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As I'm so fond of mentioning, Zerg is not so much "underpowered" in the sense that it can't compete, but in the sense that it has less viable options. Like, remember back in Beta where it would be all shits and giggles because every race would have their OP units, and we could go "omg roaches so OP, omg marauders so OP, omg sentries so OP, omg brood lords so OP, omg tanks so OP, omg void rays so OP, etc." Unfortunately, the state of Zerg units now is that they are OP if they have the potential to be cost-effective (see: baneling, ultralisk). Compare that to Terran, where many Terrans still insist that Thors and hellions are underpowered, even though they kill many times their resource and supply value. But this is not a Terran OP/Zerg UP thread. Rather, it's a thread about the fact that Zerg has less options.
I hope I'm wrong in saying this, but as I see it, Blizzard gave Zerg a tremendously abusable (yes, it's "OP") macro mechanic. In the beta, many top Zergs (read: the legendary Korean Zergs) were able to abuse this mechanic, which, combined with the 1 supply roach, meant that Zerg dominated the early beta scene. Blizzard responded to this by cutting Zerg options and making Zerg units less and less cost effective (e.g. infestor spell nerfs, the removal of corruption, roach/hydra nerfs). So, their thought process seems to be to make the Zerg units utter crap to counterbalance the fact that you can pump them incredibly fast. But this doesn't address the fundamental issues of the race itself, which has turned into a race that relies solely on its macro mechanic to stay competitive. Right now, Blizzard is busy tweaking numbers so that the stats at the top can stay fairly even. But that does nothing about the actual gameplay, where Zergs are both suffering because of their lack of options and dominating because of the macro mechanic.
So, here are my ideal patch changes:
Maps:
- The terrain surrounding ramps is now unbuildable
(Prevents 2 pylon + cannon and 2 bunker contains)
- NEW MAPS!!!!!!
Zerg:
- Hatcheries, Lairs, and Hives now have a 5 larva cap
(Significantly decreases the abusable-ness of spawn larva, as well as forces the Zerg to manage his larva)
- Roach base health increased from 145 to 160
- Roaches can now burrow through cliffs and elevated terrain
(Roaches were seriously underwhelming for a 2 supply unit. Not too sure about the burrowing through cliffs thing, but I think it's a really interesting idea at the very least...)
- Hydralisk movement speed increased
- Hydralisk damage changed from 12 to 10 +5 damage to armored
(A light unit that does bonus damage to armored?!? Imagine that, Blizzard!)
- Overlord base movement speed increased
- Corruption now has an area of effect
(Makes corruptors a little less terrible)
- Overseers now start with 75 energy instead of 50
- Neural parasite energy cost decreased from 100 to 50
- Neural parasite research time decreased from 110 to 80
- Neural parasite duration increased from 10 seconds to 20 seconds
Some other things I would change:
Non-defensive structure buildings are now unarmored
Terran:
lol
Protoss:
Decrease charge research time and cost
Decrease warp prism build time and cost
Decrease observer build time
Combine the dark and light shrines into one building
Possibly even give dark templar a nifty upgrade
 
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very interesting, love it.
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How do you detect sarcasm over the internet ?
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On September 22 2010 06:23 PaD wrote:
How do you detect sarcasm over the internet ?
check out what Saracen wrote about Terran.
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Baa?21243 Posts
Who the fuck says Thors are underpowered .___.
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On September 22 2010 06:26 s.a.y wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 06:23 PaD wrote:
How do you detect sarcasm over the internet ? check out what Saracen wrote about Terran.
\o/
saracen advocates instantly surrendering vs terran
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Roaches I think are just fine at 145 hp. Perhaps the 2 armour should be back, since only the units its supposed to counter have problems with that. I like the hydra change and burrow change though.
I think neural parasite is just fine as it is, with units like colossus, siege tanks and thors its incredibly powerful as long as you don't rely on them to do everything.
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On September 22 2010 06:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Who the fuck says Thors are underpowered .___.
I have seen people on blizzard forums who insist that Thors need their "concussive grenade" upgrade so they would be better against mutas
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- The terrain surrounding ramps is now unbuildable
good bye forge FE 
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I kinda like the hydralisk change. They were never meant for killing marines and zealots anyway.
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Roaches burrowing up cliffs wouldn't work because of how hard it would be to defend. Not sure about hp change. The larva cap change, does that mean that hatches now also generate up to 5 larva?
Not sure about hydra damage change. If I'm not wrong, there isn't a single unit in the game that does cross type damage bonus (light does more to armored and vice versa) and it might screw some balance up. As a terran who've recently started doing really thor heavy greedy mech play I can see NP changes being useful.
Pretty interesting list all in all, not sure how actually balanced it'd be. :p
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On September 22 2010 06:36 green.at wrote:- The terrain surrounding ramps is now unbuildable good bye forge FE
you could build the wall a little bit farther from the ramp... or even stuff probes in the single matrix gap.
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I like most of your changes, but the larvae cap nerf is unbearably strict. I'd either scrap it (and tone down some of your buffs) or make it something reasonable like 10.
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No, 5 capped larvae would be terrible. There would be nothing for zerg anymore while terrans have mules, protoss chrono boost, and queens would be a lot more worthless now
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Tip: if you're trying to pretend you don't think Terran is OP, don't write lol behind it.
5 larva-cap: I can't imagine how this wouldn't break matchups.
Roach health increase: I think roaches are good for their cost, but i wouldn't really mind either.
Burrow through cliffs: horrible idea unless it's an extra upgrade. "Invisible" units that can enter your bases wherever they want would be abused to death and very likely OP.
Hydralisk movement speed increase: Again, if it's an upgrade I would like it, it would be a choice between spreading creep or getting speed for every unit. I think it's clearly a design choice by Blizzard though.
Hydralisk damage: their damage is awesome.
Overlord speed increase: you have an upgrade for that, I think zerg players really undervalue getting to see the entire map with Overlords. Checking your opponents base shouldn't be risk free.
Corruption AoE: I don't think corruption is a bad spell, Corrupters are just boring units. Maybe they should just have a more interesting ability that doesn't simply weaken the targeted units. Maybe lower their movement speed or something?
Overseer starting with 75 energy: why? All races have to get upgrades for starting with more energy.
NP energy decrease: fine, just not in combination with the longer duration.
NP research time decrease: I don't see how this change would help Zergs but it wouldn't break any matchups either.
NP duration increase: see NP energy 
Unarmored structures: why? It doesn't make sense for buildings to be unarmored, and it would just make other units kill building more easily. (8 stim marine drop instead of 4 stim marauders).
Charge research time decrease: Charge is a very good ability and I don't see why it should be quicker to get.
Decrease Warp Prism time and cost: I think it would benefit more from some increased durability. Time and cost aren't very high as is. It's use largely overlaps with proxy pylons which are just easier overall.
Decrease observer build time: hell no, these things are the best scouts in the game.
Combine Dark and Light Shrine: Blizzard wants Protoss players to choose a tech path, but I wouldn't mind if cost and building time would be adjusted accordingly.
Dark Templar upgrade: hell yeah, just not something stupid like temporary invulnerability or disabling detection 
Terrain surrounding ramps unbuildable: yeah, this is just stupid.
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On September 22 2010 06:49 Tazza wrote:
No, 5 capped larvae would be terrible. There would be nothing for zerg anymore while terrans have mules, protoss chrono boost, and queens would be a lot more worthless now
Strict is good. If I have to macro well but I get units that are worth a damn, I'll take it.
Spreading creep and getting speed upgardes are not "options". Creep is good. Speed upgrade is good. Combination is better. You can't just spread creep where you want any more. People are scanning and using obs to assassinate creep tumours a lot more.
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I don't really agree with how you're trying to balance things. I'm not a fan of bonus damage in the first place, however, so keep that in mind. If it's works without it, no need to change it.
I'd sooner see...
Zerg:
- Burrow: Changed back to 50/50 from 100/100.
- Roach movement speed when burrowed increased by .5.
- Tunneling Claw research time reduced by 20%, regen increased to 15 from 5 (previously increased to 10 from 5) when burrowed. Tunneling claws once again increases regeneration rate when not burrowed to 1 hp/s.
- Hydralisk Range Upgrade Cost reduced to 100/100 from 150/150.
- Hydralisk Speed Upgrade (researchable at Hive): increases hydralisk speed by .5.
- Both Zerglings and Hydralisks can instantly burrow like Roaches do, instead of having an animation and doing it slowly.
- Overseer cost: Changed to 25/75 from 50/100.
- Adrenal Glands: Increases Zergling attack speed by 33% (from 20%)
- Ultralisk: Buildtime reduced to 80% of current buildtime, attack reduced from +25 to armor to +15 to armor.
- Corrupter Range increased by 1
- Infestor neural parasite cost reduced to 100/100, energy cost reduced by 25, can channel for 20s (from 12s).
- Larvae capped at 7 per hatchery (3 for auto building, 4 for inject). Next inject can be injected, however timer will not start until there is 3 or less larave on hatchery.
Terran:
- Bunker cannot be salvagable when under attack. Salvage time increased by 50%. Bunker build time increased by +5s.
- Concussive shells cost increased to 100/100 (from 50/50)
- Siege tank attack in siege mode increased to 60 (from 50), now has 1s delay between shot fired and hitting target
- SCVs using repair now are given same priority as if using attack command
- Thor preattack delay for 150 MM cannons reduced by 50%, will slow down an ultra (similar effect to Marauder concussives) when under barrage (same with colossus, instead of stunning however).
- Reactor build time reduced by 8s
- Mule now has a cooldown to cast of 10s.
Protoss:
- Warpgate research time reduced by 20%, cost increased to 100/100
- Charge research time reduced by 20%, cost reduced to 100/100 from 200/200
- Dark Shrine cost reduced to 100/150 from 100/250.
- Observer cost reduced to 25/75 from 25/100
- Observer speed + Warp Prism speed combined into a single upgrade costing 100/100.
- Archon splash damage increased (slightly)
- Carrier build time reduced to 90s (from 120s)
- Mothership buildtime reduced to 120 s (from 160s).
- Mothership attack increased to 12 (from 6)
- Vortex spell casts immediately, range increased
- Void Ray build time increased by 15%, damage vs armored reduced by 33% but time in order to reach full charge reduced by 33% (can tweak numbers, but essentially will charge a lot faster vs a single target, but will be less effective killing mass amounts of units over time. Would be more effective vs units like vikings if it could get to that higher damage faster). Damage vs massive remains (thus significantly more effective vs BC's, Carriers, Thors, Ultras, Broodlords, etc. than currently).
- Increased time to construct gateway by 6s, reduced time to build Cybernetics core by 6s (delays initial zealots in zealot rushes, but not reinforcing ones. Also does not affect stalker timing).
EDIT: Really like your "can't build buildings at base of ramp" idea.
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On September 22 2010 06:13 Saracen wrote:
Terran:
lol
Stop. You had me at 'lol'.
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Some solid ideas here. I always felt the same way about spawn larvae.
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You had that same idea as me about the Corruption change. I to think that it would feel more appropriate as an aoe.
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wait I get the feeling this is a joke but I can't tell
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The 7 larva cap is pretty retarded (as if the mechanic needs to be more unforgiving), and roaches burrowing through cliffs would also be retarded. Other than that I like alot of these ideas. I honestly think the reason Z has no options is that its extremely difficult to make it into the midgame with a solid economy.
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That's wayyyy too many buffs for zerg, games have had big balance shifts with way less than that. This would be like a tsunami of shifting.
Or since I think they are a lot of good ideas, and I think more could be added to the game, improve the other races more too.
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I think you've overdone it a bit.
Roaches should get 2 armor back, but stay at 2 supply.
Hydras should move faster, maybe get knocked down to 10+2 armored damage because their DPS is pretty crazy.
Charge should be on the cyber core with the same cost in minerals/gas.
Marauders shouldn't be able to stim, OR stim should do 1/3 of their HP.
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Guys im pretty sure this is sarcasm
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I'm into the combining of the templar buildings. As it stands right now, if you see a dark shrine; "derrr, guess ima get some detection, nice phallic building yo."
Combining the two buildings would release the terror again.
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On September 22 2010 06:54 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 06:49 Tazza wrote:
No, 5 capped larvae would be terrible. There would be nothing for zerg anymore while terrans have mules, protoss chrono boost, and queens would be a lot more worthless now Strict is good. If I have to macro well but I get units that are worth a damn, I'll take it. Spreading creep and getting speed upgardes are not "options". Creep is good. Speed upgrade is good. Combination is better. You can't just spread creep where you want any more. People are scanning and using obs to assassinate creep tumours a lot more.
I just think that the other races have much much easier macro, and the larvae thing helped zerg out by evening it out, although its mechanics are harder than other races. I think with 5 capped larvae, it would be much more like SC1 where you need 250 apm to play decently. Zerg already needs around 50 more apm than other races with the same skill level. I don't see why zerg needs to require more apm than it already does
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Saracen I think you're going a little far with the neural parasite I for one wouldn't agree with all 3 buffs maybe 2/3, and a nerfed 3rd like (15seconds instead of 20)
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On September 22 2010 06:13 Saracen wrote:
Decrease charge research time and cost
THANK YOU.
Pretty good stuff overall (I like the innovation!), but Charge should absolutely be 150/150, not 200/200.
I'd only add that Marauders should cost 50 gas rather than 25. I think that simple nerf would be all it takes to lessen the cries of imbalance of the Terran bio ball.
Nice OP
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I literally don't think any Terran player has ever said Thors or Hellions are underpowered. You're just constructing strawmen to tear down.
Roaches burrowing through cliffs? Lol wtf? So basically you just created the most powerful 'cloaked' unit in the entire game, and if you don't have detection at every single part of the perimeter of your base, you can have an entire army pop up in the middle of your mineral line an insta-kill all your workers and your nexus/cc? Yeah...
I'm not sure if that's a serious suggestion or not. The hydra suggestion isn't bad though (bonus to armored, less damage to light).
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On September 22 2010 06:59 FabledIntegral wrote:I don't really agree with how you're trying to balance things. I'm not a fan of bonus damage in the first place, however, so keep that in mind. If it's works without it, no need to change it. I'd sooner see... + Show Spoiler +
Zerg:
- Burrow: Changed back to 50/50 from 100/100.
- Roach movement speed when burrowed increased by .5.
- Tunneling Claw research time reduced by 20%, regen increased to 15 from 5 (previously increased to 10 from 5) when burrowed. Tunneling claws once again increases regeneration rate when not burrowed to 1 hp/s.
- Hydralisk Range Upgrade Cost reduced to 100/100 from 150/150.
- Hydralisk Speed Upgrade (researchable at Hive): increases hydralisk speed by .5.
- Both Zerglings and Hydralisks can instantly burrow like Roaches do, instead of having an animation and doing it slowly.
- Overseer cost: Changed to 25/75 from 50/100.
- Adrenal Glands: Increases Zergling attack speed by 33% (from 20%)
- Ultralisk: Buildtime reduced to 80% of current buildtime, attack reduced from +25 to armor to +15 to armor.
- Corrupter Range increased by 1
- Infestor neural parasite cost reduced to 100/100, energy cost reduced by 25, can channel for 20s (from 12s).
- Larvae capped at 7 per hatchery (3 for auto building, 4 for inject). Next inject can be injected, however timer will not start until there is 3 or less larave on hatchery.
Terran:
- Bunker cannot be salvagable when under attack. Salvage time increased by 50%. Bunker build time increased by +5s.
- Concussive shells cost increased to 100/100 (from 50/50)
- Siege tank attack in siege mode increased to 60 (from 50), now has 1s delay between shot fired and hitting target
- SCVs using repair now are given same priority as if using attack command
- Thor preattack delay for 150 MM cannons reduced by 50%, will slow down an ultra (similar effect to Marauder concussives) when under barrage (same with colossus, instead of stunning however).
- Reactor build time reduced by 8s
- Mule now has a cooldown to cast of 10s.
Protoss:
- Warpgate research time reduced by 20%, cost increased to 100/100
- Charge research time reduced by 20%, cost reduced to 100/100 from 200/200
- Dark Shrine cost reduced to 100/150 from 100/250.
- Observer cost reduced to 25/75 from 25/100
- Observer speed + Warp Prism speed combined into a single upgrade costing 100/100.
- Archon splash damage increased (slightly)
- Carrier build time reduced to 90s (from 120s)
- Mothership buildtime reduced to 120 s (from 160s).
- Mothership attack increased to 12 (from 6)
- Vortex spell casts immediately, range increased
- Void Ray build time increased by 15%, damage vs armored reduced by 33% but time in order to reach full charge reduced by 33% (can tweak numbers, but essentially will charge a lot faster vs a single target, but will be less effective killing mass amounts of units over time. Would be more effective vs units like vikings if it could get to that higher damage faster). Damage vs massive remains (thus significantly more effective vs BC's, Carriers, Thors, Ultras, Broodlords, etc. than currently).
- Increased time to construct gateway by 6s, reduced time to build Cybernetics core by 6s (delays initial zealots in zealot rushes, but not reinforcing ones. Also does not affect stalker timing).
EDIT: Really like your "can't build buildings at base of ramp" idea.
Wow, I really like these changes (although I don't agree with all of them)
I think a lot of these would significantly improve the game. Very well done.
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On September 22 2010 06:59 FabledIntegral wrote:I don't really agree with how you're trying to balance things. I'm not a fan of bonus damage in the first place, however, so keep that in mind. If it's works without it, no need to change it. I'd sooner see... + Show Spoiler +Zerg:
- Burrow: Changed back to 50/50 from 100/100.
- Roach movement speed when burrowed increased by .5.
- Tunneling Claw research time reduced by 20%, regen increased to 15 from 5 (previously increased to 10 from 5) when burrowed. Tunneling claws once again increases regeneration rate when not burrowed to 1 hp/s.
- Hydralisk Range Upgrade Cost reduced to 100/100 from 150/150.
- Hydralisk Speed Upgrade (researchable at Hive): increases hydralisk speed by .5.
- Both Zerglings and Hydralisks can instantly burrow like Roaches do, instead of having an animation and doing it slowly.
- Overseer cost: Changed to 25/75 from 50/100.
- Adrenal Glands: Increases Zergling attack speed by 33% (from 20%)
- Ultralisk: Buildtime reduced to 80% of current buildtime, attack reduced from +25 to armor to +15 to armor.
- Corrupter Range increased by 1
- Infestor neural parasite cost reduced to 100/100, energy cost reduced by 25, can channel for 20s (from 12s).
- Larvae capped at 7 per hatchery (3 for auto building, 4 for inject). Next inject can be injected, however timer will not start until there is 3 or less larave on hatchery.
Terran:
- Bunker cannot be salvagable when under attack. Salvage time increased by 50%. Bunker build time increased by +5s.
- Concussive shells cost increased to 100/100 (from 50/50)
- Siege tank attack in siege mode increased to 60 (from 50), now has 1s delay between shot fired and hitting target
- SCVs using repair now are given same priority as if using attack command
- Thor preattack delay for 150 MM cannons reduced by 50%, will slow down an ultra (similar effect to Marauder concussives) when under barrage (same with colossus, instead of stunning however).
- Reactor build time reduced by 8s
- Mule now has a cooldown to cast of 10s.
Protoss:
- Warpgate research time reduced by 20%, cost increased to 100/100
- Charge research time reduced by 20%, cost reduced to 100/100 from 200/200
- Dark Shrine cost reduced to 100/150 from 100/250.
- Observer cost reduced to 25/75 from 25/100
- Observer speed + Warp Prism speed combined into a single upgrade costing 100/100.
- Archon splash damage increased (slightly)
- Carrier build time reduced to 90s (from 120s)
- Mothership buildtime reduced to 120 s (from 160s).
- Mothership attack increased to 12 (from 6)
- Vortex spell casts immediately, range increased
- Void Ray build time increased by 15%, damage vs armored reduced by 33% but time in order to reach full charge reduced by 33% (can tweak numbers, but essentially will charge a lot faster vs a single target, but will be less effective killing mass amounts of units over time. Would be more effective vs units like vikings if it could get to that higher damage faster). Damage vs massive remains (thus significantly more effective vs BC's, Carriers, Thors, Ultras, Broodlords, etc. than currently).
- Increased time to construct gateway by 6s, reduced time to build Cybernetics core by 6s (delays initial zealots in zealot rushes, but not reinforcing ones. Also does not affect stalker timing).
EDIT: Really like your "can't build buildings at base of ramp" idea.
The only reason why bonus damage is in the game is I believe Blizzard tried to change their "damage system" from BW. In BW it was this unit did 50% damage to this type of unit and did 100% to that type of unit. Example: Hydras did half damage to zealots and zerglings, basically light type units and did full damage against medium type units like Dragoons/Reavers and such. In SC2 instead of having to go look online to see which unit did X amount of damage they just implemented it into the game for you so you can see how much damage a certain unit does. You can't have a unit doing full damage to everything, it wouldn't be balanced that way, some units need to have the upper hand on specific units.
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EPT
