EPTIs "Noobs: Forget Everything But Macro" a Dogma? - Page 2
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
Find opponents who keep their money low as quickly as possible, because the more time you spend against bad opponents who do not punish you for having poor macro, the more you will build suboptimal habits (like thinking you can expand with x build at y timing that is totally invalid against someone with solid execution of a robust build). If you have perfect macro and are playing in leagues where your opponents don't, you should be attacking all the fucking time unless going for economic builds, because chances are your opponent has money banked that could be troops, giving you a decisive advantage. Barring some obvious micro gaffs on your part, no amount of fancy play should save him if he doesn't have shit. | ||
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Autofire2
Pakistan290 Posts
I just think that telling newbies to Macro well and A-move to win, while well-intentioned, will definitely have a demoralizing effect. People in those leagues arent THAT bad. @ Slayer: Well the "don't A-move into tanks" thing sounds easy, certainly. But people should learn, so as not to piss away their Macro advantage, what to do instead. Its not always obvious, especially in the middle of a game. In my case, I should have just covered the map and taken out any of his vulnerable expansions. I know that now. But because my money was low I was like "screw it, I'll just force my way up his ramp, he doesn't really have much stuff and what am I going to gain by waiting?" just little things like that. But I get the thrust of these replies: that Macro is the building block and everything else will become obvious with time, whereas if you ignore your macro, you'll always be mediocre and wont really know why. Close enough? Thanks again for all the replies! | ||
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DeckOneBell
United States526 Posts
In fact, proper macro might cause you to lose a few more games, instead of say focusing more on micro in a decisive battle. But it gives you GREAT habits for playing, and eventually will make you a better player than if you tried to focus on micro, and let your resources spike like crazy every battle. So yes: Macro's kinda the building block. Still, feel free to micro your units or play with positioning once in a while. I like to try hard to get better at SC2, but I do enjoy actually having fun in the game sometimes. | ||
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Autofire2
Pakistan290 Posts
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
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OverTheUnder
United States2929 Posts
On November 07 2010 04:46 Autofire2 wrote: @ DOB: nail on the head. That, I feel, is far more honest than saying "just focus on Macro and win every game till diamond". It is emphasized because without good macro you can't make a good judgement call on anything else. I just don't think you are giving people much credit... how many players mind's go BLANK every game and they *just* focus on macro? and you can probably 4gate/banelingbust/mm push you're way to diamond | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On November 07 2010 03:31 Autofire2 wrote: OK just to clarify, I'm not a great RTS player but I'm not brain dead. I absolutely agree that a lot of things have to be learned through experience, but surely things like "superior positioning" and "scout better" are things you should keep in mind while looking at replays. I just think that telling newbies to Macro well and A-move to win, while well-intentioned, will definitely have a demoralizing effect. People in those leagues arent THAT bad. @ Slayer: Well the "don't A-move into tanks" thing sounds easy, certainly. But people should learn, so as not to piss away their Macro advantage, what to do instead. Its not always obvious, especially in the middle of a game. In my case, I should have just covered the map and taken out any of his vulnerable expansions. I know that now. But because my money was low I was like "screw it, I'll just force my way up his ramp, he doesn't really have much stuff and what am I going to gain by waiting?" just little things like that. But I get the thrust of these replies: that Macro is the building block and everything else will become obvious with time, whereas if you ignore your macro, you'll always be mediocre and wont really know why. Close enough? Thanks again for all the replies! Its MUCH easier to review a replay to fix minor problems, than to fix the problem that 99% of non diamond players have in that send out small armies of units and watch them move//fight as their minerals just keep rolling up unspent. The argument for macro only is that its not only the most important element of starcraft but also the least focused on for the typical newbie. Your argument is that there are situations where you can be macroing better and lose, which is a no brainer but doesn't really hold a candle to the fact that macro reigns supreme for the general case. | ||
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thesideshow
930 Posts
But my advice is just to keep working on your macro, and just makes stuff that doesn't get rolfstomped by whatever opponent is making, and you'll make it to diamond. | ||
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Oceanic
United States122 Posts
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
I think this wasn't explained properly to new players because in Brood War, pretty much everyone makes the right shit and the game always comes down to timing. | ||
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
On November 07 2010 01:44 Autofire2 wrote: I have to confess, this isn't a game where I have natural talent (I have it in other games/sports but not RTS's at all and its the first i've played competitively). For people who are just that good at RTS's, and especially people who played BW, I dont think you realize just how hard this game is for the layman who doesn't have tons of time to practice (like myself). And, because you could beat Silver and Gold players with your eyes shut (I beat Silver usually, Gold about 50%) I don't think you realize thats its very easy even in those leagues to get out-timed, out positioned, out whatevered even when you have better Macro than your opponent. I think most realize how hard and overwhelming SC and SC2 can be to someone new to RTS. Even at higher levels, the experienced player may get overwhelmed by everything going on at once and being able to manage it all. I think an experienced player can understand how crazy hard managing a game of SC can be for a newbie. I think the thing a lot of us take for granted is how hard it is for a newbie who didn't grow up playing Starcraft to be able to identify fundamental mistakes in their play immediately. It's one of the things I think Day[9] does well. He's able to identify common pitfalls in lower skilled play, and put into words what I've had ingrained into my head from playing and watching SC all these years A silver player that loses to a zerg that builds 16 zerglings and attack moves them may think "damn I lost to zerglings, I need a bunker" whereas I would look at the game and go "hmm you have 500 minerals 6 minutes into the game" or "hmm you cut SCVs for 2 whole minutes early in the game" | ||
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Gustav_Wind
United States646 Posts
Will you win games at low levels where you outmacro them somewhat but make enormous tactical/micro/scouting blunders? no. Do you need really, really solid macro if you hope to ever be not terrible at the game? Yes. So why not get it out of the way? It also lets the game knowledge you get from experience to be based on games with good macro, rather than knowledge that might apply at lower levels but not work once people can make units properly. | ||
Chill
Calgary25979 Posts
On November 06 2010 20:51 Autofire2 wrote: Better Macro wont save you if they hard counter your army, it wont save you if you don't defend against early cheese, it wont save you if your understanding of positioning is so bad you lose 2x the food supply of your opponent. In fact, I feel like in all of these situations, better macro would save you. I think bad players don't know what good macro actually looks like. It's scary, and having a few high-tech units that hard counter your army will still lose to a fuckton of units being jammed down your throat. | ||
zatic
Zurich15325 Posts
On November 06 2010 20:51 Autofire2 wrote: I just wanted to point out that perhaps there is an overemphasis on how lower level players (defined as anything Plat or under, or at the very most Gold and under) should ignore everything else, get good Macro and A-move their way to victory till Diamond. I believe this is an exaggeration. I'd say this is not an exaggeration and it's EXACTLY how it works. I am planning to write an article about this in the future. Exactly one week ago a newb friend of mine started playing multiplayer. Went 0-5 in his placements in the most ridiculous fashion and stranded in Bronze. He asked me for help. I sat down with him, had him play 2 games against the AI and told him how to make 3 barracks and make marine marauder from these barracks and attack move them into their death, and focus entirely on building more stuff. He went on a 8 win streak immediately. He proceeded to win 2 our of 3 through Silver and Gold doing nothing but building marines and marauders and a-move them into the opponents base. 5 days (!) later he is exclusively matched against Platinum and Diamond, and maintains 50%, still doing nothing but a-moving his marine marauder groups, with the occasional stim. | ||
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
For example, in reviewing the mistake of suiciding bio into tanks, you will begin assessing that as the loss of exactly as much time and money as it took to produce that army, not just the dimension of, oh x unit "counters" y unit. In tactical situations such as looking at terrain and arcs, you can begin thinking... okay x minerals and y gas of my army is fumbling behind the main firing line due to poor positioning, wasting z seconds of potential firing time. While you should also learn the dimensions of space and information, time and money I feel are lower level and also extremely relevant in thinking about builds, which will become more and more of a concern once your mechanics improve. | ||
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Offhand
United States1869 Posts
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Happy.fairytail
United States327 Posts
Yes, you can get away with winning games with certain all-in kinds of builds and even get up to low-diamond that way, BUT you will find yourself at a loss if your attack fails. And you will end up just re-massing the same kind of attack on the 1-base or 2-base that your build order depends on 'cuz you don't know how to macro, which is an automatical loss against anybody who knows how to grab that 2nd or 3rd base against your 1-base or 2-base all-in. Simple key ideas of learning to macro, from easiest to hardest: + Show Spoiler + (1) never be at a worker disadvantage for your race (usually means constant worker production) (2) don't get supply blocked, ever (3) learn to keep your avg resources unspent under 300 for 1-base (4) learn to keep your min/gas unspent under 600 for 2-base (5) learn when to grab your 2nd (6) figure out how not to die to common army compositions, fast rush builds (6b) this necessitates good scouting, poking, watchtower usage, learning enemy builds, and incorporating harass/multi-task... this isn't macro, but I'm putting it in here in terms of learning progression (7) learn when to grab your 3rd | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
Macro doesn't just mean "get a good economy", it's laying your entire strategic infrastructure in forms of buildings, units, and their underlying strategy. If someone comes up to me who has never played starcraft and wants to learn, I'd teach macro skills in form of building workers first since that is the most logical starting point. When you look at most lower level replays the player that loses often skimped on workers or attempted a strategy that they couldn't afford. Macro isn't the 'be-all-end-all', but it's the best place you can start. Obviously players aren't just going to sit in their base and do nothing. They'll make some forces and try to attack. They'll scout an opponent and make a construct counters. They'll play the game the way they think they should play and learn from losses the optimal paths to achieve their strategy. I won't disagree with you that posting a replay on the forums, especially from a low level, will net a lot of "get a better economy" and "macro better" one-liners. It's often easy to see this when the supply differential is hugely against your favor and your army gets rolled by superior numbers alone (zvp in BW for isntance has the most obvious examples with zergs who have inferior economy management losing to a protoss that knew how to make probes). You don't really see too many helpful tips in remembering worker production and when to put down buildings down, so I'll make a point to advise people on this next time I review a replay. Even with better macro tips, I agree that, even if macro is your biggest issue, you shouldn't be excluded from advice on unit composition, placement, and advantageous times to strike. I'm sure this is what you were looking for in your Jungle Basin game (unit positioning) and your tvz (scouting, minimizing affects of fungal growth, dealing with banelings, and good compositions would be excellent areas to improve, though it's hard to say without actually seeing a replay). Thanks for pointing things like this out. I'll make an effort to be more helpful to forum posters! | ||
BroOd
Austin10831 Posts
For the new player, macro should be the all-important focus. This is not because macro is the only important part of their game, but because a) it’s the fundamental building block of mechanical play and b) it doesn’t come naturally. Your strategy will eventually evolve organically from what you play, what you read and what you see. Your micro will become increasingly better with the more games you play as your muscle memory develops and you become more comfortable controlling units. Macro, on the other hand, is a skill that requires work because it’s the one area where deficiency isn’t always apparent, and improvement will be very slow until you’re able to identify these deficiencies. It’s easy to see when you mis-micro or mis-read an opponent’s strategy, but many newer players have no concept of how lacking their macro is at times. They find themselves out-massed and frequently aren’t sure why they lost. They come to TL and ask for advice, but they don’t really want to hear that they have to work on their macro because macro is hard. They want to believe, with their superior intelligence, that strategy and tactics should win out, but that’s not what Starcraft is. I think part of this can be attributed to the designation “Real-time strategy” being something of a misnomer for Starcraft. While it’s clearly accurate, strategy is not what separates good players from bad; solid mechanics are the defining trait of high-level play. It’s the area that requires the most work but will yield the most gains. You’re right in that ignoring all other aspects of development is the incorrect way to learn. You attacked into a much better concave than yours and your macro was for naught as you threw away your advantage. But that isn’t the fault of the advice. If you didn’t know not to do that before, you know it now, and you can incorporate it into your frame of reference for the future, but that doesn’t mean that you should be focusing on learning things like that at the expense of learning how to macro. It goes without saying that everything you learn along the way is important, but your actual focus should be developing your macro. Often times when new players are given other advice, they can tend to place too much importance on the wrong things and get frustrated when it doesn't really improve anything. When you’re learning to golf, the most important part is your swing. There are a ton of other aspects to becoming a solid, well-rounded golfer, like putting or chipping, but being a great putter becomes irrelevant if you can’t get the ball to the green. The same concept applies to starcraft. You can have great strategy and unit control, but if you don’t have the macro mechanics to execute that strategy or make enough units, those two important aspects are ultimately irrelevant. The thing to take from this is that, although it may be worded somewhat crudely at times, being told to simply focus on your macro is probably the best advice for a lower-level player. | ||
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