• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 11:09
CET 17:09
KST 01:09
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Dark completes military service, returns to SC28[BSL23] RO16 Group Stage19Weekly Cups (Nov 2-8): herO back on top?2Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175
StarCraft 2
General
No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Dark completes military service, returns to SC2 Greetings.. Serral's getting trashed by New Catsle's Mind Weekly Cups (Nov 2-8): herO back on top?
Tourneys
Dark returns! GSL CK #7 4v4 Team Battle (Nov 19) Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) soO & FanTaSy return! SC2 Kevin Scrim 4v4 (Nov 16) RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 Tasteless Time Warp: SC Evo Showmatch (May 25)
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps Starcraft 2 Advance [D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 551 Robotic Revival Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles
Brood War
General
List of top players active on ShieldBattery Starcraft:Brood War Discord Servers [BSL23] RO16 Group Stage Starcraft player cRuZa Passed away. Recommended BW Settings for Mouse and Video
Tourneys
2v2v2v2 Tournament Stage 1: Community Poll [BSL23] Ro16 Group C - Sunday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 CSLAN 4 is Coming!
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Pluto's TvP 5Marine 2Medic Push Infested Terran strategies in 2026 Nuke strategy worked in K-League 2026-11-09
Other Games
General Games
Free Space RTS Game, optimised f. Phone/Tablet etc Nintendo Switch Thread List of Game Threads The PlayStation 5 Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Can Game Data Analytics Help Players Improvements
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Trading/Investing Thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Dating: How's your luck?
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
VCT 2027 America Kickoff LAT…
anakin.
The time I organised my…
AssyrianKing
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 11402 users

RPS in RTS

Blogs > AirbladeOrange
Post a Reply
AirbladeOrange
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2574 Posts
March 11 2011 20:17 GMT
#1
This was a chance find while I was reading about Rock Paper Scissors strategy. It's funny how detailed it gets even though it was written for someone who knows nothing of Starcraft. It also seems appropriate because on the forums I hear many people complain about Rock Paper Scissors in Starcraft 2. However, this is about Brood War. I'm no Brood War expert, but this article clearly fails to take scouting into consideration. Regardless of its faults it still is worth checking out. Here it is.

PS It also has a section talking about fighting games, specifically Virtua FIghter.

RPS in RTS

Real-time strategy games such as StarCraft also use the RPS system. Like fighting games there's the concept of RPS on large scale and a small scale. On the small scale, particular units are designed to counter each other in a RPS way. A marine dies to a guardian. A guardian dies to a corsair. A corsair dies to a marine. Abstractly, there are 6 categories of unit. Ground units can either attack 1) other ground units, 2) air units, or 3) both. Air units can attack 4) other air units, 5) ground units, or 6) both. Pure ground-to-ground units usually beat both other types of ground units, yet lose to both types of air units that can attack ground. Similarly, pure air-to-air units usually beat both other types of air units, but loose to both types of ground units than can attack air.

RPS is not limited purely to units countering each other though. Real-time strategy games also have the concept of trading off powerful units now for a strong economy now, which leads to even more powerful units later. So on one extreme, a Zerg player in StarCraft might sacrifice his entire economy to get a quick attack force ("6 pool" is the term). This will likely beat a player who chose the other extreme of playing for pure economy and no immediate attack force (by building double oven triple hatcheries). A moderate build (pool on 9th peon, one sunken colony) will likely defend against the early attacker's rush, though. Surviving the rush, the moderate build will have a much superior economy and win in the end. However, this moderate build will produce an inferior economy to the player who built 2 or 3 hatcheries and went for pure economy.

In Starcraft, the early rush is a very, very risky strategy. It's all or nothing. You'll either win right away off it, or your rush will fail and you'll almost surely lose. Because of this, the early rush isn't all that common (depending on the map), but the very threat that the opponent might play the early rush is enough to stop you from playing for pure economy every time.

Finally, notice how hard it is to determine the actual payoffs in StarCraft. If your correct guess results in a battle between a few enemy Zealots and several of your Marines, what is the payoff? How many Marines will you lose? It depends on the micromanagement skill of both players, the terrain, and whether each player even focuses on the battle at all (maybe there's a more pressing battle somewhere else on the map). A lot of the goodness of StarCraft's design is that it's full of RPS with unequal and unclear payoffs.

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/rock-paper-scissors-in-strategy-games.html

*
mikeymoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada7170 Posts
March 11 2011 20:39 GMT
#2
Oh Sirlin... I knew this looked familiar.
o_x | Ow. | 1003 ESPORTS dollars | If you have any questions about bans please PM Kennigit
MiniRoman
Profile Blog Joined September 2003
Canada3953 Posts
March 11 2011 20:54 GMT
#3
T.T fighting gamers may want their genre to be as deep as RTS.. but it isn't. Sirlin with flawed logic does not make it so
Nak Allstar.
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-11 20:57:41
March 11 2011 20:56 GMT
#4
I think we have already said it before, Sirlin shouldn't be allowed to talk about RTS, especially broodwar.
A D- player is more knowledgeable than him.
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3137 Posts
March 11 2011 21:13 GMT
#5
huh... this is pretty obvious stuff except super dumbed down
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary26004 Posts
March 11 2011 21:18 GMT
#6
Have you seen Sirlin's later posts on RTS? He has no autority on talking about the genre. He can talk about the mind of gaming, but as soon as he crosses into RTS specifics he loses all credibility for me.
Moderator
intotheheart
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada33091 Posts
March 11 2011 21:39 GMT
#7
Except it doesn't exactly work that way, since maxed 200/200 armies attacking each other can typically vary in terms of "effectiveness," as the skill level of the players differ. RPS is luck and mind-games.
kiss kiss fall in love
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
March 11 2011 21:57 GMT
#8
Haha, this is such tunnel vision. Maybe some units are better at killing certain units than others, but that doesn't make it rock paper sissors, especially when in StarCraft you are not forced to engage enemy armies if you don't want to. Carriers counter lurkers? Sure, but that doesn't help when your carriers are on one side of the map and the lurkers are in the Protoss' mineral line. There are no real counters in SC because every unit has a number of uses that goes beyond just attacking into the enemy. It really takes someone with no RTS experience to think of StarCraft only in terms of whether the units win in a confrontation vs one another.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
TheNessman
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4158 Posts
March 11 2011 22:17 GMT
#9
hahaha, the OP seemed pretty legit and logical, nothing new, but a simple way of explaining some of the basic ideas in SC,

What makes him so discredited? Link?
~~! youtube.com/xmungam1 !~~
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
March 11 2011 23:16 GMT
#10
The "why TL think that Sirlin is a joke" thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108326
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
23:00
OSC 5000
EmpressLilyy67
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
LamboSC2 342
ProTech156
SHIN 35
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 4905
Rain 1672
Jaedong 1447
EffOrt 792
BeSt 726
Shuttle 693
Mini 587
Light 368
FanTaSy 364
Larva 319
[ Show more ]
Rush 243
ggaemo 217
Stork 214
Dewaltoss 168
hero 143
firebathero 120
Leta 94
Killer 65
Pusan 64
Hyun 62
Sea.KH 55
HiyA 50
Mong 42
JYJ 36
Movie 26
Yoon 26
Terrorterran 22
Shinee 19
sorry 14
Hm[arnc] 13
yabsab 12
scan(afreeca) 10
Rock 9
zelot 8
Dota 2
Gorgc7110
qojqva2093
syndereN378
Counter-Strike
jkaem148
edward31
Heroes of the Storm
crisheroes432
Trikslyr25
Other Games
FrodaN3101
singsing2162
B2W.Neo978
Lowko360
Liquid`VortiX199
XaKoH 191
byalli191
KnowMe189
djWHEAT129
ArmadaUGS99
DeMusliM92
Mew2King74
ToD68
CosmosSc2 20
Railgan7
QueenE1
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 47
• poizon28 16
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix9
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV568
League of Legends
• Jankos2496
• TFBlade1061
Other Games
• Shiphtur305
Upcoming Events
OSC
7h 21m
ByuN vs MaxPax
herO vs Krystianer
Percival vs Shameless
LetaleX vs YoungYakov
Nicoract vs Gerald
GgMaChine vs ArT
CranKy Ducklings
17h 51m
WardiTV Invitational
19h 51m
ByuN vs SHIN
MaxPax vs Solar
Clem vs TBD
herO vs TBD
Lambo vs TBD
Rogue vs TBD
IPSL
1d
TerrOr vs IJ_Terran
rasowy vs Hazorath
BSL
1d 3h
TerrOr vs OyAji
UltrA vs Gosudark
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 17h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 19h
IPSL
2 days
Art_Of_Turtle vs KameZerg
Radley vs George
BSL
2 days
Artosis vs Dewalt
Ret vs Tech
SOOP
2 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
PiGosaur Cup
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
GSL
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
KCM Race Survival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-12
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
Individual League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026

Upcoming

YSL S4
Sector 591
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
StarCraft2 Weekly Open Tournament 2026 Grand Finals
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.