• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:35
CEST 12:35
KST 19:35
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles0[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China7Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL63Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?13FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event22
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Statistics for vetoed/disliked maps Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays Korean Starcraft League Week 77
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
ASL20 Preliminary Maps SC uni coach streams logging into betting site Player “Jedi” cheat on CSL Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2024! Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 695 users

RPS in RTS

Blogs > AirbladeOrange
Post a Reply
AirbladeOrange
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2573 Posts
March 11 2011 20:17 GMT
#1
This was a chance find while I was reading about Rock Paper Scissors strategy. It's funny how detailed it gets even though it was written for someone who knows nothing of Starcraft. It also seems appropriate because on the forums I hear many people complain about Rock Paper Scissors in Starcraft 2. However, this is about Brood War. I'm no Brood War expert, but this article clearly fails to take scouting into consideration. Regardless of its faults it still is worth checking out. Here it is.

PS It also has a section talking about fighting games, specifically Virtua FIghter.

RPS in RTS

Real-time strategy games such as StarCraft also use the RPS system. Like fighting games there's the concept of RPS on large scale and a small scale. On the small scale, particular units are designed to counter each other in a RPS way. A marine dies to a guardian. A guardian dies to a corsair. A corsair dies to a marine. Abstractly, there are 6 categories of unit. Ground units can either attack 1) other ground units, 2) air units, or 3) both. Air units can attack 4) other air units, 5) ground units, or 6) both. Pure ground-to-ground units usually beat both other types of ground units, yet lose to both types of air units that can attack ground. Similarly, pure air-to-air units usually beat both other types of air units, but loose to both types of ground units than can attack air.

RPS is not limited purely to units countering each other though. Real-time strategy games also have the concept of trading off powerful units now for a strong economy now, which leads to even more powerful units later. So on one extreme, a Zerg player in StarCraft might sacrifice his entire economy to get a quick attack force ("6 pool" is the term). This will likely beat a player who chose the other extreme of playing for pure economy and no immediate attack force (by building double oven triple hatcheries). A moderate build (pool on 9th peon, one sunken colony) will likely defend against the early attacker's rush, though. Surviving the rush, the moderate build will have a much superior economy and win in the end. However, this moderate build will produce an inferior economy to the player who built 2 or 3 hatcheries and went for pure economy.

In Starcraft, the early rush is a very, very risky strategy. It's all or nothing. You'll either win right away off it, or your rush will fail and you'll almost surely lose. Because of this, the early rush isn't all that common (depending on the map), but the very threat that the opponent might play the early rush is enough to stop you from playing for pure economy every time.

Finally, notice how hard it is to determine the actual payoffs in StarCraft. If your correct guess results in a battle between a few enemy Zealots and several of your Marines, what is the payoff? How many Marines will you lose? It depends on the micromanagement skill of both players, the terrain, and whether each player even focuses on the battle at all (maybe there's a more pressing battle somewhere else on the map). A lot of the goodness of StarCraft's design is that it's full of RPS with unequal and unclear payoffs.

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/rock-paper-scissors-in-strategy-games.html

*
mikeymoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada7170 Posts
March 11 2011 20:39 GMT
#2
Oh Sirlin... I knew this looked familiar.
o_x | Ow. | 1003 ESPORTS dollars | If you have any questions about bans please PM Kennigit
MiniRoman
Profile Blog Joined September 2003
Canada3953 Posts
March 11 2011 20:54 GMT
#3
T.T fighting gamers may want their genre to be as deep as RTS.. but it isn't. Sirlin with flawed logic does not make it so
Nak Allstar.
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-11 20:57:41
March 11 2011 20:56 GMT
#4
I think we have already said it before, Sirlin shouldn't be allowed to talk about RTS, especially broodwar.
A D- player is more knowledgeable than him.
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3126 Posts
March 11 2011 21:13 GMT
#5
huh... this is pretty obvious stuff except super dumbed down
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25979 Posts
March 11 2011 21:18 GMT
#6
Have you seen Sirlin's later posts on RTS? He has no autority on talking about the genre. He can talk about the mind of gaming, but as soon as he crosses into RTS specifics he loses all credibility for me.
Moderator
intotheheart
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada33091 Posts
March 11 2011 21:39 GMT
#7
Except it doesn't exactly work that way, since maxed 200/200 armies attacking each other can typically vary in terms of "effectiveness," as the skill level of the players differ. RPS is luck and mind-games.
kiss kiss fall in love
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
March 11 2011 21:57 GMT
#8
Haha, this is such tunnel vision. Maybe some units are better at killing certain units than others, but that doesn't make it rock paper sissors, especially when in StarCraft you are not forced to engage enemy armies if you don't want to. Carriers counter lurkers? Sure, but that doesn't help when your carriers are on one side of the map and the lurkers are in the Protoss' mineral line. There are no real counters in SC because every unit has a number of uses that goes beyond just attacking into the enemy. It really takes someone with no RTS experience to think of StarCraft only in terms of whether the units win in a confrontation vs one another.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
TheNessman
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4158 Posts
March 11 2011 22:17 GMT
#9
hahaha, the OP seemed pretty legit and logical, nothing new, but a simple way of explaining some of the basic ideas in SC,

What makes him so discredited? Link?
~~! youtube.com/xmungam1 !~~
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
March 11 2011 23:16 GMT
#10
The "why TL think that Sirlin is a joke" thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=108326
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 26m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Creator 99
Rex 5
StarCraft: Brood War
Hyuk 759
Pusan 491
Soma 457
Stork 309
Jaedong 205
ZerO 170
Sharp 160
Larva 134
sorry 129
Soulkey 98
[ Show more ]
sSak 98
Shine 65
yabsab 51
Snow 39
Aegong 39
Free 27
zelot 26
JulyZerg 25
Mind 24
IntoTheRainbow 10
ivOry 3
Dota 2
XcaliburYe586
XaKoH 466
syndereN92
League of Legends
singsing182
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss675
x6flipin382
allub147
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King215
Other Games
Pyrionflax305
crisheroes265
SortOf152
rGuardiaN45
ZerO(Twitch)16
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick29158
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota2227
League of Legends
• HappyZerGling100
Other Games
• WagamamaTV166
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
26m
Replay Cast
13h 26m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
23h 26m
WardiTV European League
1d 5h
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
1d 13h
The PondCast
1d 23h
WardiTV European League
2 days
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
5 days
FEL
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 20
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.