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Whenever people are talking about costs for units and tech the techlab addon is a cost the flies under the radar.
Lets just look at TvP:
Barrack - 150:0
Gateway - 150:0
Cool even. Both can build one kind of mineral only unit.
Teching up-
Techlab - 50:25
CybCore - 150:0
Now each can build two more units. Lets expand to 3 rax vs 3 gate
3x 150:0
+3x 50:25
=
600: 75
vs
3x150
+150
=
600:0
It gets worse as time goes on as for every time terran want a building to have its full capacity open it need 50:25 extra + 25 seconds of build time.
Barrack becomes 200:25 at 85 second build time
Gateway is still at 150:0 at 65 second build time w/o a worker
So yeah protoss, comeplain that the terran units are under priced and overpowered. That because our buildings cost more and take longer.
Where am I going with this? Really just a rant but I was thinking that going into late game terran should get the option to do a tech lab + and reactor = tech reactor like single player. Cost 100: 75 build time of like 75 seconds. Its slightly cheaper than building a second building but it takes longer and is vulnerable to getting popped (400 hp still) The tech requirement would be at least an armory or maybe even a fusion core.
 
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Also consider the following. Cybernetics core opens up stargate tech and you can easily get void rays straight from stalkers, whereas terran has to pass through factory tech first to get vikings.
Second, the worker building the barracks doesn't mine during the time the barracks is building, resulting in a slightly larger effective cost.
Also, while a tech lab is building units can't be produced from the barracks, whereas units can be produced during cybernetics core production.
However a tech reactor would be ridiculously overpowered in multiplayer, I think.
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The only positive thing about this was that you posted it in blogs T_T
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Now do a calculation for reactors!
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Supply Depot
Barracks
Tech Lab
Marauder
Total: 100 + 150+ 50/25+ 100/25 = 400/50
Pylon
Gateway
Cybernetics Core
Stalker
Total: 100+ 150+ 150+ 125/50 = 525/50
I don't see your point. Last I checked, a Marauder DOMINATES Stalkers, and a Cybernetics Core finishes WAY later than a Tech Lab.
If you really want to build more tech units out of your later game tech, just swap addons?
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Add onto that the warpgate tech allows units to be in combat nearly instantaneously (rather than having a build time like normal), which essentially rewards aggressive play and defensive play even more, because your army can be superior to theirs at the time of attack, simply because you have both spent the same amount on your army, but a T army still has units in queue.....
TBH, I think warpgate tech is the worst things in SC2. It pretty much eliminates any defensive advantage that you normally get from shorter reinforcement times, reducing the defenders advantage. Coupled with a less effective high ground bonus, it really allows P to abuse aggressive play much more than the other races. Although I'm not sure how to fix this without altering the dynamics of the game in non-mirror games..... Maybe a longer warp-in time would help (not cooldown, I'm talking about the time it takes for the unit to become usable after purchased)?
On October 21 2010 07:53 piroko139 wrote:
Supply Depot
Barracks
Tech Lab
Marauder
Total: 100 + 150+ 50/25+ 100/25 = 400/50
Pylon
Gateway
Cybernetics Core
Stalker
Total: 100+ 150+ 150+ 125/50 = 525/50
I don't see your point. Last I checked, a Marauder DOMINATES Stalkers, and a Cybernetics Core finishes WAY later than a Tech Lab.
If you really want to build more tech units out of your later game tech, just swap addons?
If you're talking about some kind of 1 rax marauder rush, and you go for 1 gate stalkers, then yes, you're gonna be fucked as P.....
Marauders need either concussive shells or stim (preferrably both) before they're very effective. It takes long enough to get concussive shells that if they sent their first marauder at you (which will arrive somewhere around when concussive shells finishes), you can have your 2nd stalker out to greet it..... Or a zealot + stalker..... Or even a sentry.....
And if they proxied, well, they proxied..... If you fight off that marauder without taking much damage, they're going to be behind.....
The only time you'll get caught with your pants down is a 1 gate robo vs a 2 rax opening or something of the like. But that's because the timing comes out before your first robo unit is out..... Thanks to the wonders of travel, it takes time for any unit to get from his base to yours, allowing you an extra 1 (possibly 2) rounds of production. T gets no such thing if you choose to get warp gates..... They can have a few units stuck in queue during a battle, and if they had a similar mechanic to P, those units could have changed the outcome of the battle.....
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It's also hard to pinpoint exactly the cost of depot+barracks vs pylon+gateway because terrans need scvs to build the buildings while protoss can just warp in and go straight back to mining.
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Welcome to Starcraft. There are 3 races, they are are different, and require different play styles, mechanics and strategies.
Thus, I have a hard time following your comparison of "race A has this, thus race B should have this" logic, as this is not age of empires.
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On October 21 2010 07:53 piroko139 wrote:
Supply Depot
Barracks
Tech Lab
Marauder
Total: 100 + 150+ 50/25+ 100/25 = 400/50
Pylon
Gateway
Cybernetics Core
Stalker
Total: 100+ 150+ 150+ 125/50 = 525/50
I don't see your point. Last I checked, a Marauder DOMINATES Stalkers, and a Cybernetics Core finishes WAY later than a Tech Lab.
If you really want to build more tech units out of your later game tech, just swap addons?
Yes a stalker loses to a marauder but keep in mind a stalker has higher total hp, 80 which auto regen, moves faster without stim (2.95 > 2.25), can be built in seconds anywhere you have psi, and oh yea can shoot air. On that 2.95 is faster than ALL terran air. That makes sense that a unit walking around is faster than something flying through the air. The two units have very different rolls. As I like to say
"QQ more, your tears fuel my roflstompzor"
But more to topic.
Early game its just part of the game but late game adds up.
Per building it costs 50/25. A cyber just needs to be alive somewhere on the map. Each barracks has to have its leg in the ground to build. Nullifying the ability to pick up and move as setting up a new base requires all these building to be rebuilt.
Lets say the battle is raging both sides get a ton of T1 armies
8 rax vs 8gateway
Using new cost
8x200:25 vs 8x150
1600:200 vs 1200
I just wonder is blizzard factored this into the cost of of the units.
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Barracks + Tech Lab is not comparable to Gateway + Cybernetics Core.
Barracks + Tech Lab is comparable to Gateway + Cybernetics Core + Warpgate Research + Twilight Council.
Protoss has much higher overhead costs, so their individual production facilities (Warpgates) are cheaper. Seems fair... particularly since there's no reason Terran would put a Tech Lab on every Barracks they build. That's just silly.
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Never seen such a racially bias thread, you cant do direct comparisons as the units that are made are also different, marauders beat stalkers 1v1 and are cheaper, tech labs are also interchangeable with say a starport for faster timing attacks. There are positives and negatives to each side.
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My point was not to illustrate the difference between Stalkers and Marauders, stop pulling it in that direction. The point was to illustrate COST DIFFERENCE between the Protoss and Terran units. Which would be 125 Minerals MORE to produce the first ranged unit from the Protoss arsenal.
No one is telling you to build so many tech labs You can build 2-3 (100/50 - 150/75) and simply swap unit producing structures. If you don't believe that Terran are more efficient in this sense, let's look at a time difference.
Assume the initial structure was made at the same time, and each following structure was made immediately afterwards.
Supply Depot (30 seconds)
Barracks (60 seconds)
Tech Lab (25 seconds)
Marauder (30 seconds)
Total: 145 seconds: 2 minutes and 25 seconds.
Pylon (25 seconds)
Gateway (65 seconds)
Cybernetics Core (50 seconds)
Stalker (42 seconds)
Total: 182 seconds: 3 minutes and 2 seconds.
Let's disregard cost for a second and look at efficiency. In the theoretical world that everything was free and you are able to create everything with 0 delay, the fastest Marauder possible would come out 37 seconds before the fastest Stalker possible. That's a whole additional Marauder beyond the first before the first Stalker comes out.
Oh but you complain about the Warpgate. Let's disregard Chronoboost for a second. Do you even know the cooldown for a Stalker building out of a Warpgate?
It's 32 seconds. A Marauder is still faster to build. And cheaper costwise.
Let me guess. TLDR. The point is this. Terran units are STILL cheaper than Protoss units, and they STILL take longer to build even if you take into account Tech Lab construction time which can be completely avoided by swapping tech structures.
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Swapping is all fine and dandy but it as to get built at some point. That's like saying zerg can tech swap at any time from roaches to mutas. They still have to build the spire and the roach warren at some point to switch.
And let me say again. LATE GAME. Not 2:30 into the game zomg I have one more maurader
I'm talking about the cost for building 6 techlabs and 2 reactors when the terran production gets to that point.
Like a factory at 150:100 to build one hellion at a time. K cool
Vs 200:125 to build tanks.
So image it this way. Lets make that stalker building in thirty seconds and cost 100/25
BUT the stalker moves at like 2.5 speed and can only shoot ground. Then a 7 or 12 second upgrade that is done manually on each stalker that cost 25/25 that increases the speed to 2.95 and allows them to shoot air and use the blink if available. That's the kind comparison.
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I'm having a hard time more on going mech against protoss, that's the time that both protoss and terran units are expensive. Also, protoss would have the ability to expo a lot since terran has a tendency of turtling.
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On October 21 2010 09:02 Thrawn1324 wrote:And let me say again. LATE GAME. Not 2:30 into the game zomg I have one more maurader
I'm talking about the cost for building 6 techlabs and 2 reactors when the terran production gets to that point.
OK, I'll put it bluntly then.
The time and cost for building a Tech Lab is irrelevent as Terran Units build faster and are cheaper than Protoss Units.
Clearly my point wasn't made with my last 2 comparisons.
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On October 21 2010 09:02 Thrawn1324 wrote:
So image it this way. Lets make that stalker building in thirty seconds and cost 100/25
BUT the stalker moves at like 2.5 speed and can only shoot ground. Then a 7 or 12 second upgrade that is done manually on each stalker that cost 25/25 that increases the speed to 2.95 and allows them to shoot air and use the blink if available. That's the kind comparison.
wat.
How does that even make sense or compare to anything?
If you want all the races to be the same, go play a different game. It wasn't a problem in BW that terran buildings needed add-ons in most cases. It's a not a problem now. What's next, terran shouldn't have to use an SCV to build, it should just warp in like protoss? Nevermind that zerg loses a drone. It's flavor to the game. And it's fine.
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That was the dumbest complaint ever.
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On October 21 2010 08:52 piroko139 wrote:
My point was not to illustrate the difference between Stalkers and Marauders, stop pulling it in that direction. The point was to illustrate COST DIFFERENCE between the Protoss and Terran units. Which would be 125 Minerals MORE to produce the first ranged unit from the Protoss arsenal.
No one is telling you to build so many tech labs You can build 2-3 (100/50 - 150/75) and simply swap unit producing structures. If you don't believe that Terran are more efficient in this sense, let's look at a time difference.
Assume the initial structure was made at the same time, and each following structure was made immediately afterwards.
Supply Depot (30 seconds)
Barracks (60 seconds)
Tech Lab (25 seconds)
Marauder (30 seconds)
Total: 145 seconds: 2 minutes and 25 seconds.
Pylon (25 seconds)
Gateway (65 seconds)
Cybernetics Core (50 seconds)
Stalker (42 seconds)
Total: 182 seconds: 3 minutes and 2 seconds.
Let's disregard cost for a second and look at efficiency. In the theoretical world that everything was free and you are able to create everything with 0 delay, the fastest Marauder possible would come out 37 seconds before the fastest Stalker possible. That's a whole additional Marauder beyond the first before the first Stalker comes out.
Oh but you complain about the Warpgate. Let's disregard Chronoboost for a second. Do you even know the cooldown for a Stalker building out of a Warpgate?
It's 32 seconds. A Marauder is still faster to build. And cheaper costwise.
Let me guess. TLDR. The point is this. Terran units are STILL cheaper than Protoss units, and they STILL take longer to build even if you take into account Tech Lab construction time which can be completely avoided by swapping tech structures.
You do realize that once you get 4 gateways on 1 base, and T gets 4 rax with addons on 1 base, neither can't fully support production..... Which means you are using every mineral you mine as fast as possible.....
Reinforcement time and queue time is nearly zero for a P player, it does not even matter how long the cooldown is in that case..... Advantage - P.....
PS - stalkers may not be as good against Marauders as you'd like, but at least you can shoot air, move faster without losing health, and blink.....
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Never do cost comparisons, they are pointless.
Yes, as a Terran player I do hate having to add a tech lab to EVERY rax just to get parity with a gateway, but you gotta deal with that shit, in order to be the shit.
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Warpgates and barracks are different, Tech labs let you access good units early and warpgates makes it easy to reinforce and macro. different races are different.
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EPT
