Here's my 2 cents for TvZ in Starcraft 2, and why I hate the match-up. It has nothing to do with balance, nor the new patch, I felt the exact same way before the patch was ever announced, and will probably continue to feel the same way, unless some drastic change occurs in the game as a whole.
In BW, TvZ was an awesome mu. It was like a dance. Let's say two top level players go for the most standard, textbook builds, Terran with a 1 rax fe into a 9 min push when the vessel pops, and then goes for mass medic marine, supported by tanks and vessels. Zerg goes 12-hatch, into 3-hatch muta, into lurkers, into defilers, into Ultra-ling-defiler at the end game.
the 1 Rax FE
When T opens with a 1 Rax FE, vs. zerg's 12 hatch, there is a brief period of time where T can do a timing push with about 12 marines, 2 medics, and sometimes 2 firebats, forcing zerg to throw down sunkens and producing zerglings. All of the sudden, Terran has initiative, and map control. Zerg barely gets his defenses up in time, forcing terran to pull back to his base in time for the mutalisk harass.
Will the early attack work? Has Zerg truly succumbed?
Muta harass is sick good, but Terran's defense is also equally good, giving Terran a razor thin advantage in the combat, although he knows perfectly well that one mistake could mean gg. meanwhile, zerg is sitting back smiling, because although he wasn't able to do considerable damage, just a few stray workers and marines/medics, he now has total map control, allowing him to take a third base.
That Marine was just in the wrong place at the wrong time
However, now terran's bio ball is too large, the mutas are forced to retreat, and now tanks come out, a vessel, and a huge ball of medic marine. As terran pushes, lurker tech finishes, and although the zerg is now frantically trying to protect his 3 bases, using a thinly spread army, waiting for defilers to come out.
It's now Terran's turn to attack
With map control, Terran tries to push in and finish the game, while expanding again, but defilers finish just in time, consume zerglings for mana (unless you're jaedong) and use the most powerful spell in the game, Dark Swarm. Terran is forced to retreat, as lurker/ling in dark swarm nullifies ranged units, which happens to include Terran's entire army.
Oh noes! Dark Swarm!
However, using the vessel's irradiate, terran is able to stop the swarm from totally consuming the map, however due to proper scourge placement, Zerg keep his defilers alive well enough to still take a slight upper hand, while taking a fourth, and teching to ultras.
Down with the Sickness?
When the ultras pop, we are in the end-game. Terran constantly pressures the zerg expansions, however, zerg uses his greater mobility to play brilliant defense, while continuing to expand. while zerg's army moves, Terran uses the opportunity to irradiate unattended defilers, however, if he gets too greedy, scourge will make him pay for it. At this point, it is all up to the players large army control and multitasking, the better of which, will take the game.
The Great ones, locked in a neverending battle of wits, speed, and a shitload of blood.
Each part of the match-up required precise micro, excellent game sense, and a well executed build, accompanied by the mechanics and multi-tasking that only a Brood War veteran could posses.
Now, fast forward a few years, and here's what we have in TvZ, Starcraft2 style.
Zerg goes for a blind hatchery before pool, a move quite difficult for Terran to punish, due to the fact that barracks require a supply depot, and the timings for a push after the barracks is finsihed, don't line up if Terran wants to have any semblance of a macro game.
Terran, as such, is forced to do some sort of harass early, that transitions well into some sort of midgame push. Terran pushes out, zerg sees it coming and reacts. One of two things will happen: Either A) Terran's push, coupled with the early harass, is too much for Zerg to handle. Terran roflstomps zerg. Or, B) Terran's push fails, Zerg outmacros Terran easily, and wins.
Furthermore, Terran's success rate dramatically decreases as the push distances get longer. For example, if I spawn at 2 o'clock on metalopolis, and my zerg opponent spawns at 7, I could guarantee you that I will win about 8 out of ten times. however, if we spawn on opposite sides of the map, and I have to push up to 1 o'clock, and then to 9, i'm fucked. How is that fun? Barring a baneling bust from zerg, the game is practically decided, from the time the game starts, based on where we spawn!
Now, I'm a 1400 point diamond player, so take what you will from my comments. However, I'm not so quick to say that TvZ is imba, I just think it's bullshit. The entire match-up revolves around Terran's first midgame push. Terran wants to harass, but doesn't necessarily need to. The harass will simply soften zerg for the midgame push. If Zerg reacts properly, or Terran's push just isn't strong enough, Zerg wins, otherwise it's GG in Terran's favor.
What I want to ask, is what happened to the BW style, back and forth seesaw battle that was TvZ? Where any little mistake at the several critical points could mean defeat.
I feel that TvZ is just a shallow, boring match-up. As it is now, i'd rather lose a 30 minute TvT, than even play a TvZ, because win or lose, it doesn't reflect the skill of my opponent or me.
TvZ is probably the most entertaining matchup in sc2 to watch IMO, but still, it's as boring as heck. Hopefully one day sc2 will catch up to scbw. I've never played the TvZ matchup on either side, so idk how fun it is to play.
TvZ in sc2 is sortve a dance too. Im not sure you really understand the matchup but basically it starts out with terran being able to attack and the zerg has to defend any harassment. Then zerg gets mutalisks out and gains map control. Then once again terran can do a mid game push. Then zerg finally gets broodlord or ultra out and can really begin to siege a terran player's base and thats when the real late game fight to the death starts.
Atleast for me this is how it has been. Maybe you dont have your expansion timings down. IDK for sure just is how it feels to me.
However, I hate to keep repeating the same mantra everyone else does, but really, SC1 had 12 years of progress SC2 has been out for about two months or less. I'm sure it will progress into just as good as a game.
edit - It's been awhile since i've seen screenies of SC1. Jesus, what a beautiful game!
this takes time guys, they weren't doing the battle dance the first few months into this, it took many years and some extensive balancing. just wait for boxer to get better, and some more koreans to jump the bw ship.
"patience is a virtue that takes too long to master"
On October 22 2010 13:45 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: In BW, TvZ was an awesome mu. It was like a dance. Let's say two top level players go for the most standard, textbook builds.....
I think this is the part specifically that you aren't liking. All the intricacies and razor edges that you loved stem from standard openings that give both players equal chances to develop into the mid game and even late game. I agree on a lot of your points, but as of right now, I think it's too soon to come to a final decision about the match up before anything has become standard play. Once we get closer to that, I think you'll start seeing more of that 'seesaw' action that we're all accustomed to loving.
Just like all the other matchups, and the game in general, starcraft 1 is just more fun to watch. You can say the same thing about tvz in bw, and make it zvp, tvp, or whatever. They were all see saw battles. When the zerg goes 9pool, he has a slight chance to go into the toss base before cannons, but usually you can't, so zerg takes 3 bases, into 5 hatches, and protoss can harass a base with about 5-8 zealots in this timing, but its blocked by nice sim city. All see saw things. And in the end, an epic battle. I love watching bw
On October 22 2010 13:45 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: In BW, TvZ was an awesome mu. It was like a dance. Let's say two top level players go for the most standard, textbook builds.....
I think this is the part specifically that you aren't liking. All the intricacies and razor edges that you loved stem from standard openings that give both players equal chances to develop into the mid game and even late game. I agree on a lot of your points, but as of right now, I think it's too soon to come to a final decision about the match up before anything has become standard play. Once we get closer to that, I think you'll start seeing more of that 'seesaw' action that we're all accustomed to loving.
Oh i definitely agree with everyone who's saying that it's too soon to come to a final decision. I absolutely agree, which is why i still have hope personally. I actually think right now that there is a bit more joy in watching Starcraft 2, and as for watching, that feeling of newness, like this player could do anything at any moment, something we all haven't seen a thousand times, that's something I don't think BW will ever have.
I still love playing Starcraft 2 though, it's just TvZ right now feels so bland. I actually like TvP more in Starcraft 2 than BW, tbh. BW is so much turtle for terran, but in SC2, there is just so much more action. And the same with TvT. Now that terran has the marauder, we don't get such boring, hour long macro fests, and that makes playing and learning the match-up a lot more emjoyable.
Wow your BW TvZ description was sheer beauty. Normaly I don't get into balance (I'm of the "it's a brand new game" mindset) but when comparing the two MUs side by side you realize theres a problem. I don't know what it is, whether it's maps or balance, but BW is so much more elegant than sc2 that something has to be off.
Haha I totally thought you were gonna critique BW TvZ when I saw those pics. But ya, I definitely agree with you. I was a protoss player in BW, but I still regarded TvZ as the most beautiful matchup. Hopefully SC2 can evolve quickly and at least attempt to match it.
On October 22 2010 14:05 .Aar wrote: Agreed; TvZ just feels really boring now. Which sucks, because now that everyone's switched to Z it's the only matchup I get.
That was such an amazing game ... if only WCG hadn't gone and spoiled it with their TERRIBLE English commentary. I don't speak a word of Korean, but i preferred to listen to the Korean commentators because they actually were excited, and if they said something stupid at least i didn't have to suffer through it .
In BW, the zergs blindly Hatch before Pool, Terrans FE, puts pressure but do not deal any damage because of 3/4 sunkens, defends the mutas harass and transition into late game.
IN Sc2, The zergs blindly Hatch before pool, Terrans Fast Expand, puts pressure but do not deal any damage because of 1 spine, queen and/or roaches, defend the muta harass and transition into late game.
Yet one is the best matchup is the world, and the other is the most boring one ?
Having played both matchup, as a mediocre ( D+ ) player in BW and below average ( 1450 diamond) zerg player in SC2, i really feel like they are pretty much the same to me. We do no longer have dark swarm/Lurkers, but fungal/baneling serves pretty much the same purpose. I get the same feeling that every small mistake can cost me the game ( misplaced Spine crawler vs Blue hellions is the worst T_T). Mutas are a bit weaker than in BW, but still can stall a terran long enough ( unless he is going for a 1 base tank/marine timing attack) for you to take a third and get ground forces to deal with the Terran. I do like all Z matchups now . Macro all the way =D
Amen brother! From a Terran perspective, I can confirm that TvZ is not the same in SC2 and I miss the old BW TvZ. I've even tried to "emulate" the old TvZ (M&M, Tank, Medivac) style, but it gets crushed..
For those who speak about evolution, TvZ was already awesome in 2001. Well Boxer vs Yellow @OSL was awesome. And the builds had nothing to do with today's build. <3 YellOw low drone count style =) Or Xellos vs YellOw @Olympus OSL... Etc That being said, I don't play sc2, so I have no idea wether your right. 5 stars for your description of BW ZvT =)
If you go for a 1 rax FE in SC2, surrender any hopes for mapcontrol. Speedlings and Banelings do real well to hold out into midgame, then there is Mutas holding out for Infestors. Lategame is the same just with Ultras running around.
I feel like this a pretty fundamental issue in SC2 in general... once you fall behind, it is really hard to come back. It feels like the first big battle determines the outcome of the game a lot more than it did in BW. Unless your opponent was dominating you, pretty much every matchup was a bit of a seesaw in BW.
I enjoy 2v2 SC2 more for this reason- it is a seesaw, more often than not.
On October 23 2010 01:47 ArbAttack wrote: All matchups in SC2 are like PvP in BW.
I think that's a pretty accurate description.
i resent that. PvP in BW can be really exciting. storm/reaver drops alone are better than anything sc2 has. throw in the shitton of viable build orders, micro intensity, and beautiful explosions that don't exist anywhere in sc2 and now every sc2 mu looks like 2v2 in bw w/o the explosions.
PvP in broodwar was good but it was also equally bad in the sense there were some build orders u just outright lose to and it was definitely the biggest rock/paper/scissors matchup in all of broodwar. (ZvZ is a pretty close second) and unfortunately there are tons of rock/paper/scissors situations in sc2 throughout every matchup.
That game. . . It's like watching a 20min Jackie Chan fight scene complete with wall jumps, roof fights and stopping rush hour traffic to fight some more. Sorry SC2, I can't hear you over how awesome BW is.
On October 22 2010 14:05 .Aar wrote: Agreed; TvZ just feels really boring now. Which sucks, because now that everyone's switched to Z it's the only matchup I get.
OT: Zerg player here. I kinda understand what you're going through. Even I can't fathom a counter to muta/ling/bling/infestor...
I don't think you understand. Muta/ling/infestor/bling get's owned hard by a biomech midgame push with marine/thor/banshee. I can win TvZ's, that's not the problem.
The point is that it's boring as fuck. The entire game is about zerg surviving early game harass, terran does a midgame push. If it works, you win. if it doesn't work, you lose. in any good game, there are several points where you can win or lose, and it relies on your execution and game knowledge. SC2 TvZ relies on the Terran executing his timing push properly, and then a-moving, and zerg can't really stop it. i won like 6 TvZ's in a row yesterday doing this on closeish positions, but if I do spawn further away, it gets harder and harder.
Agreed. Bio TvZ was the best thing that I've ever seen. It was perhaps the most entertaining match up in Starcraft 1, and one of my favorite ones to play.
For Starcraft 2.....I can see your point in that it's not as fun.....I guess my biggest gripe is just that the epicness of everything is gone. It's now a big fling fest....if that makes sense.
I also feel the same way, TvZ just isnt as fun. No more 3 way split, no more boxer winning against 3 lurkers with 8 marines 4 medics, or nada's medic wall. It is just not the same, it's possible to emulate it but it just doesnt feel the same. The stronger variant is now 2 rax FE instead of 1 rax, there are no more lurkers where you have to spread out, and no more mutas that totally own your turrets. People just sit back, make some units, and move out. There is no map control or patroling the center of the map trying to deny expansions.
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/5/59/1raxfe.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/f/f7/SCScrnShot_071309_202132.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/5/54/Mutalisk_Harass.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/c/c4/Timing_Push.png)
![[image loading]](http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/1061/scscrnshot012209151210bi3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/images/screens/TruevMajor3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.mymym.com/gfx/TGI_flash_jaedong.jpg)
. Macro all the way =D
