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Behave in this topic or face the consequences. There will be strict moderation and little leeway granted so think before you post.
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On February 17 2011 00:13 des wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 21:02 Fir3fly wrote:
a friend of mine said "in the future, the white, straight, male is going to be the lowest and most oppressed of the minority groups" and i have to agree. im all for eqaulity, but everyone needs to know what that is.
Jesus fucking christ how do you say that out loud without a hint of irony and not want to kill yourself for being such a miserable piece of shit? Congrats to everyone on this thread for being lucky enough to be blind to your privilege and be able to think that whenever an oppressed group tries to assert its rights that you are somehow being oppressed.
You can't succumb to emotion when discussing something like this. I'm pretty sure almost everyone in the topic has made it clear they are against actual discrimination. The thing is that really doesn't happen nearly as much as people complain about it; and the feminist movement sets an absurd double standard that has nothing to do with discrimination.
There's no irony in that quote at all. There are so many "special privileges" out there for minorities that the non-minority IS becoming a lower and lower position in society. He's not saying the day is here, he's saying the trend is such that the day will eventually come.
If you disagree, how about some logic instead of profanity and insults?
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in the future, the brown, evolving (unsure on gender) zerg will be the lowest minority having to fight for buffs and calling imba on everything 
i think the article is more that the equal rights for women in golf (but why would you want to play golf?) that has led to increased costs for women golfers
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On February 17 2011 00:05 Haemonculus wrote:
Privilege may be blind to those who have it, but some of the replies here are just depressing.
QFT.
I think most people replying to this thread think that women are the ONLY one who believe that gender equality and feminism is right, but that's not true. I am a guy and I fully support the feminist movement. The thing is, many people will point to specific examples where feminists are radical, but in reality, most feminist ideas are quite palatable and make a lot of sense.
If you want to learn more, this is a pretty helpful list that illustrates the advantages of being male in a patriarchal society.
http://sap.mit.edu/content/pdf/male_privilege.pdf
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On February 17 2011 03:08 denzelz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:05 Haemonculus wrote:
Privilege may be blind to those who have it, but some of the replies here are just depressing. QFT. I think most people replying to this thread think that women are the ONLY one who believe that gender equality and feminism is right, but that's not true. I am a guy and I fully support the feminist movement. The thing is, many people will point to specific examples where feminists are radical, but in reality, most feminist ideas are quite palatable and make a lot of sense. If you want to learn more, this is a pretty list that illustrates the advantages of being male in a patriarchal society. http://sap.mit.edu/content/pdf/male_privilege.pdf
Perhaps living in one of the more "liberal" state and other factors considered has somewhat sheltered me from majority of the statements on that list, but a lot of them seem to be severely outdated or mostly irrelevant. A few of the statements appear to be true on first glance but there are no actual numbers or any percentage given, instead we are provided with a lot of "likely, chances, probably and in general". That list cannot be taken seriously at all.
Disclaimer, perhaps this is true in some part of the world, there is no doubt that that is very possible. It is however does not apply to everyone everywhere.
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Next time, I will wait for a girl to open the door for me.
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On February 17 2011 03:41 PetitCrabe wrote:
Next time, I will wait for a girl to open the door for me.
I hold the door for guys all the time. I don't see why this has anything to do with equality.
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On February 17 2011 01:10 telfire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:13 des wrote:On February 16 2011 21:02 Fir3fly wrote:
a friend of mine said "in the future, the white, straight, male is going to be the lowest and most oppressed of the minority groups" and i have to agree. im all for eqaulity, but everyone needs to know what that is.
Jesus fucking christ how do you say that out loud without a hint of irony and not want to kill yourself for being such a miserable piece of shit? Congrats to everyone on this thread for being lucky enough to be blind to your privilege and be able to think that whenever an oppressed group tries to assert its rights that you are somehow being oppressed. You can't succumb to emotion when discussing something like this. I'm pretty sure almost everyone in the topic has made it clear they are against actual discrimination. The thing is that really doesn't happen nearly as much as people complain about it; and the feminist movement sets an absurd double standard that has nothing to do with discrimination. There's no irony in that quote at all. There are so many "special privileges" out there for minorities that the non-minority IS becoming a lower and lower position in society. He's not saying the day is here, he's saying the trend is such that the day will eventually come. If you disagree, how about some logic instead of profanity and insults?
No, not everyone did say they are against discrimination. The remainder of the post I quoted is an example. What do you mean it really doesn't happen? Male privilege exists. A man and a woman, from the same circumstances and background, do not perform the same. This means if you control for all other factors, gender decides your success, favoring men. This comes from negative perception of women by men in power, by indoctrination of girls ("your worth correlates to your looks and your ability to please a man, not your individual talents") from a young age, by the perception by society as a whole of women as being sexual objects rather than people, and a whole host of other social factors. This is endemic in most societies, not a sort of random occurrence.
This is true for all oppressed groups. Racial minorities lack the privilege that white people have. A black person is going to do worse than a white person from the same circumstances. Homosexuals lack privilege that heterosexuals do. This doesn't mean "black people can't do well" or "women can't do well" or "gays can't do well", it means that an oppressed person has to be that much better to succeed. As an analogy, if you have two equal performing SC players, but one player starts with two less peons every game and only 10 minerals in the bank, it's clear that he is working much harder than his counterpart to achieve the same results. Would you think it was reasonable for the second player to say "that's going to end with the game being imbalanced towards him!" if we gave the guy his 2 peons and 40 minerals?
Again, to be totally clear (because discussions of privilege always seem to degenerate to the privileged talking about THIS ONE PERSON THAT I KNOW WHO IS PART OF THAT GROUP BUT MAN THEY MADE A MILLION BUCKS and how their one example of a successful oppressed person is proof that the oppression is imagined), privilege doesn't mean that a member of the oppressed group is unable to perform a member of the unoppressed group. These exceptions are outliers, exceptional people who are able to do exceptional things in the face of such difficulty.
The problem with your viewpoint is you're thinking oppression is this loud thing that anyone who isn't a total bigot will see, like slavery or something. In reality oppression is a quiet part of our day to day lives, ingrained into the way we think. Men are smart, strong leaders and women are weak, subservient, and need to be protected; these ideas form the core of how gender is perceived. People who diverge from these roles are aberrations and deviants. A woman acts too "manly" and she's a dyke or at the very least sexually undesirable (and the fact that this is how she gets valued is part of the oppression). A man acts too "feminine" and he's a pussy (wow a gendered term which reinforces gender roles, this just keeps getting deeper doesn't it!), or as the esteemed poster above put it, a "FAAAAAAAAAAGGGG".
I can only assume this line of thought derives from having privilege in every way, and therefore not ever having to fall victim to these less blatant, ball-and-chain forms of oppression. But please, read the pdf linked above, and consider what your life would have been like if you just had happened to get that second X chromosome and what differences would be imposed by an external source, simply due to your gender.
Those "special privileges" you're so scared of serve to relieve the imbalance caused by privilege. Feminists (and most champions of oppressed groups) don't want to rule over their oppressors, they want an egalitarian society where people succeed and fail on their own merits rather than their gender or their skin tone or their sexual orientation. These privileges serve to provide a leg up to the people who aren't provided privilege automatically by society, that they can perform at their own level of ability, rather than their ability adjusted down by their gender. One example in this thread, the fact that mothers tend to win custody of children, is not even in the aid of women as much of born from the idea that the woman's job is to care for their children and so they will be more capable of shouldering that burden. Do men want custody of their children? Then they should work towards a society where judgement of someone's ability is in fact based solely on the ability they have, rather than the script handed to them by society.
A very very very small minority, if they even exist at all, believe they should dominate their oppressors. The myth of the "feminazi" who wants to take over and instate a matriarchy is perpetuated, in fact, by the patriarchy in order to silence the movement. The message is if every resistor wants to destroy society and rule over its ruins, then it must be the case that resistance is a mad, antisocial activity which should be suppressed.
The idea that leveling the playing field will result in the privilege-holders becoming the most oppressed class is nonsense drivel fed to society to make sure they hate any push for egalitarianism. It is fed to us to keep us saying "im all for eqaulity, but everyone needs to know what that is" and acting like it's a progressive thought. It's born of the same notion of the privileged that ensuring things are fair is not an elevation of the oppressed but the suppression of the oppressor. The very thought is disgusting because it's so pervasive and is such a powerful blocking factor to any sort of meaningful progress towards actual equality for so many people.
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On February 17 2011 03:39 XCetron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 03:08 denzelz wrote:On February 17 2011 00:05 Haemonculus wrote:
Privilege may be blind to those who have it, but some of the replies here are just depressing. QFT. I think most people replying to this thread think that women are the ONLY one who believe that gender equality and feminism is right, but that's not true. I am a guy and I fully support the feminist movement. The thing is, many people will point to specific examples where feminists are radical, but in reality, most feminist ideas are quite palatable and make a lot of sense. If you want to learn more, this is a pretty list that illustrates the advantages of being male in a patriarchal society. http://sap.mit.edu/content/pdf/male_privilege.pdf Perhaps living in one of the more "liberal" state and other factors considered has somewhat sheltered me from majority of the statements on that list, but a lot of them seem to be severely outdated or mostly irrelevant. A few of the statements appear to be true on first glance but there are no actual numbers or any percentage given, instead we are provided with a lot of "likely, chances, probably and in general". That list cannot be taken seriously at all. Disclaimer, perhaps this is true in some part of the world, there is no doubt that that is very possible. It is however does not apply to everyone everywhere.
That list doesn't feel true for you because chances are, you've never experienced those things.
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On February 17 2011 03:39 XCetron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 03:08 denzelz wrote:On February 17 2011 00:05 Haemonculus wrote:
Privilege may be blind to those who have it, but some of the replies here are just depressing. QFT. I think most people replying to this thread think that women are the ONLY one who believe that gender equality and feminism is right, but that's not true. I am a guy and I fully support the feminist movement. The thing is, many people will point to specific examples where feminists are radical, but in reality, most feminist ideas are quite palatable and make a lot of sense. If you want to learn more, this is a pretty list that illustrates the advantages of being male in a patriarchal society. http://sap.mit.edu/content/pdf/male_privilege.pdf Perhaps living in one of the more "liberal" state and other factors considered has somewhat sheltered me from majority of the statements on that list, but a lot of them seem to be severely outdated or mostly irrelevant. A few of the statements appear to be true on first glance but there are no actual numbers or any percentage given, instead we are provided with a lot of "likely, chances, probably and in general". That list cannot be taken seriously at all. Disclaimer, perhaps this is true in some part of the world, there is no doubt that that is very possible. It is however does not apply to everyone everywhere.
All of these exist and are pervasive in the United States, even in "liberal" states.
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On February 17 2011 03:39 XCetron wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 03:08 denzelz wrote:On February 17 2011 00:05 Haemonculus wrote:
Privilege may be blind to those who have it, but some of the replies here are just depressing. QFT. I think most people replying to this thread think that women are the ONLY one who believe that gender equality and feminism is right, but that's not true. I am a guy and I fully support the feminist movement. The thing is, many people will point to specific examples where feminists are radical, but in reality, most feminist ideas are quite palatable and make a lot of sense. If you want to learn more, this is a pretty list that illustrates the advantages of being male in a patriarchal society. http://sap.mit.edu/content/pdf/male_privilege.pdf Perhaps living in one of the more "liberal" state and other factors considered has somewhat sheltered me from majority of the statements on that list, but a lot of them seem to be severely outdated or mostly irrelevant. A few of the statements appear to be true on first glance but there are no actual numbers or any percentage given, instead we are provided with a lot of "likely, chances, probably and in general". That list cannot be taken seriously at all. Disclaimer, perhaps this is true in some part of the world, there is no doubt that that is very possible. It is however does not apply to everyone everywhere.
If you would point out the specific ones you have a problem with, I would be glad to try and find sources. I agree a few things on the list are silly (On a daily basis, you won't be expected to change your name when you get married? =\) but most of them, especially the points about attractiveness/sexuality, childrearing, and the business world are difficult to disagree with IMO.
On February 17 2011 01:10 telfire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:13 des wrote:On February 16 2011 21:02 Fir3fly wrote:
a friend of mine said "in the future, the white, straight, male is going to be the lowest and most oppressed of the minority groups" and i have to agree. im all for eqaulity, but everyone needs to know what that is.
Jesus fucking christ how do you say that out loud without a hint of irony and not want to kill yourself for being such a miserable piece of shit? Congrats to everyone on this thread for being lucky enough to be blind to your privilege and be able to think that whenever an oppressed group tries to assert its rights that you are somehow being oppressed. You can't succumb to emotion when discussing something like this. I'm pretty sure almost everyone in the topic has made it clear they are against actual discrimination. The thing is that really doesn't happen nearly as much as people complain about it; and the feminist movement sets an absurd double standard that has nothing to do with discrimination. There's no irony in that quote at all. There are so many "special privileges" out there for minorities that the non-minority IS becoming a lower and lower position in society. He's not saying the day is here, he's saying the trend is such that the day will eventually come. If you disagree, how about some logic instead of profanity and insults?
How do you know discrimination doesn't occur as much as people complain about it?
The reason minorities get special privileges is that they were systematically oppressed until the very recent past, and arguably still are. We, as the most privileged people in society, cannot simply stop oppressing people and declare things equal due to the advantages we have accumulated.
And it's ridiculous to ask for logic when the position you are defending is "straight white males are no longer incredibly privileged, therefore they will eventually be oppressed." Where is the logic in that? It's a textbook slippery slope fallacy.
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On February 17 2011 03:41 PetitCrabe wrote:
Next time, I will wait for a girl to open the door for me.
Fair enough.
Just spend every morning after you take a shower an hour and a half putting on make up, doing your hair, getting dressed, etc.
So many ignorant posts here, its pretty disgusting.
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On February 17 2011 04:14 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 03:41 PetitCrabe wrote:
Next time, I will wait for a girl to open the door for me. Fair enough. Just spend every morning after you take a shower an hour and a half putting on make up, doing your hair, getting dressed, etc. So many ignorant posts here, its pretty disgusting.
Yeah. I'm not sure the majority of men have any idea of what "feminism" actually, and for whatever reason some women don't either. Not everyone politicizes everything at all times, especially at a golfing club, but that doesn't mean the ideological background noise isn't there.
I mean, to the extent that feminism cannot be generalized anymore than "a school of thought that pays attention to women," I can't generalize about it, let alone "what women want," but the general, pragmatic feminist byline does not oppose men opening doors for women, just men treating women like chivalric maidens.
So if you are opening doors for women because you believe that women are the fairer, weaker sex, and that as a polite male you wish to preserve from her the stress of opening a door, lest she chip a nail, then, yes, feminism has some issues with you.
If you are opening doors for women and men on the basis of human decency, like "this person has a lot of things in his or her hands, so I will hold the door open" or "this person is right behind me, so why not hold the door open," then you're kosher.
For whatever reason the TL.net Blog section seems like the most peculiar place for flexing one's knowledge of feminism, but I won't be throwing any salvos around here for now.
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fem·i·nism
/ˈfɛməˌnɪzəm/
–noun
the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
People who want more than equal treatment just because they have two X chromosomes aren't feminists. They're extremists. I'm all for equal rights....and I don't wait for some random man to show up and open a door for me. Not because I want to be independent from men as a gender - I open the door because I freaking can.
About the golfing - you should get what you pay for. If their membership was less because they were excluded from things, then it has a reason to jump up in price when they were finally included and equal. They shouldn't be paying more than men, though. Same content, same price.
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Wait, so women were paying less than men for golfing? Every golf course i've been to costs the same for men, women, boys, girls, grandpas, and grandmas. No reason to have multiple pricing unless you are trying to reach a specific market.
I don't understand australia.
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Here is what I do not think is right.
When people complain that the main character in a story is male.
When people complain that a male opens the door or gives flowers to a girl.
When people complain that females get a special deal on golf.
When people complain that there are less female sports leagues. (there are less female athletes.)
When people get angry at someone who has shown no disrespect towards anyone due to gender, but has expressed that they do not feel gender roles are as pronounced as they once were.
When people get angry for no understandable reason and blame it on sexism.
When females assume they are the only ones being trolled on the interw3bz.
When females blame all of their problems on sexism instead of trying to achieve their goals.
When people try to argue by insulting other people and calling them sexist even though they clearly stated they are against sexism.
When people ignore half of your points and quote a small no-context portion of your post, then embellish it to label you a sexist.
The attitude that anyone who doesn't think sexism is the biggest problem in the world is part of the problem.
Basically, irrationality. A LOT of people who label themselves feminists are irrational and extremist, and that is the group my comments are directed to. I find actual equality to be an irrationality. Equal opportunity however, I can stand behind.
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It's really not hard to open a door, whether or not I choose to hold it open depends on whether or not the person is going to arrive before it fully closes or not. If they are that close, closing it on their face isn't really polite but if they're far enough away they just have to open it normally.
I think the problem here isn't equality, but homogenisation. Women should be allowed to go to women only shit, men should be allowed to go to men only shit, husband and wife stuff should be allowed. I think equating equality and equivalence (holy shit alliteration) is the main problem here.
LOL at some of replies here though. Hahahahaha
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I heard it described as equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. I'm totally in favor of equality of opportunity, but definitely not in favor of equality of outcome.
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On February 17 2011 05:13 Tzel wrote:
fem·i·nism
/ˈfɛməˌnɪzəm/
–noun
the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
People who want more than equal treatment just because they have two X chromosomes aren't feminists. They're extremists. I'm all for equal rights....and I don't wait for some random man to show up and open a door for me.
Cute.
Generally, yes, equality is important; Virginia Woolf, I'm pretty sure, said "feminism" was a misnomer for this very reason. But look, assuming that this equality has been functionally attained (which it hasn't, because as the previously posted PDF noted the higher up you go in most companies and government institutions, the less likely you are to encounter a female, and the more likely you are to find sexist justifications for that), the problem is that male chauvinism asserts itself so easily and unconsciously. Equal opportunity is difficult because it necessitates a restructuring of people's private, reflexive opinions about gender, race, etc., and with almost the entirety of western civilization an assertion of white male dominance, this restructuring is profoundly difficult to do.
With thousands of years of male dominance leading into the 20th century's various feminisms, what does it mean to say, "we are equal," and how can someone presume that this equality has been achieved? Underlying a lot of supposedly civil discourse on this subject (e.g. some posts in this topic that think practical equality is as easy as institutionalizing it; women in the workplace) is a lot of people who privately think women are emotional, irrational, and incompetent, and so long as that attitude exists, equality has not been achieved.
This is why just the process of finding historical records of female agency, female intellectualism, and female perspectives is arduous, a life's work, and why the privileging of the female gaze is imperative - the history of the world is written by the winner, and the winner has been profoundly male because only the male was allowed to play. A large part of feminism is just that: the privileging of female perspectives if only for a moment, because society's gaze (its ideology) is male. A large part of feminism is getting men to shut up for just a moment and let women speak; the weighing of gazes against one another.
I'm not saying the women shouldn't have to pay the same as everyone else. This is bigger than golf: this is about people using this golf story as a synecdoche whereby they judge women and feminism in their entirety. This is about how if a female wants more than equal rights, she's an extremist; if a male wants more than equal rights, he is a man.
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On February 17 2011 03:08 denzelz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:05 Haemonculus wrote:
Privilege may be blind to those who have it, but some of the replies here are just depressing. QFT. I think most people replying to this thread think that women are the ONLY one who believe that gender equality and feminism is right, but that's not true. I am a guy and I fully support the feminist movement. The thing is, many people will point to specific examples where feminists are radical, but in reality, most feminist ideas are quite palatable and make a lot of sense. If you want to learn more, this is a pretty helpful list that illustrates the advantages of being male in a patriarchal society. http://sap.mit.edu/content/pdf/male_privilege.pdf
A lot of that list just seems unnecessary, break even or just unproven observations where all you can do is shrug.
I mean look at some of these
13. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.”
Can easily flip this and say if you're a man and you don't have sex that you will be made fun of.
18. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch
As opposed to being punched in the face or challenged to a duel?
23. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.
Does this factor in the # of stay at home moms vs dads? If it does, then duh?
Do we automatically assume if more women want to stay at home than men it's "cultural oppression!"?
26. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media are filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.
This is just basic supply and demand and there is clearly no shortage of dick in the world, which would lead us to believe that maybe there isn't a big market for it.
Of course the statement like everything else seems to imply that there is no demand because of cultural oppression on women. But if we're just randomly throwing around armchair sociology you could just say that poor poor men are culturally driven in to porn with the oppressive women reaping the benefits of higher wages as porn actresses.
I don't really know a lot about feminism or have much of an opinion but I don't think a list like that is going to enlighten anyone. It just seems like a brainstorm list for further study by a freshman sociology student.
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Women not making as much as men is going to happen as long as fewer women than men major in fields that will get them high-paying jobs. Look at Engineering, Law, Medical, and Business schools, they're mostly men despite lots of scholarships specifically targeting women to go into those fields.
Also, there's the whole taking time off to raise kids thing.
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EPT
