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This post contains spoilers for the TSL.
I'm sorry to make yet another "QQ" blog, but I just had to write something somewhere, otherwise I might explode. At least I didn't make this in SC2 General. 
I am ridiculously fed up with people writing off and badmouthing the TSL because of recent results, mostly in the context of live report and various whine-filled threads. What in the hell are these people thinking, and why do they feel the need to bring down everything and everyone around them? Just because the winners didn't fit your pre-conceived (and completely wrong) notions of how the tournament would turn out, you're turning your back on it? After everything that so many people dedicated to setting this up for you, the viewer? (not that I'm against complaints -- I'm just against totally unjustified complaints, or idiotic complaints out of the hands of the admins)
I am stunned at the number of people making excuses for the losers of close, incredible games. They blame balance, they blame the maps, they blame lag, they blame the "cheesiness" of the other player... whatever is convenient. They, of course, don't blame the loser.
Hate to break it to you guys, but if NesTea, FruitDealer, MVP, IdrA, Jinro, HuK, Strelok, Ciara, Loner, Genius, NightEnD, Ret, Fenix, Haypro, ZeeRaX, or TLO were the better players on the day they lost, they would have won their games. Being a better player doesn't mean that you're stronger in long macro games, that you've got godlike micro, that you've got better multitasking, that your APM is higher, that you picked the "overpowered" race, or any combination of the above. If you're a better player, you win. If anything else mattered, then we wouldn't play the damn game -- we would pit players against a Very Easy AI, and whoever has a higher APM after fifteen minutes of pumping drones wins. There are too many variables in a game of StarCraft to declare an arbitrary combination of them an approximation of "skill". Skill wins games. Period.
I think more than anything else I'm angered at the amount of disrespect being shown by many members of the community. This amazing tournament, that you've been hyped about for months, that had a tremendous amount of work put into it with no real compensation, that has the best production values that we've seen anywhere, is suddenly shit because some absolutely stunning games have taken place that resulted in unprecedented upsets. And now that incredible new talent has shown itself, you're going to say that the ro16 on is going to be filled with "bronze-level" matches "filled with allins" instead of being totally fucking sweet games pitting people who beat GSL champions against each other showcasing styles, timings, and mindgames that we've never experienced before? I don't understand.
I mean, yes, I've been disappointed when players I admired lost in unimpressive fashions. It happens. But what I don't get is when people lash out at players and administrators and the game itself. I couldn't believe the number of people declaring their bottomless hatred of Cruncher after a cheeky little ":)".
Allow me to quote rekrul:
Rekrul wrote:
All I'm asking of you, Idra, is to show some respect. Show some respect to the community, your team, the opponent that just raped you, and most importantly yourself by just frankly admitting to the fact that he outplayed you in the series and raped you straight up. No one is judging you saying F91 >>> you. F91 certainly was >>>> you that day and it was not due to luck. It was because he raped you. No one gives a fuck whos better between you and F91.
Ironic that this came from a post about a heated showmatch between IdrA and legendary Chinese player F91.
Rekrul wrote:
Instead of acting like an insecure little faggot by continuing to throw out stupid posts about 'why you lost' just say GG well played and move on with your life. Even when I was in Korea and breakdown raped me I admitted the truth: that I played horribly. Sure I could have done better but I did play horrible and I did lose straight up. I admitted that fact and moved on with my life and didn't sit around trying to blame my opponent's stupidity for why I lost. I mean seriously how can you blame your opponents stupidity for why you lost that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard LOL. Thats like doing a big-time drug sale where the agreement is 'bring no weapons' then you show up there unarmed and get robbed. How fucking stupid can YOU be. If you wasted less time making excuses and put that time into improving as a player and figuring out how you could have won given the dire circumstances that F91's brilliance put you in maybe people wouldn't hate you so much.
Probably the best solution is to just stop reading live report threads. Sorry that I wrote an angry blog post, and I know I shouldn't let the trolls get to me, but I had to get that out of my system before I took it out on people who didn't deserve it. :/
  
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I think you mean ro32 winners?
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People are angry at Cruncher's " "?
I was so happy when I saw that
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I also wonder at the mindset of complainers. I don't know any person who is so whiny that they have to take every minute thing and bitch about it like spoilt little shits, but LR threads are stacked with them and I genuinely wonder what those peoples minds are like.
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On March 28 2011 08:42 Rotodyne wrote:People are angry at Cruncher's " "? I was so happy when I saw that Same here. This TSL has been absolutely amazing so far.
As far as I could tell Idra was BM'ing constantly and Cruncher shrugged it off. He even tried to be the better man with his "GL HF." After taking so much crap it's hard to resist a smug smile, because in the end it's the results that matter.
It reminds me of trash talk from high school sports: If you're winning, you just smile and say "scoreboard." Nothing more needs to be said
Edit: The fanboyism has been pretty disgusting too. Apparently any time a favorite loses it's because the other player did a "gay cheese rush all-in," even if said attack occurred at the 10-15 min mark. So many LR comments were along the lines of "wow x totally outplayed y but y was being super gay."
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I don't even see why people would be upset at a
It's a smiling face, globally accepted as a friendly gesture.
Anyway I agree with you completely. I don't know how or if this lamentable attitude in TSL3's LR threads is going to improve, but I hope it does. As they are, they simply do not represent or reinforce the Team Liquid that I'm proud to be immersed in.
EDIT: Not completely. I have to agree with other repliers in that isolated series wins do not decisively affirm player skill differentials in any direction. When A beats B in a Bo3, all that constitutes is evidence suggesting that A is more skilled than B. Still, the game results are the most relevant evidence, especially compared to silly metrics like APM or... ability to make drones o.O
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United States13896 Posts
Renamed thread as all you could see on the sidebar immediately was "Negative attitudes ..."
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I think your point isn't so wrong, but it's really stupid to say that the better player always wins. We already have a word for the player who won, it's "winner", so "better player" should not be used to mean the same thing. That definition is circular anyway--you win because you are better, and you are better because you win. But certainly we can tell that TLO is better than me without him and I playing one another, right?
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Yeah I was pretty happy when I saw the too, just because IdrA didn't gg in either of the first games. Overall I think some players do need to admit their faults and manner up, although I can understand being pissed off. If it's a habit to always play with the bm mindset that some players do then I think it becomes a problem.
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The problem is, it's hard to define what makes a player better than the other, or what makes a "play" in a match better than that of their adversary.
Truth is: the better player is not necessarily the one that wins. So people find reasons why a player that they favor did not score. Be it lag, "abusive" (gotta love that word) tactics, cheeses, all-ins, luck, map balance or race balance. And until better play can be defined (which it will never completely be), people will find reasons to criticize and downplay the winner's play style.
And I agree, it's a shame. If you wanna hate, hate the game, not the players.
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Heck, I can't even say that I've enjoyed it much, and even then I agree wholeheartedly. A lot of the things that happen on IRC and in the LR threads makes me want to keep any discontent to myself, lest I get roped in with the people who just can't stop shitting all over the tournament.
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On March 28 2011 08:56 huameng wrote:
I think your point isn't so wrong, but it's really stupid to say that the better player always wins. We already have a word for the player who won, it's "winner", so "better player" should not be used to mean the same thing. That definition is circular anyway--you win because you are better, and you are better because you win. But certainly we can tell that TLO is better than me without him and I playing one another, right? Of course you can never infer from a single match who is better overall, but a lot of the negative stuff goes far beyond that. There's a lot of "Wow banelings/void rays what a skill-less newby. TSL will be terrible now because X got knocked out by Y and Y is terrible"
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Overall the games have been great. I think the whiners need to stfu and enjoy.
I thought the was classy. I think Idra and his bm is good for the scene though; it brings drama and excitement.
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yeah I loved CrunCher's smiley finisher, that was awesome.
:D I agree though.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
I think the vast majority of people would say that it's been a fantastic tournament so far and know better than to take one or two issues or hiccups and tar the whole effort with that brush. And I know everyone who works to make the TSL works isn't bothered by the one guy out of sixty thousand on stream who says "I'm not watching anymore because all the good players are out." If someone sees only what conforms to their narrow version of the Sc2 world, then they can't be helped, and it's their loss ultimately.
This is what the TSL has been about for its entire history after all. The TSL is about having fun, discovering talent, building fans for the game, and most of all, bringing communities together. And on all of those counts, TSL3 has been a tremendous success.
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2 things sprung to mind when i watch game 3 of idra vs cruncher
1. how easy it is for zerg to just die
2. forcefield, good spell.
this isnt to say LOL PROTOSS OP. cruncher moved out of his base, idra hit the drone key. whether or not protoss is op is for another discussion, but thats just how it went down.
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It's kind of funny that the complainers are probably the least likely to stop watching despite constantly "threatening" to do so. I think Cruncher had the right answer:
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Yup, lots of random trolls that are butt hurt. I agree with not reading the Reporting threads completely, talking to friends on vent about the matches is all I need really. Lets me rage if need be, but I generally just watch all the matches to try and learn not be a Fanboy. Personally I am stoked that all the korean invites / foreigners from korea got smashed by NA / EU players. Of course I liked almost every player in the tournament, but these events mean were going to see plenty of NEW styles, which is great.
Rage heard my friend, power down.
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I think lots of people get pissed because they have this notion that certain players "deserve" to win over another. This is TSL3, not American Idol or Starcraft Idol. Everyone that qualified has shown they have skill, they either proved it through qualifying, getting enough points on the TSL ladder, or of course being invited by TSL3.
The thing I think a lot of people should take away from a lot of the results so far is that just because someone is uberly more famous than someone else, or more known, doesn't necessarily mean they are better, or that they can't lose or make mistakes too. Imagine if TSL3 had done 100% invites. You'd never get to see players like cruncher or less knowns qualify and show they can compete and beat some of the best players. People shouldn't be so angry, they should be happy new players with high skill have the opportunity to show it in a huge tournament like this.
And on another note, you can see why a lot of these big tournaments lately keep trying to "protect" big name players and do lots of "invite-only" formats. It's impossible for already established big names to always win 100% of their games, and a lot of them are more hyped up then their actual current skill level. SC2 is very volatile and the skill difference is not much between top players, who can all take games off of each other.
People should stop being so negative about TSL3 I definitely agree. It has one of the best production values of most tournaments as of late, and ran the most fair qualifiers possible for entry into the tournament. Not many new leagues/tournaments lately can say the same.
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Well i thought tsl 3 is pretty sweet. it's nice to see some new faces
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I've enjoyed TSL 3 so much. Best tournament I've ever seen in gaming for me. I'm upset that people constantly belittle the achievements of some players just because their pick got knocked out. My bracket is probably one of the worst right now, but I couldn't be happier.
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I think the TSL3 has been amazing so far. All my favorite players lost and i still love the tournament. I agree that people should stop whining. Some of the feedback has been stupid. I hate the fact people have been crying out that foreigners are now 100 times better than the Koreans because of this one tournament!!! I also hate that people are ripping on the players that one and that they didnt deserve it. They did deserve it, they won on that day and deserve some praise for it!
despite my plea for everyone holding hands and getting along, I believe that many of the foreign players that did knock out Korean favorites in this tournament would not even qualify for code A.
so congratz to the winners! they deserve their victories. long live the TSL!
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People are overrating the quality of play we've seen so far but the games have definitely been entertaining. It's unreasonable to expect high level play until Ro8 or something anyway, no need to pretend everyone played fantastically.
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OP, you've never seen fans before? Making excuses is basically what they do. Some people are just pessimistic.
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I agree dude. The whiners and complainers are annoying. I usually just follow the LR thread while watching matches and I get tired of skipping pages and pages of complaints. That's not really that important though because...
...TSL3 has been so amazing! I think it literally has some of the best games of SC2 I've ever watched. I'm so bummed that there won't be any games next week. Maybe the MLG can also be super awesome.
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All I gotta say on the matter, watch MC's play and read his interviews. If you want to BM you gotta have results to back it up and damn does he put people in his place. I loved how he commented about Ciara then when he won he complained about the lack of manners Ciara had, that was hilarious.
Anyway, the matches are quite good there are some latency issues but as Jinro mentioned if you practice on the servers they are playable (once again MC completely owned, why can't the others?)
- Fanboys need to stop being so die hard and just appreciate good starcraft, if your player happens to lose just take it like a man, it's not like they are retiring after 1 bo3 loss.
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Thanks for this post OP. I feel pretty similar about the results and I'm really excited to watch the players I'm unfamiliar with.
People can say what they want about CrunCher but one thing is for sure, he punked IdrA in the games and in his hilarious ee han BM timing about as good as anyone could ever dream of. That was a moment that will live forever. That is what the TSL is all about.
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I dont have a problem with the winners, they went out and played the game, and won. That is fine, but this tournament tells me the this game is rather ridiculous. It is obviously too easy for pro level.
The koreans and GSL-ers probably practice at least twice as some as the "no names", and even if practice time is on par I guarantee that their practice is alot more effective. Living in a house with many other top notch players going over every strategy and tactic possible while mastering the mechanics of the game.
Now I didnt expect every korean to go through, there will always be upsets, but my conclusion from the Ro32 is that the game does not reward hard work beyond a certain level. You master the mechanics and a few timings and basic strats, and you can do very well. The countless hours of working with teammates and breaking down the game as much as im sure they do in the pro-houses just is not worth it, and i find that very bad for the future of e-sports. This game is too random, and has too many forced builds (especially for zerg), and the game is simply not hard enough. people who play almost casually, compared to the koreans, can easily compete with people who literally discuss builds and practice for 10+ hours a day with others.
For example take QXC. He is obviously a very skilled player, but he is in school and that likely takes a good chunk of his time. He was against genius, who im sure has practiced much more, and likely effectively, than QXC.
This is not right in any sport, maybe the few really good natural players can win without practicing as much, but not like this. This is not good for SC2, it needs to become more difficult such that the training regime shown in korea will actually pay off.
On that note, I am not bashing the winners as they played the game and won, so congratulations to them. But i do think that alot of the players that won did not know nearly as much about the game as whom they beat, and that the simplicity of SC2 is what let them play as if they are equally skilled. Take cruncher for example, in game 2 he was outclassed so hard that if i only saw that much i would wonder why he was even in the tournament. In game 1 and 3 though, he simply just used easy builds that zerg has alot of trouble holding off, regardless of who is playing it. But congrats to him, as that was just epic lol.
TL:DR;
1) Games is way too easy for pro level
2) Practice does not pay off like it should in competitions where there is so much money on the line
3) Winners won fair and square, but I feel that they are still not as good at all as whom they beat and won because of point 2) and the randomness of the game.
4) Looking forward to rest of tournament, GL to players.
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First of all let me say that you're right about TLers showing a disturbing amount of disrespect and evidencing a huge entitlement complex. You're absolutely right. And let me also say that I just wrote a similar blog yesterday about the negativity. So please don't think that I don't sympathize completely. I just wanted to talk a little bit about a certain section of your post that I think will cause as many problems as it will solve.
On March 28 2011 08:32 Node wrote:
Hate to break it to you guys, but if NesTea, FruitDealer, MVP, IdrA, Jinro, HuK, Strelok, Ciara, Loner, Genius, NightEnD, Ret, Fenix, Haypro, ZeeRaX, or TLO were the better players on the day they lost, they would have won their games. Being a better player doesn't mean that you're stronger in long macro games, that you've got godlike micro, that you've got better multitasking, that your APM is higher, that you picked the "overpowered" race, or any combination of the above. If you're a better player, you win. If anything else mattered, then we wouldn't play the damn game -- we would pit players against a Very Easy AI, and whoever has a higher APM after fifteen minutes of pumping drones wins. There are too many variables in a game of StarCraft to declare an arbitrary combination of them an approximation of "skill". Skill wins games. Period.
See I tend to think that a hard-line stance like this one (i.e.: the winner is the better player by definition) fails to accurately reflect the situation just as badly as the hard-line fanboy stance (i.e.: so-and-so only lost because of lag or imbalance or a coin-flip build order). Both extremes, predictably enough, are incorrect and inflammatory. The truth is somewhere in between them.
I mean can’t you think of literally dozens of legitimate reasons why a superior player might lose to an inferior player? But in your post you’re insisting that the winner is ipso facto the “more skilled” of the two, at least “on that day.”
That’s kind of strange idea to me. What if a player wins because he maphacks? Is he more skilled on that day? What if a player wins because his opponent has a heart attack? Did skill win the day? One if one player wins because his opponent becomes violently ill or is playing in subzero temperature or is blindfolded? What if tomorrow Blizzard patched SC2 so that zerglings had 2000 health—would all the one sided beatdowns of Protoss and Terrans be most parsimoniously explained in terms of the newfound skill of the Zerg users? Do you see what I mean?
These examples are extreme and ridiculous hypotheticals! Of course! I agree. But that’s why they’re good responses to the extreme notion that the better player on a given day always wins his game. There are real factors that play into who wins a game other than skill and to ignore them is to think in the same type of unhelpful, simplistic terms that makes the partisan rhetoric of aggrieved fanboys so obnoxious to yours and my ears.
You’re right about “skill” being a complex and various concept. So then let’s not turn it around and treat it like it can be accurately determined by a simple win/loss litmus test.
Look: I totally agree with you that the negative attitudes certain viewers have expressed do not reflect well on our community. I totally agree that it can be a real buzzkill at times. I totally agree with you that it’s annoying to listen to the sort of transparent excuses people are offering in defense of their chosen hero. But let’s not radicalize in the opposite direction and start making similarly insupportable statements to defend the status quo. That’s called being a reactionary.
Let’s instead focus on the TSL for what it is, a pretty badass tournament that’s exhibiting a lot of really, in my opinion, interesting games. And let’s remember that this tournament, or any tournament really, definitely takes skill to win but that things like luck and contest rules/conditions and the circumstances of a given player’s life and the current state of the game and the current state of the (forgive me, Chill!) metagame all factor into as well—to various extents. Let’s not oversimplify in either direction.
Enjoying the TSL (or anything really!) is not about being “right,” its about appreciating what you happen to find most beautiful or interesting or cool about it. Let’s leave all of these antagonistic positions like that player A lost because he was cheated by fate or that player B won because SC2 is played in some perfect vacuum where only skill matters. Let’s leave off the debates. Try our best to ignore those partisans who simply can’t stop complaining. And just appreciate the insanity and wonder of the TSL3 for what it is.
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If theres any argument towards the training regiment in Korea vs the foreigners acting as a reason for them to be superior I would have probably had QXC vs Genius as last on my list for a reference. Don't get me wrong, I think Genius is a great player, possibly underrated slightly but I have begun to feel his games under pressure situations such as in the GSL or TSL have become very disappointing.
Practice doesn't always mean you'll compete well in the important games. Take Joe Thornton from the San Jose sharks in hockey. Supposedly he's a great player who has put many years into playing hockey at a high level but many would argue that he's a liability in the playoffs who does not have the will to win the important games. This is what I've been seeing out of Genius lately. I'm under the impression that he was outplayed in every aspect of both games, micro, macro etc.
Heck, you could Mondragon as a great example here. From what I saw from other threads, he didn't have much practice in BW before TSL2 and was beating seasoned players who had been practicing hard for TSL2. (Might be wrong on this**)
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"Hate to break it to you guys, but if NesTea, FruitDealer, MVP, IdrA, Jinro, HuK, Strelok, Ciara, Loner, Genius, NightEnD, Ret, Fenix, Haypro, ZeeRaX, or TLO were the better players on the day they lost"
Thats the thing, idra WAS the better player on the day he lost... thats why people are complaining, fairly simple.
User was temp banned for this post.
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people just don't like better players losing. seems simple enough. being a winner and a better player in a single best of 3 doesn't absolutely make you a better overall player than your opponent so people are mad.
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The fact that all my favorites have been eliminated doesn't detract from the awesomeness of the tournament, but it does detract from my enjoyment of the tournament so much that I'll only watch a limited amount of the rest of it. That's just my (and some others') opinion, and that's all they're saying, not that the whole tournament is shitty.
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I laughed so hard when IdrA lost to Cruncher even though I voted IdrA.
I suppose IdrA will never learn from his BMing in the future... his just gonna say "that's just the way it is..."
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On March 28 2011 12:48 Warrice wrote:
"Hate to break it to you guys, but if NesTea, FruitDealer, MVP, IdrA, Jinro, HuK, Strelok, Ciara, Loner, Genius, NightEnD, Ret, Fenix, Haypro, ZeeRaX, or TLO were the better players on the day they lost"
Thats the thing, idra WAS the better player on the day he lost... thats why people are complaining, fairly simple. Better in an overall sense. He definitely wasn't better in those games.
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Open a local newspaper the day after the town's/state/whatever sports team loses in a tournament/gets knocked out of playoffs. How many people still watch and follow as closely after your favorite is eliminated?
This isnt anything new, and unfortunately not something that is going to go away anytime soon.
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I was hoping Idra would win, but
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The majority of SC2 fans are young and still blinded by thier ideals of fairness, equality, love, freedom and other notions that quite often do not actually work like we want in real life. Look at any sport, does the best player always win? NFL, NHL, Premiere League, Tennis, Boxing and whatever you want. Competition is not "fair" in so far as having the "best" player or team always winning, or even the team/player playing the best winning.
How many here have not seen a football game where one team played brilliantly but just could not seem to get the damn ball into the goal, and then see the defensive team score a goal on thier one and only attack in the entire game? In Boxing one boxer can totally outbox the other boxer only to suffer an unlucky KO, or even worse TKO.
Fairness comes most into play in games such as golf, track and field, swimming and similar, where each competitor is competing alone and the the result is compared to other individual results.
In starcraft it is even more confusing since not only are there a vastnnumber of strategies and playstyles, there is also 3 different races.
That being said something struck me after watching the Idra vs Cruncher games. I just came fresh out of watching the GSTL and there Tastosis talked a bit about snipers in SC2, a player whoose style is perfect for taking out another players style and with the implication of taking out a stronger player.
Now what is Idra strenght? Awesome macro, superb game knowledge, great nerves. (my opinion)
Idras weakness? I would say strong "all-inninsh" pushes in early and midgame, he likes to make small adjustments to his play when sometimes you just need to make a huge adjustement. Also, his micro is not awesome, or maybe it is and his decisions (tactics) in theese small engaments are not awesome.
Crunchers strenght: Strong early and mid game pushes. Comes from Wc3 and has shown superb micro and decision making (tactics) in the engagements.
Had i been a coach in a Team League i might have considered Cruncher a very good sniper to put up against Idra, he might not be as good a player overall but his style should work very well against Idra, assuming his skill is not to far behind Idras.
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On March 28 2011 12:14 HULKAMANIA wrote:First of all let me say that you're right about TLers showing a disturbing amount of disrespect and evidencing a huge entitlement complex. You're absolutely right. And let me also say that I just wrote a similar blog yesterday about the negativity. So please don't think that I don't sympathize completely. I just wanted to talk a little bit about a certain section of your post that I think will cause as many problems as it will solve. Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 08:32 Node wrote:
Hate to break it to you guys, but if NesTea, FruitDealer, MVP, IdrA, Jinro, HuK, Strelok, Ciara, Loner, Genius, NightEnD, Ret, Fenix, Haypro, ZeeRaX, or TLO were the better players on the day they lost, they would have won their games. Being a better player doesn't mean that you're stronger in long macro games, that you've got godlike micro, that you've got better multitasking, that your APM is higher, that you picked the "overpowered" race, or any combination of the above. If you're a better player, you win. If anything else mattered, then we wouldn't play the damn game -- we would pit players against a Very Easy AI, and whoever has a higher APM after fifteen minutes of pumping drones wins. There are too many variables in a game of StarCraft to declare an arbitrary combination of them an approximation of "skill". Skill wins games. Period. See I tend to think that a hard-line stance like this one (i.e.: the winner is the better player by definition) fails to accurately reflect the situation just as badly as the hard-line fanboy stance (i.e.: so-and-so only lost because of lag or imbalance or a coin-flip build order). Both extremes, predictably enough, are incorrect and inflammatory. The truth is somewhere in between them. I mean can’t you think of literally dozens of legitimate reasons why a superior player might lose to an inferior player? But in your post you’re insisting that the winner is ipso facto the “more skilled” of the two, at least “on that day.” That’s kind of strange idea to me. What if a player wins because he maphacks? Is he more skilled on that day? What if a player wins because his opponent has a heart attack? Did skill win the day? One if one player wins because his opponent becomes violently ill or is playing in subzero temperature or is blindfolded? What if tomorrow Blizzard patched SC2 so that zerglings had 2000 health—would all the one sided beatdowns of Protoss and Terrans be most parsimoniously explained in terms of the newfound skill of the Zerg users? Do you see what I mean? These examples are extreme and ridiculous hypotheticals! Of course! I agree. But that’s why they’re good responses to the extreme notion that the better player on a given day always wins his game. There are real factors that play into who wins a game other than skill and to ignore them is to think in the same type of unhelpful, simplistic terms that makes the partisan rhetoric of aggrieved fanboys so obnoxious to yours and my ears. You’re right about “skill” being a complex and various concept. So then let’s not turn it around and treat it like it can be accurately determined by a simple win/loss litmus test. Look: I totally agree with you that the negative attitudes certain viewers have expressed do not reflect well on our community. I totally agree that it can be a real buzzkill at times. I totally agree with you that it’s annoying to listen to the sort of transparent excuses people are offering in defense of their chosen hero. But let’s not radicalize in the opposite direction and start making similarly insupportable statements to defend the status quo. That’s called being a reactionary. Let’s instead focus on the TSL for what it is, a pretty badass tournament that’s exhibiting a lot of really, in my opinion, interesting games. And let’s remember that this tournament, or any tournament really, definitely takes skill to win but that things like luck and contest rules/conditions and the circumstances of a given player’s life and the current state of the game and the current state of the (forgive me, Chill!) metagame all factor into as well—to various extents. Let’s not oversimplify in either direction. Enjoying the TSL (or anything really!) is not about being “right,” its about appreciating what you happen to find most beautiful or interesting or cool about it. Let’s leave all of these antagonistic positions like that player A lost because he was cheated by fate or that player B won because SC2 is played in some perfect vacuum where only skill matters. Let’s leave off the debates. Try our best to ignore those partisans who simply can’t stop complaining. And just appreciate the insanity and wonder of the TSL3 for what it is.
QFT...agree 100% here. While you can't deny that lag did play a role in the KR games, it's hard to prove that that is was the only reason for the result (for example, could the KR players have prepared for it better?). However, at the same time, you can't proclaim "the better player won" because there ARE inherent factors that affect skill, as HULKAMANIA stated. So let's just enjoy the rest of the games and the results and let the victor be the victor, you can't really tell who's better than who in a Bo3, let alone if there's lag and other issues present. TSL is really a fantastic production in my opinion!
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9070 Posts
Idra isn't anymore like the undisputed, hands down best foreigner in the world. There are so many great guys out there right now, with far more momentum. What fuels Idra's attitude, even back in his BW days, is that he is brightly regarded as THE best. Ofc its all part of his character as I'm sure last night, ppl that tuned in to cheer for him were just as many as those who watched the TSL because they wanted to see Idra lose.
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Pretty sure EG.IdrA got what he had coming. Practice, shut your mouth, and play the game like CrunCher did. Don't make excuses for yourself just admit you weren't the better player and move on. I'm sick of all the BM and all the BM his fanboys bring. Start becoming a STARCRAFT fan and just enjoy the free, high end, amazing content that TL provides for us.
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This happens in every sport. Spectators blame the referees etc because they're rooting for their favourite team. It's just natural man, I love IdrA but you just gotta chill. MorroW, nony and qxc FIGHTING!!!
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I for one was pleased the tournament is highly competitive between Koreans and Non Koreans. It adds interest to the tournament when the "underdogs" do well. Its good for E-Sports generally and its good for the TSL 3. Would Crunchers have lost 3-2 in a 5 game series or 4-3 in a 7 game series? Maybe. But, as someone pointed out, it was a three game series and won fair an square.
One thing I think the TSL has showed is that there are different styles of play which when put into the same game produce results that are"unexpected." But don't think even the biggest "lag influenced the game" believer could deny that Adellscott having 2/2 and eventually 2/3 upgrades against MVP's 1/1(maybe) upgrades was a major contributor to the victory. Similarly, QXC out upgraded and out expanded Genius(in the first game).
Maybe this is an example of stylistic differences in Korean v. Non Korean play. But it seems like it emphasis that strong fundamentals(upgrades and expanding properly) exhibited in at least the QXC/Adell games was a primary difference in the games along with what I would describe as some very innovate approaches to the match up by QXC and Adell.
TL:DR- Its good for the game to have diversity and for the results to be unpredictable.QXC and Adell didn't do anything other than play their own brand of macro game and won. Its not as if they 6 pooled or 4 gated.
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Watching idra get stomped has been a top 5 SC2 moment for me. There's nothing like the big mouth favourite getting destroyed by the modest underdog.
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Its almost like history repeats itself... the game may change but the player doesn't.
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On March 29 2011 04:51 ZeaL. wrote:Its almost like history repeats itself... the game may change but the player doesn't.
I cannot wait for the Day 4 recap and interview post to come out. It should be an amusing read.
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omg rekrul. you speak my mind!
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It's not the people that hate on the winners, it's the overall hating and judging and reading to much into online BO3's. If player A wins over player B it doesn't mean that he is better, it definately does not mean that player A's nation is better than player B's nation, it doesn't mean that OMG LAG IS SO TERRIBLE or what have you. He won, and thats it.
Oh, and "If you're a better player, you win"? Sorry dude, thats ridiculous. That would mean that if two people playing each other, one of them wins 100%. There are a lot of factors that decide game of starcraft, and being the better player is only one of them.
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EPT
