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On October 13 2010 02:37 JIJIyO wrote:
Stop Nu11. Stop. You won't convince us about sc2 stuff. We won't convince you about SC stuff. Stop.
You don't need to convince me about SC1. I have been a fan just as long as you! Do I need to go take pictures with my team shirts!?
I am just trying to see some positive in it. I am depressed as well. I saw great potential in Effort and him leaving specifically hurts me too. But If it's better for him, I will support him.
That's all I'm trying to do, nothing else. The same culture that was created in broodwar should exist in SC2.
nothing else. I am not trying to convince anyone to change their minds, I am just speaking mine. I have ever right to just like you. If you read every one of my posts I have never once said anything against broodwar, or agaisnt keeping broodwar the way it is. I have only said I wish for them both to remain.
I'll stop posting here, I have not gone against anyone, I have no idea why people attack others for simply wishing to discuss a topic.
Hostility for someone who is clearly not attempting to harm your passion, because it his own as well is not right.
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On October 13 2010 02:39 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 02:33 DeckOneBell wrote:On October 13 2010 02:28 Nu11 wrote:On October 13 2010 02:26 konadora wrote:On October 13 2010 02:24 Nu11 wrote:On October 13 2010 02:16 konadora wrote:On October 13 2010 02:14 Nu11 wrote:On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote:I...........hate............sc2............. And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game. If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn......... On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote:
Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community ! And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh. why would you say "for that game" it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft. The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made. you and your capitalism know-hows I am far from a capitalist, but without money people cannot live in todays society. Without sponsored prize pools and salaries pro-gamers cannot live. They would need to pursue other activities. It shocks me that you would be upset by the "money" issue; specifically in regards to the GSL and its high prize pool taking players. It's such a wonderful thing that these people can make more money than they are making now. Many of them do not make enough as it is. With such high prize pools on a monthly basis I can see many teams offering higher salaries, better living conditions, more sponsors, more teams and an overall vast improvement to the life of a pro-gamer. For instance, Cool, the winner for the first TSL just won 100m won for a months work. That would never happen in broodwar due to the structure of the proleagues. Is that not a good thing? I don't see it being bad. Imagine what he can do for his team and their players now. I just dont understand the selfishness of some members here. Throwing money at esports that is going directly into the players pockets is NEVER a bad thing. god you people will never understand hilarious post. Konadora loves BW. He does not love SC2. He is sad to see good players leave BW. Why are you trying to argue anything at all about money? Though, of course, you could always point out Flash made way more than Cool will make, and there's dozens and dozens of players with room and board as well as salaries (however low) while only the few top players of the GSL make any substantial cash. But that's not the point. EDIT: Wow this thread is getting derailed. Anyway, Boxer's transition seems to be a huge, huge deal. i would like to point out that i do not "do not love SC2". i do in fact watch the GSL and found the finals to be exciting. my threads and posts i made regarding to SC2 is about how it is bad for a (relatively) newbie (to sc2) to watching a SC2 VOD and pointed out its flaws. what i am pissed about is that people have no idea how significant a role brood war, the very definition of e-sports in korea, has played during the history of esports, and is being given no credit or recognition at all, especially by the new users on TL who think they have all the knowledge with regards to "e-sports". 10 years of history in the making being tossed down the chute like a trash.
Sorry for putting words in your mouth, I thought you weren't very interested in SC2, your posts seemed to indicate that, but yeah, I can see that.
Also, I kinda agree, though I admit to being fairly new to the entire "scene." I've known who Boxer was for years, and known that there was pro-SC, but only really started watching BW when I got into the SC2 beta. I still think the BW pros are better than the SC2 pros, right now, but we'll see in the GSL2.
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Not so much a case of "the rumor mill spinning" as it is one of Milkis spinning it. ^^
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On October 13 2010 02:34 Nu11 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 02:31 Murderotica wrote:On October 13 2010 02:24 Nu11 wrote:On October 13 2010 02:16 konadora wrote:On October 13 2010 02:14 Nu11 wrote:On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote:I...........hate............sc2............. And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game. If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn......... On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote:
Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community ! And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh. why would you say "for that game" it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft. The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made. you and your capitalism know-hows I am far from a capitalist, but without money people cannot live in todays society. Without sponsored prize pools and salaries pro-gamers cannot live. They would need to pursue other activities. It shocks me that you would be upset by the "money" issue; specifically in regards to the GSL and its high prize pool taking players. It's such a wonderful thing that these people can make more money than they are making now. Many of them do not make enough as it is. With such high prize pools on a monthly basis I can see many teams offering higher salaries, better living conditions, more sponsors, more teams and an overall vast improvement to the life of a pro-gamer. For instance, Cool, the winner for the first TSL just won 100m won for a months work. That would never happen in broodwar due to the structure of the proleagues. Is that not a good thing? I don't see it being bad. Imagine what he can do for his team and their players now. I just dont understand the selfishness of some members here. Throwing money at esports that is going directly into the players pockets is NEVER a bad thing. Except there are no salaries and I didn't hear about Cool re-investing that money into a team or a league or anything, unlike Boxer and many other players in the early days of BW, leading to the creation of proleague and the standard OSL/MSL and proteams and SALARIES and SPONSORS. You didn't have to start this by saying that you're not a capitalist, your myopic view of how money flows is evidence enough. Like kona said, you people will never fucking understand. I can barely veil my anger and resentment for you (not you specifically, but at all the people who so readily see the bright side of this news). Who said there are no salaries? there are salaries, and there will be more of them. Cool's team has like 7-8 sponsors. To assume they will not be gaining an income is silly. I started by saying I'm not a capitalist because kona accused me of being so. There is obviously a negative side to this news. It's horrible that a culture that has grown over so long has to be so shaken. It's horrible the way things are going on. This could of been much smoother. But it's also horrible that there a lot of people who do not want Starcraft 2 to succeed, they are equally in the wrong. There is, however a lot of great news here, and a bright future for a lot of new players, and old players a like. To simply push away any positive side to this is just as bad as to ignore the bad, is that not true?
It's like you're standing next to someone whose favorite pet dog just died and saying "oh well, forget about it, at least you'll have more time for your cat :D"
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Odd rumors for some of those, some are neat some just make you go wtf. BW might just be going into hibernation for a bit.
Some people will leave the community some will stay depending on what happens. I am all for that because some of the hostility on this forum is pathetic and annoying to sift through in threads that have anything to do with BW and SC2 mentioned in the same place.
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On October 13 2010 02:52 Kralic wrote:
Odd rumors for some of those, some are neat some just make you go wtf. BW might just be going into hibernation for a bit.
Some people will leave the community some will stay depending on what happens. I am all for that because some of the hostility on this forum is pathetic and annoying to sift through in threads that have anything to do with BW and SC2 mentioned in the same place.
bet you wouldn't be "all for it" if it was SC2 being put in "hibernation" instead, jackass
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Knee-jerk reactions of elitism (like Kona quoting people with nothing to add but their join date) is really sad to see here. You're seriously "quitting TL if all of these are true" ... So because you see the bw scene as dying out you are gonna go ahead and contribute to that exodus. good on you man. I love bw for all its worth but I guess I'm lucky enough to be able to love sc2 as well.
At some point older tl'ers are gonna have to accept that being earlier on the e-sports scene doesn't give anyone the right to lambaste newcomers, or else they are gonna end up angry and lonely (I'm not trying to be insulting so don't take me the wrong way). It's not like the broodwar section is going away tomorrow, guys.
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On October 13 2010 02:24 Nu11 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 02:16 konadora wrote:On October 13 2010 02:14 Nu11 wrote:On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote:I...........hate............sc2............. And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game. If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn......... On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote:
Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community ! And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh. why would you say "for that game" it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft. The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made. you and your capitalism know-hows I am far from a capitalist, but without money people cannot live in todays society. Without sponsored prize pools and salaries pro-gamers cannot live. They would need to pursue other activities. It shocks me that you would be upset by the "money" issue; specifically in regards to the GSL and its high prize pool taking players. It's such a wonderful thing that these people can make more money than they are making now. Many of them do not make enough as it is. With such high prize pools on a monthly basis I can see many teams offering higher salaries, better living conditions, more sponsors, more teams and an overall vast improvement to the life of a pro-gamer. For instance, Cool, the winner for the first TSL just won 100m won for a months work. That would never happen in broodwar due to the structure of the proleagues. Is that not a good thing? I don't see it being bad. Imagine what he can do for his team and their players now. I just dont understand the selfishness of some members here. Throwing money at esports that is going directly into the players pockets is NEVER a bad thing.
What? You don't even know what you are talking about. Directly into which players pockets exactly, the couple of people who got far enough into the tournament, as opposed to players actually receiving salaries in BW...
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On October 13 2010 02:40 mdb wrote:
I`m so sad reading all of this. The worst thing is that someone managed to destroy a pro-scene that was build so hard over the years for a game that is just simply worse than bw. I cant get over this.
i understand these feelings but the main reason i love SC2 so is because we finally have a chance of seeing an international professional e-sports scene.
And i am willing to accept BW as sacrifice for the greater good:X
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I don't hate SC2 and i wished it all the best....but only if it wouldn't touch a single bw's hair and it fucking killed it instead. I am sorry, but this pissed me off. I will also leave TL when bw is dead (might be good news for some poeple).
Just to explain to some SC2 fans: I personally found SC2 boring as shit as i quit after 2 weeks of playing BETA. The game looks bad, control is horrible, MBS, smartcasting, automine, horrible sounds and many more negatives for me and this will never change even after 5 years of developement. Hell, when i saw every little cool trick that people have managed to pull out in SC2 i was like: yeah nice....When i saw any good trick or nice play overall in BW i was like: Holy fucking hell man that is the most incredible shit i've ever seen, shat my pants and got drunk to celebrate the move. SC2 took another direction than the one i loved and i don't like it. The fact that it managed to kill the game i love doesn't help anything too. So please leave some of your SC2 pro comments at home, beacause it is not changing anything.
Also everything Konadora has said...
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On October 13 2010 01:39 konadora wrote:
i'm quitting TL if every one of these rumors is true there's no backing out, k?
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On October 13 2010 03:01 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 02:40 mdb wrote:
I`m so sad reading all of this. The worst thing is that someone managed to destroy a pro-scene that was build so hard over the years for a game that is just simply worse than bw. I cant get over this. i understand these feelings but the main reason i love SC2 so is because we finally have a chance of seeing an international professional e-sports scene. And i am willing to accept BW as sacrifice for the greater good:X
You have no idea what you're talking about. If BW dies then who will think e-sports is going to last?
Also, the reason e-sports didn't develop in the west is because of the culture, not lack of trying on Kespa's part or something.
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Sad if true. Seems like E-sport is dying in korea like in europe.
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wow awesome news that effort might move to SC2!!!!
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On October 13 2010 01:55 Nu11 wrote:
I have been a fan of Starcraft since it was born. Starcraft 2 is the evolution of starcraft. It is just as much starcraft and more.. why do so many people not want to accept starcraft 2?
For any number of reasons, but they don't all relate to the game itself. The vast majority of us aren't "rejecting" the game itself (I'd guess about 85% of us bought and play the game), just complaining about the absolute debacle the professional transition in Korea has become.
There were basically two "natural" possibilities:
- Continued existence of SC:BW leagues as viable. Old-school appeal plus 10 years of experience and polish, while the new game grew up alongside with newer names and a few BW retirees. In two or three years, BW would either fall by the wayside naturally, or reassert itself as a superior game.
- Wholesale switch to SC2 immediately.
Instead, we got a muddle, between Blizzard trying to assert rights they'd left alone (and insulting KeSPA/MBC/others), tension in Korea left over from the issues surrounding GOM, and so on and so forth. There are no heroes in management right now, and SC2 is the point of contention that brought it all forward.
On October 13 2010 01:55 Nu11 wrote:
...Do you not see any potential in the fresh new strategies, of potentially seeing a new boxer born, of seeing new teams, new drama, new upsets and virtually a whole new metagame evolve?
Why does everyone want to stick with Starcraft? I mean, it has a sequel now... in Broodwar are we just going to see no one but jaedong / flash dominate?
Of course there's now new potential for a new game to develop. But it's not the same game. And this is a sticking point. At some point, if eSports wants real creditability as a "sport", it's going to have to go one of two directions:
- Become a "*athlon" style discipline, where individuals or small teams have to all participate in several different "disciplines". Sort of a full-measure-of-a-gamer approach. This would also allow for keeping games "updated" with new versions etc.
- Standardize the games. At some point, the breakneck pace of game development becomes a drawback for maintaining a sport.
And this is what irritates me about SC2: Broodwar had reached what could have been a solidifying point in its existence: The last of the original founding greats are starting to give up, the next generation has apparently stretched out the game to its reasonable strategic boundaries. At this point, in a normal sport, cyclical strategic patterns start to appear, improvement can be quantified in some sense because all the groundwork's in place, people just keep getting better, faster, smarter. But instead, that natural progression has been usurped by a totally new game.
Flash is the pinnacle of Broodwar now, and SC2 means he likely will always be (unless we see a "BW revival league" that manages to last). But in a natural progression of a sport, 20 years from now Flash would be a Hall of Famer, but new maps, new strategies, new formats for leagues would have rendered some of his accomplishments as just one of many, and others as "the only one" - but only because the accomplishment didn't mean anything in that (hypothetical) future's terms.
In terms of rendering SC as an actual sport in this sense, about the best we can hope for right now is for Blizzard to collapse 5-10 years down the road, and leave a fully developed SC2 scene as The Best Gaming Has. Or at least for Blizzard to get new management that doesn't insist on pushing the Newest onto a professional scene whenever they get around to SC3.
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On October 13 2010 02:53 Kraznaya wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 02:52 Kralic wrote:
Odd rumors for some of those, some are neat some just make you go wtf. BW might just be going into hibernation for a bit.
Some people will leave the community some will stay depending on what happens. I am all for that because some of the hostility on this forum is pathetic and annoying to sift through in threads that have anything to do with BW and SC2 mentioned in the same place. bet you wouldn't be "all for it" if it was SC2 being put in "hibernation" instead, jackass
How am I all for it? I didn't say if it was a good or a bad thing. Thank you for showing me some more of that hostility that goes with these threads though.
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On October 13 2010 03:04 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 03:01 Sfydjklm wrote:On October 13 2010 02:40 mdb wrote:
I`m so sad reading all of this. The worst thing is that someone managed to destroy a pro-scene that was build so hard over the years for a game that is just simply worse than bw. I cant get over this. i understand these feelings but the main reason i love SC2 so is because we finally have a chance of seeing an international professional e-sports scene. And i am willing to accept BW as sacrifice for the greater good:X You have no idea what you're talking about. If BW dies then who will think e-sports is going to last? Also, the reason e-sports didn't develop in the west is because of the culture, not lack of trying on Kespa's part or something.
e-sports have been born like a decade before SCBW came out. So e-sports will be fine.
And no, we have had plenty of professional gamers in WC3, CS and various shooters such as painkiller or quake live, and its not out of realm of possibility that SC2 will be the game to break through uniting SCBW and WC3 fans as well as quiet possibly CS ones(since its getting largely boring and we saw even xeqtr play SC2)
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Really really good news. So cool being a part of this growing game =)
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If someone thinks e-sports is better off not having sc2 they have been living under a rock imo.
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On October 13 2010 03:01 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 02:40 mdb wrote:
I`m so sad reading all of this. The worst thing is that someone managed to destroy a pro-scene that was build so hard over the years for a game that is just simply worse than bw. I cant get over this. i understand these feelings but the main reason i love SC2 so is because we finally have a chance of seeing an international professional e-sports scene. And i am willing to accept BW as sacrifice for the greater good:X
This is the other thing that bothers me. So much money are poured into SC2, without anyone knowing if it will be a good e-sports game. Especially when talking about RTS games, at least an year or two have to pass before its clear if the game is ok IMO. BW pro-scene started only after all the balancing was done and the interest in the game was growing.
Now we have the opposite, incredible ammount of money are given to establish a pro-scene for a game two years old, regardless that still there are not even normal maps to play on, not to mention the balance.
The foundation of the bw pro-scene were us - the fans, who have grown up with this game. We supported it no matter what. We still play it and watch it regardless of all the new games that come out.
I am afraid that after 2-3 years, when Diablo 3 is out, or the latest WOW expansion is out the same "super fans of pro SC2" will just move over to the newest hit game and this will be it. We`ll be left with no korea sc and SC2 scene similar to the current WC3.
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EPT
