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To give you a bit of perspective, let me say that I was a ~1600 diamond protoss with around 400 games under my belt before I switched to terran last week. I switched because I felt that the versatility terran offered would suit my style more, and I'm floating around 1500 points right now.
I've been using early stim/ghost timing pushes to great effect against protoss. All I have to do is to catch the protoss ball in some place, scan if necessary, EMP the sentries, stim and go to town on their army. Hell, I can even engage them from the bottom of their choke and win because they can't do anything without forcefields. From there, if the game doesn't end, I've usually taken out their expansion or done some significant damage while taking an expansion of my own. The sentry, the only unit that keeps protoss alive before colossi or HTs are out against terran bio ball, are effectually nullified by a solid EMP and it takes an obscene amount of micro and foresight on the protoss' part to spread out his clump and keep the sentries away from EMPs.
My question is this, for I simply can't come up with a satisfactory answer: why aren't early ghosts standard in a TvP if the terran is going bio? Is there some weakness ghosts have that the protosses I've been playing have not been exploiting? Keep in mind, it's only a nominal tech investment for a ghost academy (150/50) and while ghosts are very expensive (150/150), they more than pay for themselves if they can EMP sentries, let alone the rest of the protoss army.
If there's no real weakness, which I think is the case, why isn't having ghosts with a bio army standard? Should I be wary of going 2 rax ghost in every TvP? I'm pretty sure I've seen late game TvP with ghosts nowhere in sight, which is just puzzling. There's feedback, sure, but it takes time to find ghosts in a bio ball, and by the time you hit F and click it, they probably will have already EMPed your entire army.
 
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ghosts are pretty gas intensive which means you'll have way less marauders and more marines, so if he's going colossus (which most do as openers) then your marines will melt. also if he catches you off guard or engages you rather than you engaging him then your emp's will be more reflex-y and you might miss important units in the heat of battle.
so while ghost play can be more rewarding, it can also be more punishing. the gas also lowers your medivac/viking count so if you need vikings for colossus or medi's for drop harass then you'll have less of those options
lots of reasons, i could go on.
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like the above said. ghosts are so gas heavy. every ghost means 6 less marauders. which just die so fast to late/midgame toss.
Terran is defined by their gas, they dont have a mineral dump like toss has where you can just pump zealots.
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edit: nvm got my math wrong
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Yea I usually wait till i see more sentries/HTs coming out before i get ghost tech. I need that gas for starport and vikings too if they go really heavy on the colloxon. (day9 joke)
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On October 19 2010 01:43 Scruffy wrote:
Yea I usually wait till i see more sentries/HTs coming out before i get ghost tech. I need that gas for starport and vikings too if they go really heavy on the colloxon. (day9 joke)
this is TL. you dont have to clarify day9 jokes ;-)
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I don't play P or T, I'm just curious: do you research Cloak to eliminate Sentries even if they are spread out?
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On October 19 2010 01:29 mustache wrote:
like the above said. ghosts are so gas heavy. every ghost means 6 less marauders. which just die so fast to late/midgame toss.
Terran is defined by their gas, they dont have a mineral dump like toss has where you can just pump zealots.
Did you seriously just say terran dont have a mineral dump?
On topic: I too would like to see ghosts used more in early game, especially with the sentry heavy play I see alot of toss doing. I also think the nuke could be put to alot more use such as taking out enemy expansions by forcing army movements in the mid/late game.
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yes what would be the T mineral dump? hellions? great vs P if he going an all zealot army. Marines? GG vs zealots (which are the mienral dump when getting HT) HT, and colossus.
Edit: you cant kill an expo with a nuke btw.
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On October 19 2010 02:09 mustache wrote:
yes what would be the T mineral dump? hellions? great vs P if he going an all zealot army. Marines? GG vs zealots (which are the mienral dump when getting HT) HT, and colossus.
Edit: you cant kill an expo with a nuke btw.
You underestimate the power of mass marine. Helions are also usefull as meatshields, and their damage vs protoss balls arent bad, even if the targets are not light.
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On October 19 2010 02:09 mustache wrote:
yes what would be the T mineral dump? hellions? great vs P if he going an all zealot army. Marines? GG vs zealots (which are the mienral dump when getting HT) HT, and colossus.
Edit: you cant kill an expo with a nuke btw.
Regardless of how good they are you still tend to dump your extra minerals into marines therefore they are a mineral dump. I never said you could kill an expo with a nuke(though technically you could with multiple nukes). I said you could force him to move his army and thus take out his expo with your army. It was just an example of something you could do with a nuke that I would like to see more of.
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Marines are amazing vP, what on earth are people saying. Hellions are also incredible units but more situational.
I've played against this early rush (3rax ghost, similar at least) a fair amount, and it relies entirely on actually landing the emp first. Most of the time I see the push coming, throw up a guardian shield, and 1a, because this is basically a 3rax that's delayed with less units.
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I lost 2 games out of 5 today with early ghost openings because of void ray rush. But with more rax to pump rines it will be possible to defend voids.
So far iam using the ghost opening to get an expansion and defend with ghost/rine/marauder. Then i go for nukes until 3. is established. Works not so much vs 4 gate pressure due to the lack of units.
But i agree. The ghost should be standard in TvP.
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I love how this is in blogs, and yet it's one of the most useful Sc2 strategy discussions I've seen on these forums, and people are actually bring up decent points instead of trying to pass on their silver league knowledge.
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On October 19 2010 03:15 SubtleArt wrote:
I love how this is in blogs, and yet it's one of the most useful Sc2 strategy discussions I've seen on these forums, and people are actually bring up decent points instead of trying to pass on their silver league knowledge.
Same! Unfortunately some retard voted 1/5 
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Marine early game is very very strong since the P doesnt have anything good to deal with it. but late game? come on. have you ever played against a protoss thats only semi good at using storms? storming on and behind you? making you either a) run into another storm or b) run into their mineral dump, the zealot. either way you lose so many marines.
Marines are jsut not cost efficient late game, and can almsot only be used for drops.
sure they're a mineral dump, but a horrible one imo. certainly not on the level of a zealot
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I always go rax, ghost acad, rax, rax in TvP and it's ridiculously effective. By the time my stim push is ready, I have 2 ghosts with enough energy for 3 EMPs. (I like to get nuke and finish them off in style) ~1200 Diamond btw
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Hey guys please read the OP.
He is not talking about late game marines.
He is not talking about going mass marine/ghost with no marauders.
He is not talking about having no air support against vikings.
The point of the early ghost is to kill/cripple the opponent BEFORE he can get colossus tech. After all, the support bay costs 200 gas, and the range upgrade costs another 200 gas, AND THEN the colossus itself costs 200 gas, and takes twice as long to build as a ghost. Meanwhile you probably want to have several sentries, and more than a few (but not a lot) of stalkers to survive/pressure. Therefore it is easily possible to get ghosts long before they can get colossi or templar + storm research. As for why people don't, I have no idea.
But marines are definitely not "terrible" at any stage in the game. They vaporize immortals and void rays, and have some of the highest DPS in the game.
In addition, Marauders are not that gas heavy, with 100/25. It is much more likely that the limiting constraint on your marauder numbers are the minerals, so getting one or two ghosts probably won't kill you.
EDIT: Maybe people don't use ghosts in mid-game because they would rather rush to medivacs early? After all, stim's usefulness is limited until you can heal it all back.
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EPT
