in a row.
Just had to be said^^
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On April 13 2011 06:49 hugman wrote:
So I said this like twice already, but I think the tennis analogy of using an underhand serve on a match point is the perfect example. Is that respected in tennis? No.
MC can win like that but I'm not going to respect him for showing such a boring deciding game.
Exactly. I could not have said it better.
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On April 13 2011 06:55 Warrice wrote:
heh 75% of the best player in the worlds games revolve around timing attacks and all ins off 1 and 2 base, seeing mc get to a third base is pretty rare. i dont see why people think he is the best player int he world, yes, he wins alot, but that doesnt make him more skilled than nestea or MVP, he is just good at making builds.
Well the whole point of SC2 is to win. Wouldn't that mean that the most skilled player is the player that wins the most?
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United States2294 Posts
I just feel a lot of the ragers think SC2 is some kind of martial art where you need to follow a bunch of manners and gentleman rules apart from game mechanics and strategy. In their minds:
"OMFG an ALL-IN?! You are depriving me of watching an awesome full-scale macro game.. YOU HAVE NO HONOR!!"
c'mon guys..
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On April 13 2011 06:58 Belano wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 06:55 Warrice wrote:
heh 75% of the best player in the worlds games revolve around timing attacks and all ins off 1 and 2 base, seeing mc get to a third base is pretty rare. i dont see why people think he is the best player int he world, yes, he wins alot, but that doesnt make him more skilled than nestea or MVP, he is just good at making builds. Well the whole point of SC2 is to win. Wouldn't that mean that the most skilled player is the player that wins the most?
that depends on the definition of skill, and how id like to define skill is how good you are at all areas of the game.
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stop whining boesthius, because while a win is a win, it doesn't give you the right to ban people who think MC cheesed his way to winning, which is absolutely true.
The 5th game he did a cheese and won. You can't deny that it was a cheese, so you might as well accept why people are pissed at him.
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On April 13 2011 07:00 broz0rs wrote:
I just feel a lot of the ragers think SC2 is some kind of martial art where you need to follow a bunch of manners and gentleman rules apart from game mechanics and strategy. In their minds:
"OMFG an ALL-IN?! You are depriving me of watching an awesome full-scale macro game.. YOU HAVE NO HONOR!!"
c'mon guys..
Those non official rules around honnor and such exist in almost EVERY damn game played at a good enough level. In football, you put the ball out of the field when a guy is down and the opposing team give the ball back after. In rugby, you help your opponent to get up and touch his ass in the most gayest fashion, etc.
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On April 13 2011 07:01 Warrice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 06:58 Belano wrote:On April 13 2011 06:55 Warrice wrote:
heh 75% of the best player in the worlds games revolve around timing attacks and all ins off 1 and 2 base, seeing mc get to a third base is pretty rare. i dont see why people think he is the best player int he world, yes, he wins alot, but that doesnt make him more skilled than nestea or MVP, he is just good at making builds. Well the whole point of SC2 is to win. Wouldn't that mean that the most skilled player is the player that wins the most? that depends on the definition of skill, and how id like to define skill is how good you are at all areas of the game.
MC is good at all areas of the game. He played the better mind game. He had the better micro. He had excellent macro and late game play vs Idra. He's amazing at defense or setting the pace of the game with aggression. He wins, a lot, against every race.
MC is skilled.
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On April 13 2011 07:03 thehitman wrote:
stop whining boesthius, because while a win is a win, it doesn't give you the right to ban people who think MC cheesed his way to winning, which is absolutely true.
The 5th game he did a cheese and won. You can't deny that it was a cheese, so you might as well accept why people are pissed at him.
He didn't ban people for calling cheese. He banned people for personal insults against MC because they wanted White-Ra to win.
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On April 13 2011 06:33 Pandain wrote:I think that's why so many people are upset. Yes pros play for the money, and that's why many of them will cheese in order to do so. But that's why we feel so mad at them. Because what if they didn't really deserve it? Yes MC was very smart and through the "meta game" managed to successfully reverse 3-0 White Ra. But what if he had scouted earlier? Auto lose. What if White Ra had scouted his base? Auto lose. What if White ra had changed his build Perhaps lose. The point is that even though its white ra's fault for not scouting, and therefore MC "deserved" the win, he really didn't deserve it by means of that game. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it in total, since I personally believe MC is a better play than white ra. When a player wins a game, and not just any game, but THE GAME that decides who gets 15000 and who goes home brokes they 2 gate and risk everything on luck, the luck that they are not scouted, it is natural that people will be mad. Especially with all the drama surrounding Whitera's initial 2-0 lead, and the MC-Whitera rivalry beforehand. So yes I see your point, but also remember that there are people who "deserve" the win, and people who deserve it. And while I feel MC is ahead of White Ra and had white ra been any other race he would have dominated him, you must keep in mind the other side as well. ' Edit: To go on, there are (I would say) two realms of thoughts in who "deserves a win". Who is the better player?: This would favor MC, but the fact that its still somewhat in question(especially in PVP) is why White Ra fans are angry. Sure Idra could get cheesed by a bronzie 3 times in a row, but if it was for 15000$ and that's all the bronzie did I'm sure we would still view Idra as the better player and "deserving(note quotations)" of that win. Who played better? Going from the example above, if the 6 pool worked all 3 times, than obviously its Idra's fault for not reacting. But that's why when people are arguing over things like the final game they're really arguing over one basic question... What really constitutes a "deserving" of a win? Is it skill? Micro? Macro? Meta game knowledge? Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 06:37 Roffles wrote:On April 13 2011 06:33 Pandain wrote:
I think that's why so many people are upset.
Yes pros play for the money, and that's why many of them will cheese in order to do so. But that's why we feel so mad at them. Because what if they didn't really deserve it?
Yes MC was very smart and through the "meta game" managed to successfully reverse 3-0 White Ra. But what if he had scouted earlier?
Auto lose.
What if White Ra had scouted his base?
Auto lose.
What if White ra had changed his build
Perhaps lose.
The point is that even though its white ra's fault for not scouting, and therefore MC "deserved" the win, he really didn't deserve it by means of that game. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it in total, since I personally believe MC is a better play than white ra.
When a player wins a game, and not just any game, but THE GAME that decides who gets 15000 and who goes home brokes they 2 gate and risk everything on luck, the luck that they are not scouted, it is natural that people will be mad. Especially with all the drama surrounding Whitera's initial 2-0 lead, and the MC-Whitera rivalry beforehand.
So yes I see your point, but also remember that there are people who "deserve" the win, and people who deserve it. And while I feel MC is ahead of White Ra and had white ra been any other race he would have dominated him, you must keep in mind the other side as well. No one deserves to win a game. If you don't win, you don't deserve to win. Doesn't matter how you lose, how great you may be, or whatever. If you lose, you lost. Doesn't matter if you're Flash playing Hyuk and Hyuk does some gay 6 pool shit while you 14 CC'd. You didn't deserve to win that game. That's a good point, and I agree (somewhat) with the sentiment. But let's lay out an example. Jinro is playing a zerg bronzie. Jinro has 5 bases(orbitals ofc for mass mules!). The zerg is obviously bronze, going gas first, than 7 pool. Jinro stops every chance for expo, macros up, and moves in his marine army for the win and then.... banelings burrowed destroy everything. And the zerg counter attacks and wins. So I guess the better question would be, is "playing better" mean you deserve it? I'm personally unsure. On one hand I agree with you, if you lost you lost. On the other hand, if you are the "better player" and the other person only won through sheer luck, how can you say that the bronzie actually deserves it?
You are wrong, sure the 2 gate proxy was super risky. But it wasn't a blind risk. I wouldn't call this win luck-based, here's why.
-MC analyzed White-Ra's play, from this finals, and from previous encounters, and concluded that white-ra was DEFINITELY going to scout late. He probably didn't doubt a second.
Thus, in the context of THIS finals, with THESE players involved, MC's play is strategically brilliant. It's different if I go to ladder and proxy gate every time. There, I'll be playing entirely luck-based, since I have no idea if my opponent scouts or not. In this game, MC had a great degree of certainty that white-ra wasn't going to scout, making cheese extremely effective. If this weren't the case, MC wouldn't have used cheese.
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Fuck yes boes. Tell them what's what. I couldn't agree more. Like 2000% agree.
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Exactly. MC was taking a risk, but it wasn't much of a risk. He saw White-Ra open the exact same way 4 times in a row. It was relatively safe to assume he would do the same thing for game 5. He knew that if White-Ra skipped his zealot in game 5, a proxy 2-gate would win and he was right.
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On April 13 2011 06:33 Pandain wrote:I think that's why so many people are upset. Yes pros play for the money, and that's why many of them will cheese in order to do so. But that's why we feel so mad at them. Because what if they didn't really deserve it? Yes MC was very smart and through the "meta game" managed to successfully reverse 3-0 White Ra. But what if he had scouted earlier? Auto lose. What if White Ra had scouted his base? Auto lose. What if White ra had changed his build Perhaps lose. The point is that even though its white ra's fault for not scouting, and therefore MC "deserved" the win, he really didn't deserve it by means of that game. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it in total, since I personally believe MC is a better play than white ra. When a player wins a game, and not just any game, but THE GAME that decides who gets 15000 and who goes home brokes they 2 gate and risk everything on luck, the luck that they are not scouted, it is natural that people will be mad. Especially with all the drama surrounding Whitera's initial 2-0 lead, and the MC-Whitera rivalry beforehand. So yes I see your point, but also remember that there are people who "deserve" the win, and people who deserve it. And while I feel MC is ahead of White Ra and had white ra been any other race he would have dominated him, you must keep in mind the other side as well. ' Edit: To go on, there are (I would say) two realms of thoughts in who "deserves a win". Who is the better player?: This would favor MC, but the fact that its still somewhat in question(especially in PVP) is why White Ra fans are angry. Sure Idra could get cheesed by a bronzie 3 times in a row, but if it was for 15000$ and that's all the bronzie did I'm sure we would still view Idra as the better player and "deserving(note quotations)" of that win. Who played better? Going from the example above, if the 6 pool worked all 3 times, than obviously its Idra's fault for not reacting. But that's why when people are arguing over things like the final game they're really arguing over one basic question... What really constitutes a "deserving" of a win? Is it skill? Micro? Macro? Meta game knowledge? Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 06:37 Roffles wrote:On April 13 2011 06:33 Pandain wrote:
I think that's why so many people are upset.
Yes pros play for the money, and that's why many of them will cheese in order to do so. But that's why we feel so mad at them. Because what if they didn't really deserve it?
Yes MC was very smart and through the "meta game" managed to successfully reverse 3-0 White Ra. But what if he had scouted earlier?
Auto lose.
What if White Ra had scouted his base?
Auto lose.
What if White ra had changed his build
Perhaps lose.
The point is that even though its white ra's fault for not scouting, and therefore MC "deserved" the win, he really didn't deserve it by means of that game. I'm not saying he didn't deserve it in total, since I personally believe MC is a better play than white ra.
When a player wins a game, and not just any game, but THE GAME that decides who gets 15000 and who goes home brokes they 2 gate and risk everything on luck, the luck that they are not scouted, it is natural that people will be mad. Especially with all the drama surrounding Whitera's initial 2-0 lead, and the MC-Whitera rivalry beforehand.
So yes I see your point, but also remember that there are people who "deserve" the win, and people who deserve it. And while I feel MC is ahead of White Ra and had white ra been any other race he would have dominated him, you must keep in mind the other side as well. No one deserves to win a game. If you don't win, you don't deserve to win. Doesn't matter how you lose, how great you may be, or whatever. If you lose, you lost. Doesn't matter if you're Flash playing Hyuk and Hyuk does some gay 6 pool shit while you 14 CC'd. You didn't deserve to win that game. That's a good point, and I agree (somewhat) with the sentiment. But let's lay out an example. Jinro is playing a zerg bronzie. Jinro has 5 bases(orbitals ofc for mass mules!). The zerg is obviously bronze, going gas first, than 7 pool. Jinro stops every chance for expo, macros up, and moves in his marine army for the win and then....
banelings burrowed destroy everything. And the zerg counter attacks and wins.
So I guess the better question would be, is "playing better" mean you deserve it? I'm personally unsure. On one hand I agree with you, if you lost you lost. On the other hand, if you are the "better player" and the other person only won through sheer luck, how can you say that the bronzie actually deserves it?
This isn't a good example cause its like your looking at it as if its a ladder match or a 1 and done tournament. What if it was game 1 of a Bo3 like dream hack and Jinro loses that first game to the Bronze player so what. There will be outrage at first but everyone will probably call the bronze player ballsy for trying it knowing he was outmatch. The next 2 games Jinro being a superior player shows and he probably wins the Bo3 easily 2-1. No one remembers it and mostly forgets the cheese of the first game.
If the proxy 2 gate was game 1 and a epic game of Colossus wars was the final deciding game no one would really be upset about the cheese. Its like everyone wants a Last second Fade away jumper at the buzzer for every final match. Or a Daigo vs Jwong "Comeback" its live and real not scripted like Botheius said in his blog. I understand being disappointed at the final match cause it didnt present drama and excitement. Stooping to level of calling MC a "Faggot" "Cheater" just shows people can't express their opinions in a civilized manner with out resorting to immature name calling. Alot of people go offensive at the first sign of displeasure because they know on TL you will get challenged. Most people here will have a friendly debate of your points as long as you don't go full "immature".
Im not directing this at you that you where calling him a Fag and such cause you said your reasoning why you dislike the way it went down in the series in a reasonable way.
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On April 13 2011 06:55 Warrice wrote:
heh 75% of the best player in the worlds games revolve around timing attacks and all ins off 1 and 2 base, seeing mc get to a third base is pretty rare. i dont see why people think he is the best player int he world, yes, he wins alot, but that doesnt make him more skilled than nestea or MVP, he is just good at making builds.
He got to 4 base vs Idra in a super long 200/200 macro game and won without losing a building. MC has a ton of skill. Perhaps even more than Nestea and MVP.
MVP is also successful because he's aggressive with timing attacks and can play a variety of styles like MC, and has excellent control like MC.
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Agree 100%, thank you so much.
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On April 13 2011 06:55 Warrice wrote:
heh 75% of the best player in the worlds games revolve around timing attacks and all ins off 1 and 2 base, seeing mc get to a third base is pretty rare. i dont see why people think he is the best player int he world, yes, he wins alot, but that doesnt make him more skilled than nestea or MVP, he is just good at making builds.
Winning = being best.
Skill = have the potential to be the best.
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10/10 post boesthius, but I'm afraid you're probably preaching to the choir here. The QQers are more upset that White-ra lost and MC won, than about cheese. Flip the situations around and White-ra would be hailed as a genius herotoss.
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EPT
