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On February 26 2011 16:14 barkles wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 13:18 Voros wrote:High Templar
- Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed. The last PTR sent the community into an uproar with the nerf to fungal; this is no different, and the removal of the amulet has no chance whatsoever of being implemented in the game. At present, Templar are primarily used as a means of crippling Terran who invest too heavily in Vikings to support their tier 1 infantry armies. Pre-PTR changes, they're more APM-intensive than colossi and take forever to become viable due to the necessity of both the storm and amulet research. In short, they're less useful than colossi in 90% of situations, the other 10% generally being storm drops and cases in which colossi or corrupters were overproduced. Removing the amulet upgrade will do nothing but ensure that Protoss never make Templar. This change will never see the light of day. ...because GOD FORBID high templar not be able to cast storm the SECOND they come into existence. That could NEVER work in ANY game! ...oh wait, there was a game called starcraft broodwar?
SC2 isn't BW, and it's a mistake to think that it is or should be the same game.
Seriously, if there was no chance that this wasn't going to be included in the game they wouldn't have put it in the PTR.
I'm contending that the outcry of Protoss will at least rival, if not surpass that of the zerg when Blizzard tested out the nerf to fungal. They're both massive overreactions that will create more problems than they solve (though I'm still unclear on what nerfing fungal was supposed to accomplish), and players are going to realize that once marauders start sniping nexus with impunity again. Many Terran players don't appreciate how strong their drop capability is and how pivotal the amulet is to defending against it. I suspect the chargelot buff was intended to compensate for that somewhat, but it's hard to imagine it making up for the loss of instant storm on defense.
Re: army battles, I have no issue with amulet-empowered templar immediately warping in and destroying an MMM ball--tier 1 units shouldn't expect to be viable against a tier 3 protoss who has invested in two costly, highly specialized upgrades. If storm was decimating a heavy mech composition, I'd be more sympathetic to the terran plight, but it seems to me that Terrans need to stop trying to MMM their way to victory at 25 minutes into the game when they know storm tech is on the field.
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On February 26 2011 14:03 MrRicewife wrote:
Have you ever dropped a storm on scvs before?.... Blizzard clearly didn't want HT to be used the way they were being used. They were just spammed when protoss was suppose to lose a game.
Check out some of white-ra replays. He loves to do HT harass, and god damn does it work well. Maybe we will see warp prism speed researched more?
I think you've hit the nail on the head. I watched a couple dozen White-Ra replays a few days ago, and he uses the storm drop to devastating effect in PvT. There was one game against QXC where he obliterated half the Terran economy in the blink of an eye and rolled him a few minutes later as a result. I thought that storm drops were the Protoss answer to blue-flame hellions in terms of mineral line harassment, but Blizzard must perceive some kind of imbalance here.
So wait... Does that mean when I make it to master, I can grind as hard as I want? I know there is a chance of being demoted, but if you dont... you just rack wins and look pimp?
I think they're hiding the non-masters W-L records to prevent more casual players from being disheartened by their win ratio. From what I understand, when you make it into masters, your W-L record reappears (maybe we'll be experienced enough to deal with the psychological damage of being 800-790).
On February 26 2011 16:46 Ordained wrote:
I agree with everything you posted except for the damage buff to Fungal Growth. I do not see this even being noticed being only 10 damage. Fungal Growth is still an expensive ability and I think should still be saved for defending.
Though I will still have to play around with it before I cast my judgement fully.
Other than that, thank you for typing your thoughts up, was a good read, glad to see people who arent whining.
Thanks for the kind words.
You're probably right, but I do anticipate fungal playing a more pivotal role in zerg's late-game composition in every facet of the game, offense and defense. The 11 extra damage against armored may not seem like much, but the new fungal's DPS is massively larger against armored units.
I'm thinking about the VR/Colossus deathball in particular: whereas with the old fungal you'd do 36 damage over 8 seconds (which barely amounts to tickling a Void Ray), the new version would allow zerg to do 94 damage in the same span of time at the cost of a little more APM. It seems like a great way of softening up Protoss shields before the big engagement, and I'm looking forward to seeing if it makes a difference in late-game ZvP.
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On February 26 2011 20:21 Voros wrote:
SC2 isn't BW, and it's a mistake to think that it is or should be the same game.
No, but it would be extremely foolish to disregard the almost perfect balance that was achieved in Broodwar with a very similar type of game, especially when some units have carried over in almost identical roles like the high templar has.
I'm contending that the outcry of Protoss will at least rival, if not surpass that of the zerg when Blizzard tested out the nerf to fungal. They're both massive overreactions that will create more problems than they solve (though I'm still unclear on what nerfing fungal was supposed to accomplish), and players are going to realize that once marauders start sniping nexus with impunity again. Many Terran players don't appreciate how strong their drop capability is and how pivotal the amulet is to defending against it. I suspect the chargelot buff was intended to compensate for that somewhat, but it's hard to imagine it making up for the loss of instant storm on defense.
Re: army battles, I have no issue with amulet-empowered templar immediately warping in and destroying an MMM ball--tier 1 units shouldn't expect to be viable against a tier 3 protoss who has invested in two costly, highly specialized upgrades. If storm was decimating a heavy mech composition, I'd be more sympathetic to the terran plight, but it seems to me that Terrans need to stop trying to MMM their way to victory at 25 minutes into the game when they know storm tech is on the field.
*sigh* I don't know where to start with this. I guess I'll begin with the "outcry" that we will be hearing about. Blizzard is patching for high level 1v1 play. Many high level Protoss players have voiced that they don't favor high templar play in PvT, at least not as the goal. Among these are Tyler and Artosis. Having said this, I do think that the complete removal of amulet is too much. I think the amulet upgrade should give HT +10 energy on warp-in and a slightly faster energy regen rate, or something along those lines.
Also, I don't know what game you're playing, but if I drop 8 marauders in a protoss base and they try to defend with only high templar I'm just giddy. Storm is simply not that good in small scale battles with high hit-point, fast units that are easily microed out of storm (read: marauder). It is more of an issue in large scale battles when there are enough storms to make perfect micro impossible.
To your comment about army battles: I don't have a problem with HTs wrecking MMM balls. What I DO have a problem with is when I take my three ghosts with the energy upgrade, place 3 perfect EMPs that get all the High Templar and a good portion of the army, and then lose the battle anyway because the protoss just warps in 5 more high templar and blanket storms. This is not about HT versus MMM. It's about HT versus ghosts, and the HTs are clearly winning this one.
When Protoss is relying on reinforcements for the majority of their DPS in battles, I think something is very wrong.
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No more viking flower? Damn it, this is so going to break the phantom mode games.
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On February 27 2011 05:36 barkles wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 20:21 Voros wrote:
SC2 isn't BW, and it's a mistake to think that it is or should be the same game.
No, but it would be extremely foolish to disregard the almost perfect balance that was achieved in Broodwar with a very similar type of game, especially when some units have carried over in almost identical roles like the high templar has.
The role is the same, but Blizzard is not trying to balance the role, but rather the relationship between the templar and other units. Believe it or not, but Protoss can't afford to have templar sitting around doing nothing for 45 seconds while waiting for enough energy to storm. Even given the danger of having my colossi sniped, I'd much rather have a useful colossus on the field that a useless templar whose tech tree has already cost me an arm and a leg while leading me down a dead-end tech path.
*sigh* I don't know where to start with this.
You can start by not sighing. Courtesy is a two-way street, and I'll give it to you if you do the same for me.
I guess I'll begin with the "outcry" that we will be hearing about. Blizzard is patching for high level 1v1 play. Many high level Protoss players have voiced that they don't favor high templar play in PvT, at least not as the goal. Among these are Tyler and Artosis. Having said this, I do think that the complete removal of amulet is too much. I think the amulet upgrade should give HT +10 energy on warp-in and a slightly faster energy regen rate, or something along those lines.
Also, I don't know what game you're playing, but if I drop 8 marauders in a protoss base and they try to defend with only high templar I'm just giddy. Storm is simply not that good in small scale battles with high hit-point, fast units that are easily microed out of storm (read: marauder). It is more of an issue in large scale battles when there are enough storms to make perfect micro impossible.
We're going to have to agree to disagree, because I routinely defend drops by warping in one or two templar to go with a handful of chargelots. The templar storm the mm and feedback the medivacs, and the zealots clean up what's left. To the best of my knowledge, templar/chargelot is the preferred reaction to any terran drop, and I don't usually lose important buildings unless my warp gates are on cool down.
In large-scale battles, the only scenario in which I'd opt for templar over colossus is when there are a ton of vikings or corrupters on the field, as tech switching between templar and colossi is often the difference between a win and a loss. No Protoss with more than 10 games under his belt *wants* to go templar--it's a worse unit and tech tree all the way around than Colossi, but you're forced to as a means of combating the typical dual-port viking or Select-style drop play that Terran loves so much. Removing the amulet forces Protoss to make Colossi work in every situation, as no one is going to invest a ton into a tech switch and mostly useless units that are just going to be EMPed seconds before his army is rolled. I'm 99% certain that this change would kill templar tech altogether, and that's why I don't think Blizzard will implement it when push comes to shove.
To your comment about army battles: I don't have a problem with HTs wrecking MMM balls. What I DO have a problem with is when I take my three ghosts with the energy upgrade, place 3 perfect EMPs that get all the High Templar and a good portion of the army, and then lose the battle anyway because the protoss just warps in 5 more high templar and blanket storms. This is not about HT versus MMM. It's about HT versus ghosts, and the HTs are clearly winning this one.
Disagree. Ghosts are absurdly, insanely powerful against Protoss to a degree unmatched by any other caster in the game. Early game, late game, you name it, ghosts own Protoss. At the very least, Terran can dodge storm damage with their infantry units; by contrast, a Protoss has zero opportunity to micro away from an EMP that will do 1000+ damage to shields in addition to draining all of the energy from sentries, templar, and phoenix without absolutely perfect feedback micro. If there's a problem unit in TvP, it's the ghost, not the templar.
What this objection comes down to is the belief that if you EMP a Toss army without being feedbacked first, you deserve to win the battle. That idea is anathema to me, as the micro required to feedback a small group of cloaked ghosts before they EMP your ball a half dozen times is ridiculously difficult. In your scenario, toss should lose the battle because 1) they couldn't feedback each individual ghost in time and 2) the range of feedback is not equal to that of emp + its perimeter of effect. Even if templar are warped in to Psy Storm your army to oblivion, you're missing the point that templar tech is supposed to eat infantry alive, regardless of whether your ghosts pull off a successful initial EMP or not.
If you don't enjoy having Protoss's T3 units kill your T1 army with a few T2 ghosts sprinkled in, try doing a tech switch into mech. Protoss often have to tech switch between Colossi and templar to survive in PvT, so why shouldn't terran bear the same burden?
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EPT
