|
Reading about Gottman always reminds me of his research involving meta emotion structures between parents and children. I think it actually applies a lot in the same way with what you're talking about here in some respects.
That is if you consider the community like the parent and any organization to be a kid. You can't be dismissing with them and tell them not to cry (never have anything wrong with their events). You gotta let em know it's okay to fuck things up because everyone does it, and then tell them how to improve. Where his whole meta emotions comes into play for this thing is literally how people convey their emotions about emotions. So if you're pissed about MLG having issues, it's perfectly fine to BE pissed in your tone when providing feedback, as long as you're constructive and your comments are useful.
We gotta emotionally coach these MLG people so they can positively interact with peers in the future! Not just disregard their concerns and tell them not to be so shitty next time.
I really wish advice like this blog would ring through to entire communities so they'd stop with their pointless rage.
|
We've tried feedback positively. Every MLG has been pretty bad in terms of stream delays, quality, octoshape, rules such as extended series, sound-proofing issues, etc. There has been backlash but no where near all the negativity as MLG has seen with this one. Everyone seems to think this is the first time the SC2 community has had problems with the product we're getting from MLG, unfortunately it isn't.
Sometimes constantly telling your kid "everyone makes mistakes, its ok" doesn't work and you need to resort to something like "son you need to stop this or I'm going to beat the shit out of you with this belt".
|
On April 05 2011 17:23 EvilTeletubby wrote:pieman819: I think you're completely missing the point. What did your whining just accomplish? What will it EVER accomplish? Even with your sarcastic-asshole comments about the MLG experience - you are contributing nothing, helping nothing, and in fact, causing nothing more than resentment. Lose the sense of entitlement. Having worked in the corporate setting for a while now, I can attest to the fact that there is nothing that will absolutely kill productivity more than negative attitudes/complaining (Note: Complaining does NOT mean that you can't bring up something that isn't working). Anna was simply pointing out that there are better ways to view these types of situations, and I agree 100%. Your comments do little more than to perpetuate negative stereotypes that gamers lack maturity. Oh, and I know you probably don't care. That just makes her point even MORE valid. -_- Anyways, <3 Anna. 
I wouldn't say anything if i didn't care, say I lack maturity all you want but ad hominems are not they way to show your own. What did your post now accomplish? what will it EVER accomplish?
Can you give me an example of one single piece of constructive criticism that can be given from this weekends fiasco that hasn't already been mentioned at every other MLG that has had starcraft 2 as part of it's scedule? Everything has already been said and acknowledged by MLG whether they take on the advice or not (seating vs extended series are examples of them changing and sticking to their guns respectively).
Sense of entitilment is another buzz phrase thrown out so much these days that it has lost all of it's meaning. Where in my post did I even make any mention of anything related to feeling entitled to anything?
|
On April 05 2011 15:43 shindigs wrote:
I'm trying to agree with this post, but I can't.
This is written like we're putting all our eSports eggs into MLG's basket. Last weekend for MLG, I just stopped watching the stream and didn't even bother trying to load it up and instead just deferred to TL's twitter. I'm getting a vibe that if I don't support a poorly run event, I'm not supporting eSports, which I don't understand. It's the Internet, and there will ALWAYS be unnecessary negativity, but saying that people are being too negative because they're being fairly critical isn't much better. I don't see how it's hard to sort out the good complaints from the bad ones.
I'll support eSports by supporting companies and events that are well run so that eSports is under good hands. I know MLG may have just fallen under unlucky times, but in the end they're going to have to find a streaming model that works because I'm not a fan of just hyping up a company just because they're under the mantra of "growing eSports".
I agree with Anna's post as well, however I too have to agree with this post completely.
MLG has been given the opportunity to help promote eSports, but the reason that people are "needlessly bashing" or criticizing or whatever excuse they want to come up with is b/c they have failed miserably after a full year of "trying."
Last year people were "screaming" for sound-proof booths for the players, they were even asked about it more than a month ago on State of the Game's interview with MLG's Sundance. They ignored the cries from the people *paying them money.*
In fact, that interview came off as Sundance just telling us to give him money. Have an issue? Buy his shirts. Want to support the players? Buy the shirts. Everything came down to us supporting *him* and giving him more and more money. And that's after we find out what a crappy payout the prize pool is for such a "huge tournament."
The reason why people are being "negative" isn't due to them being trolls or just trying to blow off steam, it's b/c they care about the product that is put out in front of them. During MLG Dallas, there were issues from before the tournament started until it ended. It's not like MLG wasn't aware of the amount of people who wanted to view the stream, who paid for it, or even attended the event. Yet, it came off as MLG being completely unprepared, or worse, completely trying to scrape by w/giving the customers the least they possibly could get away with. It started w/the terrible stream quality and consistency all the way down to game lag and other such issues.
Now don't get me wrong Anna (and MLG), but you cannot completely blame the lag issues on Blizzard. I kept seeing you send out tweet after tweet asking us to hound Blizzard into bringing out dedicated servers to LAN tournaments or adding LAN support. Yet, how are we supposed to believe it was in ANY way Blizzard's fault when MLG themselves couldn't even get the games to us in the first place? Or when we continually saw other eSports lag or crash?
Don't get me wrong, I agree that Blizzard give LAN support or help the companies out that are growing Blizzard's product w/dedicated tournament servers. Yet, I cannot say definitively that any of the lag issues, drop issues, or otherwise were at all Blizzard's fault. Sure, I get the surrender screen when I play on a stable connection. Yes, it happens at other tournaments too - such as GSL. However, how many people dropped during one weekend at MLG when GSL hardly ever has their players drop from live games? Worse, how many players were dropping as a direct result of the terrible internet connection that MLG was using to host these games and stream them to us?
Anna, neither you nor MLG would be getting as much "negativity" from "us" if this were the first time it has happened at MLG. Yet all the events last year had the exact same issues. How can MLG with a straight face tell us we're being negative or even that they're "sorry" when this has happened time and time again? That's just plain silly. Sounds like a ridiculous statement that children use with their parents. Not because the child is truly sorry, but because the child got caught yet AGAIN.
This post probably seems to you like I'm just being negative, but how can there be a positive outlook on this MLG event (or ones coming in the future) when this has been a recurring issue with MLG's management at said events with absolutely nothing being done to rectify the problems after more than a year?
|
Oh, here is something constructive. Which will be utterly pointless because the MLG does not want or is just not capable to deliver a decent event. They had chances after chances and just fail compared to every other BIG event. There was no perfect event yet, but MLG is whiteout a doubt the worst...
Critism/advise
1: Get a stable stream. As it seems, everyone can do this, except MLG. Even some Eagle.
2: You show way to less games. Use that stream to show as many games as possible, put referees/observers in games that the casters can switch to immediatly or have 2-3 "casting" teams do that... MANY casters would be more than happy to cast for free, there is no excuse for not having this. There should be no need for players to play from the "main stage" or anything to get them on the stream.
3. Record interviews between games with "famous" players or guys that did better than expected. The after game interviews were bad and brought next to nothing to the event. Have players join the casters from time to time for interviews or even let them cast a game together. You got all the players there, "USE THEM".
4. Either get soundproof boots or let the players play in another room, having no commentary for the live audience is terrible, having players hear the commentators is loltastic.
5. Reduce "downtime".. Show something, allways... Anything... Just show something... Interviews, Games, Replays, Eagles, Music Vidoes, Porn..... SHOW SOMETHING. A screen which sais "stream will resume momentarely" should not be on air E V E R. It's like a huge "WE FAILED TO DELIVER CONTENT" sign.
6. Get a Tournament format people can understand that does not give people that allready did good once such a huge advantage. Your format right now makes sense and is fair, aside from the huge advantage of starting in the groupes. But it's horribly complicated and hard to follow... KEEP IT EASY.
Qualfications (whatever you want, even double elimination) --> Groupes (Seed here) --> RO 16/32 tournament (Single elimination).
It's simple and the final feels like a final.. There is a reason the other "BIG" events are run like that.
Double Elimination is not and never will be a good format if you want to have an exciting final (which you should want), extended series is an abomination.
7. Advertisements?... I had 1 over the whole weekend (some gum)... How do you make money? O_o. It would probably be wise to get some region specific sponsors... Dr. Pepper is fine, but non existant where i live... And if i would see that Brand X is sponsoring E-Sports Brand Y with a similar product would likely lose a customer  .
Now can anyone tell me, which of these points, is not O B V I O U S to everyone that thinks about this for 5-10 minutes? Well, MLG seems to not "see" this and thats why i'm pissed and thats why i wouldn't care less if the event just dies.
|
On April 05 2011 15:37 hmunkey wrote:
Why is complaining looked down at as a bad thing? MLG isn't a charity; it is a for-profit organization. It's goal is to make money off us, the viewers and players, so we are entitled to complain. We're both the consumers of their content and the product for their advertisers.
It really bothers me a lot when people jump up to defend companies. Their role is to satisfy us enough that they can take our money -- something MLG clearly didn't do well at last weekend.
Complaining and cynicism can be negative things, but they're absolutely crucial for improvement. We're no longer in grade school where constructive criticism is the only way to handle things. We're dealing with multimillion dollar organizations.
And said organization's Sundance has told us "if you want it fixed, BUY more stuff from me!" What kind of statement is that? It's like they're telling us 'hey man, we know our product sucks, we know that we're not meeting the needs of the consumer, but if you just keep throwing money at us, we promise that in the future we'll meet them."
|
On April 05 2011 15:42 JSkates wrote:
Well said and I agree. Personally heard back from some MLG people on twitter just because I was staying positive. It's VERY obvious MLG (and Sundance, their CEO) really care about SC2. People need to do their best to support MLG, not bash them for trying to give us something better. Sure, Dallas was, overall, a poor experience for anyone who wasn't there in person but MLG has made it clear they are not happy with that.
Like I said on twitter: MLG learned from Dallas and it will only get better.
Might not even be perfect in Columbus but by the time the 2011 season is over they will have this stuff mastered and bring us a really good show worthy of purchasing the HD pass for.
Really? Do you honestly believe this?
If so, why then has MLG not learned after over a full year now? This wasn't their first starcraft 2 experience. There were 3 last year, EACH of which had these exact same issues. Have they gotten better? No! In fact, they've only gotten worse. The problems have not only gotten more severe, but the amount of people with which they have affected have grown immensely.
It's hard not to "bash" MLG when they're product is continually getting worse while they make money off of us, the consumers.
On April 05 2011 15:44 Kennigit wrote:
The problem (and point) is that complainers rarely bring anything new to the table or suggestions for change.
Great blog!
What suggestions could we make that we already have made?
I'm being serious. We're not the "experts" on how to run a company, how to stream live games, how to provide the necessary resources for eSports "athletes" (lololol :D ) to succeed. We, as consumers, are simply here to buy a product and enjoy it; whether we "purchase" the product monetarily or "consume" the product via advertisements.
If people didn't care, didn't want to see Starcraft 2 succeed, would we be complaining? We can't bring suggestions for change any other way as consumers except via "complaining" to try to get what is going wrong changed.
If we as consumers could do so, trust me, we wouldn't be the consumers, we'd be the company going out there to make money and promote Starcraft... just like NASL has done. And hopefully for their sake, they have listened to our criticisms to improve their wonderful product.
|
This would be applicable if teamliquid was a work group
this is fan / anonymous feedback
MLG event was a disaster and 90% of people that tried to watch it have negative feelings towards mlg after the debacle obviously. There is no way in hell you can expect 75% positivity afterward. IMO I want MLG to either not suck terribly or just disappear, I have no vested interest in them making money running crap shows.
|
While I agree with most of what the OP says I somewhat disagree with the “No Complaining Rule”. I am not saying that people should be complaing and criticising non stop with no reason. To grow Esports (as what many paople would like to call it), people need to be more PROACTIVE and being proactive with everything they do and that includes valid criticisms and complaints.
I am not saying people should start just complaining and insulting with no direction. People can be proactive with their complaints without being insulting and whining. When I say be poactive with complaints, it can be done like what the OP said and that is providing constructive feedback/criticism but it can be also done by voicing the complaint/criticism to the people that matters. For example if you do not like that MLGs stream because it is laggy or the quality is poor, you voice those opinions/complaints to MLG in an orderly fashion. If 1 million people voice this complaint (even if the criticism is not constructive) to MLG, not only does it tell MLG that there is a wide audience interested in epsorts but it also tells them what they are doing wrong. If they know there are many people interested in a product and are unsatisfied with it, they will be willing fix the probelm because it is in their interest to fix the problem.
Again, I have to emphasise that you have to be procactive and do it in an orderly fashion. A million people voicing their complaints on TL or Reddit will do no actual good if the people that matters do not know about it.
I will also make an another example. Alot of people complain that playing on battlenet is very laggy and problematic for competitive starcraft. Assume we dont know a solution to this problem (we know having lan ability could solve most of this probelms), complaining on TL and making youtube videos complaining will not necessarily make the people that matters know about it. What will help is a miillion people writing to MLG, GOM and any other big tournament partners of Blizzard as well as Blizzard themselves telling them of this problrm and complaining to them about it. Of course if you offer them constructive criticsm it will might help them solve this problem. But it is more important that a LARGE number of people to tell BLizzard that it is a probelm and it needs to be fixed. By complaing to Blizzards partners such as GOM or MLG, those partners are more likely to tell Blizzard og the problems. You might say those issues has nothing to do with GOM and MLG and that it is unfair to complain to them about it but if many people complain, it is more like they bring it to the attention of Blizzard and partners of Blizzard can be more persuasive. Even if there are not obvious solutions, if it is in a company's interest to try to fix problems, they will spend resources on finding a solution.
So what I am saying is 'to grow esports' do not take a backseat but be proactive with everything you do. You dont need to spend money on streams (although it helps), just by participating you will help epsorts, by watching a free stream, it is possible to show sponsors the interest and the exposure they can get. Also you cant be quite and not be making valid complaints because those problems will only be fixed if it is made known to the people that matters. It needs to be made known to tournaments, the more people who complain to a tournament the more likely the problem will be fixed. If the community is really big and passionate, starcraft and esports will prosper even if companies like MLG and GOM fail, if there is enough interest, support and viewership, there will always be tournaments. So people need to be more PROACTIVE with everything they do if they truly want esports to grow.
|
very well put!
I think if the community listens to this and keeps this in mind the quality of everything we see will improve by a wide margin
great post!!
|
On April 05 2011 18:33 Sega92 wrote:
very well put!
I think if the community listens to this and keeps this in mind the quality of everything we see will improve by a wide margin
great post!!
First MLG:
People were super excited, there were stream problems and stuff but it didn't matter much, it was BIG!!!
Second MLG:
People were super excited, there were stream problems and basically the same Problems as in MLG1... People asked themselves why but still, it was BIG!!!
Thrid MLG (finals):
People were super excited, there were still stream problems and stuff but the overall production (in my memorie) seemed to have been better... People still complained rightfully for better streams and wanted to see more games. But it was BIG!!!
Fourth MLG:
Total Stream-Meltdown for 2 days, HQ died to never live again, barely any games were shown even when the stream was on, there was basically no coverage aside from the few games.... People started a shitstorm and you can't blame them for this. It was a Disaster.
Now ask yourself... Except for the amount of Chairs for the audience... What did improve over the 4 (!) MLG's?...
Either MLG gets better fast or some other company will grab North American SC2 . As it is now, no one will miss MLG...
|
I would urge the naysayers responding to this post to reconsider its function. The OP isn't necessarily giving us a "don't worry, be happy" routine. It is suggesting a TACTIC of persuasion for getting tournaments like MLG to accommodate us. If you honestly believe that purely negative feedback with no constructive criticism is the absolute best way to affect the outcome you want, that's fine. But even from a completely self-interested point of view, I believe the community could benefit greatly from working more WITH companies that put on tournaments, and not AGAINST them. It has nothing to do with charity, it is all about having your message received well!!
|
I think people are blowing this way out of proportion. If MLG has done anything wrong, it's completely underestimate how fast this game is growing.
If you think about it, the production wasn't good because the internet at the event wasn't up to snuff. Other than that, they could've been more organized and focused on bringing the content to the stream. Definitely hire more casters and have multiple streams showing different games. I didn't have a problem with the stream quality. It could've been better, but I'm used to watching GSL on low quality lol. It really sucked that they streamed like 12 sets over the weekend and the downtime while the stream was up was also not good.
So all in all, other than stream stability, more streams, more content, more organization.
I do agree with Anna's point of view. It's okay to express anger, but if you really want MLG to improve, you should offer a way to make it better. Blind hate only creates more blind hate.
|
Oh yeah sure, let's quantify our "complaining" so we fit that 3:1 golden ratio of yours.
Lame rule.
|
Awesome OP, I completely agree with it.
Some people in this thread (besides those that are just somewhat ignorant and miss they point completely) seem to be stuck in this mindset that just because it's a company that makes money out of everyone they want to deliver to, you are entitled to kick and scream.
Let's say you are, should you still do it? This is, how I see it, the main issue. I personally felt extremly bitter during the weekend and was at times lost for words about what I truly felt was a complete failure, but it's just so true that regardless of how entitled I am to kicking and screaming nothing will come out of it and beeing constructive about it atleast gives the chance to have an improved situation later on.
Why pick the option that will provide you with lesser chance of success of something that you actually like? It's not in anyones interest in failure so why, just because it's their responsibility, should we as a community not try to help while we kick and scream?
|
Great Blog !
I think people are blowing this way out of proportion. If MLG has done anything wrong, it's completely underestimate how fast this game is growing.
I think that is what happend , they just underestimated the SC II Fanbase which is growing super fast!
So all in all, other than stream stability, more streams, more content, more organization.
agreed again , I think they can not do more to improve MLG 
|
People do not complain because of the lack of a solution, they complain because the solution is OBVIOUS, just not being implemented by those who "have power".
Take for example the recent MLG. I bought a ticket and while words cannot express how aweful the entire MLG experience was, it was the lack of support and professionalism from MLG that bugged me the most. An absolutely shitty production value, terrible organization, and oh umm being TOTALLY UNABLE TO WATCH 95% of the games live in the tournament is simply unacceptable.
This is not theoretical physics. these issues can be solved, easily. they are not complicated or obscure.
Just like how I shouldn't need to tell the guy at Subway to wash his hands before he makes my sub, we shouldn't have to tell MLG chairs might be useful at a huge gaming convention.
MLG is a professional organization, their tournaments have been laughable. to not complain would be doing the NA starcraft scene a great injustice as people will be lured into this false pretense that everything is okay, when in reality it is certainly not.
MLG is not in this for the charity, they are in it to profit and if they can't run a good show people should complain. If they continue their atrocious streak i am sure they will lose viewers and other tournaments will step in to take its place.
I am disgusted by how awful MLG is running, contrast this with how well other tournaments are ran (GSL, IEM, and on a different scale the TSL) and you begin to see how poor the quality of MLG is and the shitty content NA sc2 fans have to put up with.
While I appreciate your effort, your suggestions will not only NOT help the sc2 community it will hurt us by persuading us everything
|
Look, I don't mean to sound rude, but how many of you have actually followed MLG before starcraft 2 became an addon in the circuit? It doesn't seem like many of you have seen these problems that have come up time and time again at MLG.
I've been to at least 2 MLG events per year since 2005, and ever since they started streaming, there have been huge problems with their technology. They always unofficially promise to fix it, and the only time they have officially responded to these complaints was this past weekend when their forums exploded and people came together to let them know it's simply unacceptable.
Were some of the comments immature and unreasonable? Absolutely, and I don't support that kind of behavior. HOWEVER, just because I'm not a tech expert and can't offer any specific, "constructive" solutions does not mean I shouldn't express my lack of satisfaction about the product that I paid for. They need to be called out, whether the consumer can come up with a constructive solution or not.
|
I haven't been able to read all the posts as they are quite long and I'm at work right now (shhhh). I did read Anna's OP though and I can add to it in a way. I did not read the book she mentioned, but they teach us at work that diversity leads to innovation. So having some naysayers amidst a group of people can get the creative juices flowing. Have too many people being negative, and the creativeness is squashed. That being said, as someone who is looking to work with MLG with their LAN center initiative, I really want esports to succeed, not just for myself, but for the 150+ member of my the league I made.
So as an fan and someone that works in engineering, I'm going to shoot some soundproofing ideas to SD to see where I can help out.
|
For aiur! and cheers to eSports 2011 and what will come from esports in the future years, great read!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
