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SC2 and Chess Comparison

Blogs > darmousseh
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darmousseh
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3437 Posts
November 24 2010 01:04 GMT
#1
Every week there is a new build that "is amazingly awesome" and the like and sc2 is starting to look more and more like chess.
[image loading]
In starcraft 2 there are certain basic aspects of the game

1. Strategy. Often misunderstood this is simply a word for a style of play you wish to achieve over a long period of time with a delayed reward. In Sc2, this is mostly associated with builds, transitions, and timings (attacks, expanding)

2. Tactics. Actions that require a very short period of time with a very quick reward. (baneling busts, cloak banshee harrass).

3. Execution. This involves playing your strategy and tactics to perfection. In SC2 this is also referred to micro and macro.

Each person focuses on the different aspects differently. IdrA focuses on strategy and execution of that strategy. Foxer focuses on tactics and it's execution. That's not to say IdrA or Foxer don't do the other, but that they try to obtain a winning advantage differently.


Here's eventually what will happen. Tactics change strategies. If kiting with marines is too tactically strong, then players will try to either come up with a tactic to deal with it (burrowing banelings) or a strategy (pool first). Eventually almost all of the tactics will be figured out and a lot of them have already. When tactics are known and can be executed to perfection (and countered to perfection) then strategy will become increasingly more important. Eventually we will discover things like "banelings are not a counter to marines" and "carriers are the counter to mutas" (examples which are untrue right now). Once the real tactical advantages of all the units and maps are discovered, then strategy will take over and by strategy i mean tiny things. Something like "I'm going to make 3 stalkers first and snipe that first sentry so that i can do a timing push at 6:45 and not get blocked at the ramp".

In chess, the very first thing a lower level player learns is how to recognize tactical situations and how to deal with them properly. First you learn the end-game (very few pieces on the board) which is basically "how to win with an advantage", then you learn to recognize things like pins, forks, outposts, etc which are midgame tactics, and finally you learn the beginning. When I decided to study chess I had a 500 page workbook of chess puzzles of common tactical scenarios. Learning to recognize forks, pins, etc 3-4 moves ahead can help save and win you a lot of games. Usually in chess, if you are practicing like 4 hours a day, you pick an opening and practice that opening only for a month. You learn some small variations and ways how your opponent can react along with recognizing winning or losing situations. Then you go and use this opening in every matchup in a tournament for the whole month. Then at the beginning of the next month you pick another similar opening, but one that is different enough (often a variation that differs by only 1 move in the first 6-7 moves) and continue.

This is what is happening on the korean servers. (It happens naturally even if players aren't thinking about it). Players find a build that they like a lot and practice only that strategy and get really good. They use it almost exclusively for a week and then move onto another build. By the time a tournament hits they have 2-3 builds they've been practicing and recognizing.

After a while, some openings are declared "superior" to others. In chess, the Ruy Lopez is so powerful that it is often considered "standard", however, it is also the most practiced opening. So sometimes a grandmaster will throw the other player for a loop by doing something unexpected (maybe an english opening or a hyper agressive opening), and win not because they are neccesarily more skilled, but because they have outpracticed their opponent in that particular strategy. Often in this situation, the best bet for black is to try to force the game into a more familiar position. In SC2 this might mean if your opponent is doing a weird timing push and you were planning to go hydra, so it, but maybe delay it until you hold off the attack.

If you want to adapt the practicing techniques of chess to sc2 then do the following.

1. Knowledge: Learn all of the counters and know your race completely. You should know that a zealot has 100 hp 50 shields, that charge costs 200/200 and that it takes 3 hits to kill a zergling unless you have +1 attack advantage.

2. Tactics: Practice micro execution. Using a trainer map, learn how to micro all of your units. Learn what units can be completely kited (like zealots) or some that can only be partially kited (like the new 4 range roach) and practice doing it until you are blue in the face.

3. Execution: Practice your macro execution. First use a program like YABOT and get those macro mechanics perfect. Often the right answer to any build is to simply have better macro. You can be horrible at micro and lose your entire army over and over again if you simply win the 1 big battle at the end because you have more expansions. The Day9 daily about expanding is a perfect example of the power of macro. Get good at execution. Learning to micro and macro at the same time is important. UMS multitasking trainer is where it's at. Choose a specific build while doing this.

4. Openings: Once you can execute micro then pick a build for a specific matchup. Make sure the build is very very specific. All ins are probably the best way to start since they are short games. Then use YABOT and practice this build and check the clock to when you finish it and record that time. Rinse and repeat until you don't think you can improve it any more, and then go try to do with the UMS multitasking trainer, until you can do it in the same time (it's ok if you die, that's not the point). Do this at least twice for each MU. Have 2 specific builds. One build is your build you are working on, and one build is your "piggyback" build that you use against unfamiliar strategies. Maybe you are working on 3 gate expand -> 6 gate timing push off of 2 bases, but your standard build is 2 gate robo. If you see something and can't immediately determine what it is from scouting, adjust your build and do the 2 gate robo. If you lose, then at least you have a replay to learn how to recognize it and react next time.

5. Practice Games: Ladder time. You now have practiced your fundamentals and have builds you've practiced. Now go and play a bunch of ladder games. Maybe 10-20 for each matchup. During the laddering identify weak points in your play and focus on those during the game to make sure you don't repeat. If your macro is slipping or your micro is slipping, stop laddering and practice that stuff, laddering will only make you frustrated. Always watch every replay completely and try to determine why you think you failed and also identify every single little thing you didn't do. Maybe like "I built my first pylon at 130 food instead of 100", "my probe was idle for 5 seconds before i started scouting", "I should have pulled that zealot back just a little farther", etc.

6. Tournments: You have practiced all of your fundamentals and have game experience with each of your builds. Take these specific things to a tournament and do your best. Discover why you win or lose. If you lose because of micro, focus on that, if you lose because of macro, focus on that, etc etc. It is highly unlikely you will lose a simple build order loss unless you are one of the top 100 players in the world. 14 hatch before pool might be considered weak by some, but if you can execute it perfetly and hold off all rushes, then suddenly you look brilliant. Just because you lose going 14 hatch doesn't mean it was a build order loss. (Unless it's steppes of war and you go 14 hatch against protoss, GG Sen).

Some things to remember.

In SC2 like in chess, learning to perfect your macro is more important than you build. I love it when i win games and my opponent is like "how do you have all that stuff?".

What makes pros better than semi-pros are the little tiny things, but again the fastest way to improve is to improve your basics first. In chess the skill-cap is significantly lower than the skill-cap in sc2 because of the lack of needing to execute your actions and the significantly higher number of combinations you can execute(moving a piece on a chessboard is pretty easy), which means that becoming a master in sc2 will be hard.

Finally, thanks to day9, always remember to "Have a plan" when you are practicing. In baseball players practice executing the fundamentals every day. Taking ground balls, relays, hitting practice, catching pop flys, and will take extra time to work on something they might need to improve. If you just ladder, you probably won't get better nearly as fast as if you practice specific things. Training maps are practice for ladder games and ladder games are practice for tournaments.





**
Developer for http://mtgfiddle.com
Lightswarm
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada966 Posts
November 24 2010 01:13 GMT
#2
i think bw has made a million comparisons to chess already. sc2 is no different
Team[AoV]
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-24 01:31:00
November 24 2010 01:15 GMT
#3
Starcraft is a game absolutely centred in economy. In my early teens I was one of if not the best whatever age group chess player in my country, (not much of a brag if you look at the country), and not understanding economy well definitely capped my BW play. I played games all my life and that was never really a big theme to games, even when I played multiplayer in RTS games it would be too slow paced and even then I eventually managed to beat my far older brothers (i was like <10 yrs old) with 6 barracks knights in warcraft 2.

I maxed at like C+ (just after TSL season) but was normally around C- iccup, (I only played 2-4 week bursts of ladder which didn't help but not my overall problem). I had pretty good micro macro but only in the "spending money" sense, not in the "knows how to get shitloads of money and then units just in time, i.e management. I also had a decent game understanding, at least, as much as could be considering how little i really understood about sc economy, and thus build orders didn't make too much sense. I started following pretty standard ones and found it to be a massive improvement, not knowing why.

If you understand economy well you've got the foundations of top level starcraft play. Look at ret, his play is totally centred on macro and with very little flair to his play he dominates. Nony and idra are similar.

I remember just before my SC2 beta invite I was wondering what was wrong, and watching jaedong vods he micro'd worse than I did (because he had more shit and was macroing and not microing most of the time) but I lost, so I knew there was a macro problem, I thought it was not spending my money well, but it wasn't until I started playing sc2 as a base game from the ground up that it started to click.

I have found nothing from my chess that has helped my SC play at all. You can drag analogies for skillsets but its nothing direct like say, RTS game jump to RTS game. They just are both strategy games, pretty no brainer.

I like how now I can be just like "I got supply blocked, my drone pump + maynard to third was too late" as the main reason to lose the game, as opposed to any strategy problems. Good knowledge of economy is also the key to understanding how to form a build order.

The only thing I'd definitely recommend from your OP is to do micro tournaments, watching better players and practicing at once is just a total accelerated learning curve and its how I learned micro in BW. Also, the day9 daily about expanding was simply a demonstration of how l
Mothra
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States1448 Posts
November 24 2010 01:25 GMT
#4
I disagree with some of the stuff you're saying, especially the following:

On November 24 2010 10:04 darmousseh wrote:
In chess the skill-cap is significantly lower than the skill-cap in sc2 because of the lack of needing to execute your actions and the significantly higher number of combinations you can execute(moving a piece on a chessboard is pretty easy), which means that becoming a master in sc2 will be hard.


Neither game has a "skill cap". I think it's interesting how the evolution of Broodwar mirrored chess style evolution. Boxer was like Morphy... they both mowed down all comers with their micro/tactics respectively. As time went on the strategists/macroers gained prominence, until you get guys who are perfect in both areas like Flash or Anand.
Hoosegow
Profile Joined August 2010
United States139 Posts
November 24 2010 15:34 GMT
#5
This may be slightly off topic but the previous post reminded me of a discussion I had with a friend, trying to find analogies between the greats of SCBW and Chess. I tend to think of Grrr as the equivalent of Morphy, destroying everyone before the game was fully understood. I like to compare Boxer with Reti and Nimzowitsch, showing that there was more to the game than anyone thought. Flash, in my mind, is definitely the SC:BW version of the invincible Petrosian :D
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
November 24 2010 18:11 GMT
#6
Jaedong = Garry Kasparov.
Didn't mean to post my life story but I want to stress that you shouldn't study chess or chess methods for learning sc:bw, as the most important parts about chess, are not the most important parts about BW.
des
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States507 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-24 19:25:44
November 24 2010 19:25 GMT
#7
Other than openings how are those practice tips specific to chess/sc2 :I

E: and openings could apply to any strategy game
my larvae bring all the zerg to the yard
FreeTossCZComentary
Profile Joined September 2011
Czech Republic143 Posts
December 02 2011 08:37 GMT
#8
SC II is not like chess most times, as it is RTS, but for bronze players, I would recomend reading some book about Chess Strategy. Why? Because there are some things that are really helpful -

1. Both Chess and SC II have exact openers. If you will do it other way than it should be done, you are not ending in good position. I tent to do mothership rush out of 10 pylon 14 gate (OMG I used to play so retarded).

2. Middle game, both SC II and Chess, is about reacting.

3. As there are exact openers, there are exact end game strategies(compositions) in both games, that are better than other styles.
www.youtube.com/OnlyFreeToss, FreeCraft ForFun SC2 MOD Rulez: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292319 Dont even dare waiting, join FreeCraft now!
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