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I know there's a lot of kids on TL.net that can't handle balance discussions, so please - if you are one of those, please leave. I want to discuss Medivacs and their usage early on, and how to counter it properly.
This is high diamond/early master league.
My problem: Toss has few units, and they need to be gathered in 1 spot, when the terran hits with his MMM ball early/mid game - you can't just place 4 stalkers in the mineral line, without knowledge of where the opponent army is - in case he hits elsewhere.
So, I spot 3 medivacs soon dropping in my main and my expo, so I move half my army to protect the main and leave the rest at the expo. Which units should I send? Zealot, stalkers and immortals are either too fragile or too slow alone and are immediately kited and killed off by marauders/marines.
Which units do you send vs. a drop, and how do you prepare as you see a drop coming in? You have literally seconds until they drop in your mineral line.
 
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On February 05 2011 13:02 Qzy wrote:
Toss has few units, and they need to be gathered in 1 spot
No. And work on scouting.
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Well for me it depends on the type of drop, if its pure marines send stalkers, pure marauder send zealots and 1/2 stalkers etc. Or if you feel theres an attack coming at the same time (just lost control of xel naga) try to warp in units there instead so you dont lose troops from your main force (and protoss has the defenders advantage a little bit due to rally points.
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2 words. Warp Gates. lol that's it. that makes it balanced. And the Khadarin amulate
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On February 05 2011 13:07 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 13:02 Qzy wrote:
Toss has few units, and they need to be gathered in 1 spot No. And work on scouting.
No? Why no? If you don't have your units in 1 spot, and he doesn't drop, you are dead. Nevermind banned the troll.
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On February 05 2011 13:11 Ursad0n wrote:
2 words. Warp Gates. lol that's it. that makes it balanced. And the Khadarin amulate
Khadarin amulate is late game, not early/mid.
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Canada5377 Posts
On February 05 2011 13:12 Qzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 13:07 Offhand wrote:On February 05 2011 13:02 Qzy wrote:
Toss has few units, and they need to be gathered in 1 spot No. And work on scouting. No? Why no? If you don't have your units in 1 spot, and he doesn't drop, you are dead. Nevermind banned the troll.
You also have to read his second sentence. Its not like it was a long post.
If you scout, there's a chance you can find his drops coming (though thats not always possible). But one thing you can do is scout for his entire army coming after you. Then you can regroup. Yeah he can still drop you while he attacks but you're just gonna have to deal with it.
Hard to deal with =/= overpowered unless its really unreasonable.
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On February 05 2011 13:12 Qzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 13:07 Offhand wrote:On February 05 2011 13:02 Qzy wrote:
Toss has few units, and they need to be gathered in 1 spot No. And work on scouting. No? Why no? If you don't have your units in 1 spot, and he doesn't drop, you are dead. Nevermind banned the troll.
Actually he is right. if you scout correctly, you will either notice the drop coming with an observer (they should be out if you have made a robo bay) or just have map awareness in your base and when you see the little dot, pull your probes and send the army, you should have pylons placed around the edge of your base to scout for drops like this if you are high diamond/master league toss... I mean.. cmon.
For the early game w/ Hellion drops it is exactly like vulture drops on bw except these ones have splash. Think of it like that if you played bw and the timing becomes easy.
If you're worried about marauder/rine drops just have obs keeping an eye out for his medivacs and react when you see them. You can safely keep up in macro as well as have good map control by making obs vs T while teching to collo or ht's. Keep watch on his nat's choke w/ an extra ob if you are really nervous about not seeing him push until it is too late.
I agree drops are strong but only if you hesitate to send units to stop them. keep in mind if you go ht's and see a drop coming, it is often the case and you can feedback it and either leave it in red hp or kill it completely before it starts to drop units.
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Lol. Pokebunny, although not a top class player, does many drop plays and they are quite effective vs toss. They CAN be beaten, its just that you got to scout, have at least 3-5 obs out at all times.
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You have observers, hallucination, probes and Xel naga watch towers. I don't see your point. In fact, I think it's ignorant.. You obviously are not good enough yet. You need to go back and work on your game, specifically scouting. Learn what you should be scouting and you'll do fine.
If you want to counter the units, it's about positioning and warp in. If you have an obs in specific locations you will know where he is going with his dropships. Alternatively speaking you could go collo/phoenix. Think about it.. how the fuck can Terran drop if you have a mass of phoenix. They simply can't unless they are hidden dropships, if you have great scouting then I don't see the problem.
Improve on your game, you're not good enough yet. This should give you something to work towards. Achieve greatness!
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On February 05 2011 13:31 Kyhol wrote:
You have observers, hallucination, probes and Xel naga watch towers. I don't see your point. In fact, I think it's ignorant.. You obviously are not good enough yet. You need to go back and work on your game, specifically scouting. Learn what you should be scouting and you'll do fine.
If you want to counter the units, it's about positioning and warp in. If you have an obs in specific locations you will know where he is going with his dropships. Alternatively speaking you could go collo/phoenix. Think about it.. how the fuck can Terran drop if you have a mass of phoenix. They simply can't unless they are hidden dropships, if you have great scouting then I don't see the problem.
Improve on your game, you're not good enough yet. This should give you something to work towards. Achieve greatness!
Yep, this.
Congrats on banning the dude that gave you simple, yet effective, advice.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
it's not too powerful, you're too slow
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Drops are not too powerful. Scouting is very important. Watching the map is equally important. If you scout a 1-1-1 build, most likely drops. Just watch for build orders, gas timings and etc.!
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On February 05 2011 13:36 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
it's not too powerful, you're too slow
If I'm 50% apm over my opponent, ergo not slow, how can it not be considered "powerful" in the way it takes a lot of skill to counter it properly.
You see, it's not the scouting problem I've presented to you, it's the composition of units to counter it. You'll need stalkers when out of position and not able to forcefield, and stalkers are very fragile in tight corners where zealots can't be in front.
You guys are waaaaay too defensive and/or insulting.
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On February 05 2011 13:51 Qzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 13:36 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
it's not too powerful, you're too slow If I'm 50% apm over my opponent, ergo not slow, how can it not be considered "powerful" in the way it takes a lot of skill to counter it properly. You see, it's not the scouting problem I've presented to you, it's the composition of units to counter it. You'll need stalkers when out of position and not able to forcefield, and stalkers are very fragile in tight corners where zealots can't be in front. You guys are waaaaay too defensive and/or insulting.
Scout what buildings they have!
I'm a tad bit confused about how this is THAT difficult.
Sure, drops are annoying. Not too strong.
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On February 05 2011 13:59 Kolvacs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 13:51 Qzy wrote:On February 05 2011 13:36 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
it's not too powerful, you're too slow If I'm 50% apm over my opponent, ergo not slow, how can it not be considered "powerful" in the way it takes a lot of skill to counter it properly. You see, it's not the scouting problem I've presented to you, it's the composition of units to counter it. You'll need stalkers when out of position and not able to forcefield, and stalkers are very fragile in tight corners where zealots can't be in front. You guys are waaaaay too defensive and/or insulting. Scout what buildings they have! I'm a tad bit confused about how this is THAT difficult. Sure, drops are annoying. Not too strong.
I can easily see a drop coming, and see that he's going for a 1-1-1 build. But when he drops in your main and natural, you'll have to split up the army - you can't forcefield in open spaces with few sentries (only 2-3 forcefields) and you'll get kited with zealots/immortals. Stalkers are too fragile.
It might be a too hard topic for TL (thinking about flames towards idra/artosis when doing IMBALANCE) and something I should save for my practice partners.
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Why are you putting down everyone who is telling you that you should refine your play? This isn't a problem with the game, it's a problem with your play. If it was inherently imbalanced, this "problem" of yours would have been prevalent long before now.
Protoss players can do a lot of different things to deal with drops. If you go HT tech, you can feedback medivacs, making 1-2 stalkers VERY effective in warding them off. If you go robo tech you can spot when a drop is leaving the Terran base, or when it is coming in. You can scout the starpot, medivac, the units, so forth.
If you go stargate tech, you can use phoenixes and/or voidrays to intercept the medivac or help you clean up the drop. Phoenixes are arguably the best scouting unit in the game.
If you chose to simply go warpgate tech, or DTs, or something, you can use blink stalkers. You should have more gateway units if you chose to skip a tech option, so your "too few units to deal with a drop" situation doesn't even occur.
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On February 05 2011 13:51 Qzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 13:36 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
it's not too powerful, you're too slow If I'm 50% apm over my opponent, ergo not slow, how can it not be considered "powerful" in the way it takes a lot of skill to counter it properly.
err having more apm is not the same as being faster. you can have 100% more apm and still be too slow.
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On February 05 2011 13:51 Qzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 13:36 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
it's not too powerful, you're too slow If I'm 50% apm over my opponent, ergo not slow, how can it not be considered "powerful" in the way it takes a lot of skill to counter it properly. You see, it's not the scouting problem I've presented to you, it's the composition of units to counter it. You'll need stalkers when out of position and not able to forcefield, and stalkers are very fragile in tight corners where zealots can't be in front. You guys are waaaaay too defensive and/or insulting.
People are reacting the way they are because you framed this as a balance discussion despite not being anywhere near a top player. You could have titled this "[H] Medivac drops PvT" if you wanted advice on how to stop them.
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Stop being stubborn and irrational and listen to the advice people are giving you. Maybe it is you that's the problem.
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So people pointed out that you need some semblance of map control and awareness but also your base layout is important. If you have your templar archives right where it can be sniped then the drop is going to hurt. If you run your probes away and all he can do is shoot a pylon or two, you can take your time getting there and it won't matter. Also if he's sending 3 medivacs of marines and marauders that's a big chunk out of his army and he's not going to win a frontal attack.
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On February 05 2011 14:02 Qzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 13:59 Kolvacs wrote:On February 05 2011 13:51 Qzy wrote:On February 05 2011 13:36 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
it's not too powerful, you're too slow If I'm 50% apm over my opponent, ergo not slow, how can it not be considered "powerful" in the way it takes a lot of skill to counter it properly. You see, it's not the scouting problem I've presented to you, it's the composition of units to counter it. You'll need stalkers when out of position and not able to forcefield, and stalkers are very fragile in tight corners where zealots can't be in front. You guys are waaaaay too defensive and/or insulting. Scout what buildings they have! I'm a tad bit confused about how this is THAT difficult. Sure, drops are annoying. Not too strong. I can easily see a drop coming, and see that he's going for a 1-1-1 build. But when he drops in your main and natural, you'll have to split up the army - you can't forcefield in open spaces with few sentries (only 2-3 forcefields) and you'll get kited with zealots/immortals. Stalkers are too fragile. It might be a too hard topic for TL (thinking about flames towards idra/artosis when doing IMBALANCE) and something I should save for my practice partners.
Post some replays then. You say you haven no problems with scouting and reacting in time. I want to see proof then, because I don't believe that for a second.
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On February 05 2011 13:51 Qzy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 13:36 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
it's not too powerful, you're too slow If I'm 50% apm over my opponent, ergo not slow, how can it not be considered "powerful" in the way it takes a lot of skill to counter it properly. You see, it's not the scouting problem I've presented to you, it's the composition of units to counter it. You'll need stalkers when out of position and not able to forcefield, and stalkers are very fragile in tight corners where zealots can't be in front.
You guys are waaaaay too defensive and/or insulting.
this is the most ironic thing i've ever seen on TL
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Im going to take the OPs side here even though he has a pretty bad attitude. Even when I see a drop coming its hard to stop without pulling too much. A medivac and stimmed marines/marauders will decimate any equal-cost group of gateway units due to healing and kiting. Protoss has to send almost two times the cost of the drop to stop it which makes your front extremely vulnerable to a push.
Idealy it would be terran sending ~10 supply for a drop which weakens his army by 10 and the protoss has to respond by sending ~10 supply to go defend the drop. But in reality the protoss needs to send ~15-20 supply.
Drops aren't a huge problem except for when the terran pushes your front at the same time : /
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dude you are talking about being dropped by 3 medivacs.
Depending on the map, you could have an observer at his base before he his second medivac pops. By the time he has 3 loaded medivacs you should have seen what he is up to.
Secondly, medivacs are fragile. Keeping a few stalkers at your minerals wont mean auto lose if they attack at your choke, if anything its much better than being 3vac dropped and half your shit taken out with almost no counter damage done in return.
Also keep in mind that if he sees stalkers waiting there, he would probably not risk it. If he does, focus fire and take out 10 supply per medivac without taking any damage.
As a terran player i can tell you that drops are high risk, high reward and are by no means unstoppable.
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i agree with this i cant believe how good med vacs are... they can heal and drop, forcing protoss to split their armyies
i think that the ability for them 2 heal should b an upgrade at the tex lab and in worst case senaireo, make drop also upgrade
meds + rines/rauders are way 2 strong when dropped
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On February 05 2011 17:18 RoyalFlush1994 wrote:
i agree with this i cant believe how good med vacs are... they can heal and drop, forcing protoss to split their armyies
i think that the ability for them 2 heal should b an upgrade at the tex lab and in worst case senaireo, make drop also upgrade
meds + rines/rauders are way 2 strong when dropped
yes i am tatally agree with this because marder and moles are too strong... really too strong.
not only this but they have allin tactics + fast push or fast expo off of 1 opaning
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Blue flame hellion drops/harrass can be pretty ridiculous especially later in the game when bases are highly saturated. Unless you have a big army there you cannot kill them fast enough to prevent the death of a million workers. You can have 4 cannons around your minerals but 4 hellions can still run in and fry all 25 probes before they die. Try to run? Just puts them in a line and then even more die at once. You have to have unreal worker micro to keep hellion harrass from being cost effective.
As for whether or not medivac drops are OP... I'll just say they are incredibly difficult to deal with. They are incredibly difficult to deal with because your own building create walls for the marine/marauder which are both ranged, and medivacs also heal them. So to stop them you need to use a greater force than what the terran drops with. Late game, if you have 3, 4, 5 bases and terran has some units in the middle of the map and then drops 3 medivacs full at 2 dfferent bases, you really have no choice but to take some heavy losses.
When ur opponent is incorporating medivacs it may just be worth it to get extra observers to post around the map. Sucks to have to use that gas, though.
Also collossi make it harder for your opponent to get too many medivacs.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Medivac drops are one of those things thats x10 harder to defend than it is to execute. They are absolutely non-trivial to stop.
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I agree, they are one of the most frustrating things about playing against terran. Even when you see them coming, they can still hurt you badly.
The problem is terran dps is insanely high. Even if you respond quickly they can probably take out your nexus first. And fighting in your base is the absolute last place you want to fight T (until very lategame with col templar of course) because you can't get a good zealot surround.
But the most annoying thing in my mind is how fast the units load back into the medivacs. Its almost instant, so when you do respond, they just safely flee.
And terran gets this capability for FREE, its part of his standard army.
Remember as well, against a good terran you will not have your observer sitting on his army the entire time, lol. He will kill it.
I hate to talk balance, but I really think the medivac needs reduced carry capacity, or maybe load its units far slower. T seems to have a ton of stuff that is 10x harder to stop than it is to pull off, and it is very frustrating.
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EPT
