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Erroneous "manner" usage has taken on an almost meme-like rampancy and must be stopped. EDIT: just letting ya know.. feel free to prolong the meme.
"Manner" is a noun and not an adjective.
Stop using it to predicate subjects as if it were an adjective.
erroneous examples
"so-and-so is a great player and really manner too!"
"what a manner move"
"he's a bad terran but always really manner"
Manner simply refers to "a way of doing something".
"The manner in which he controls his Colossus is far superior to all others."
By qualifying with "well" or "bad" we can transform the noun "manner" into a descriptive adjective" thusly:
"The well-mannered host made sure to abide each and everyone of his guests' wishes.
N.B.
The word itself does not carry any qualities of its own (e.g. well mannered or bad mannered).
Even in a sentence such as "He is a mannered player" (where the word is used correctly in a grammatical sense) you still have not actually told us anything about his manner but just that he has a "way of doing things" which ought to be quite obvious in the first place.
+ Show Spoiler [Daigomi's appendix] +On September 16 2010 22:53 Daigomi wrote:
Haha, this annoys me so much too :p I don't mind it so much when people leave out the qualifier, since you could argue that it's a case of omission: "He is a mannered player" simply omits the "well," which is fine if it is generally accepted that mannered means well mannered. I'm fairly sure there are examples of this in standard English but I can't think of any right now.
What does annoy me is when it is used in its noun form, "He is such a good manner player" or "Idra is really bad manner." If "bad mannered" sounds awkward, just use the abbreviation "Idra is really BM."
Also, I don't like the language evolves argument. There's a difference between language evolving and ignoring the egregrious misuse of language. I mean, we can all start talking about "should of" if we wanted to, but it wouldn't make it correct. Furthermore, it doesn't make logical sense. Talking about a "manner player" is like talking about a "discipline monk" or an "arm criminal," grammatically it's awkward and the change is pointless.
If I thought that it was simply a form of slang it would probably not bother me, but I doubt that everyone who uses it incorrectly knows the correct use. All in all, it just feels like a really unnecessary change that achieves nothing except making the sentence sound incorrect.
  
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W ho cares ? srsly, we can make up words and use dem in relation to starcraft itself, I don't see a problem with using "manner" as an adjective,
im pretty manner guy too
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That is how we, as a community, use it. Deal with it or gtfo.
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Even though these posts aren't very manner, I have to agree. There's just been a slight generalization/shift in category from noun to adj, it happens.
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I strongly agree with the OP, the way "manner" is used nowadays sound so stupid...
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This blog isn't very manner.
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On September 16 2010 21:56 deth wrote:
W ho cares ? srsly, we can make up words and use dem in relation to starcraft itself, I don't see a problem with using "manner" as an adjective,
im pretty manner guy too
Well, obviously I care and you do not. We know that much you tomfool.
I made this post for all the non-native speakers of English. They hear casters and read posts with erroneous language. I simply made this for them to let them know that while its fun to jump on the band wagon and talk like everyone else it is nonetheless wrong.
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not very manner of you to shit on the starcraft dialect, was it?
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Everyone knows this but it's a fun adjective to use amongst the starcraft community. It's not a big deal whatsoever.
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On September 16 2010 22:07 scottyyy wrote:
Everyone knows this but it's a fun adjective to use amongst the starcraft community. It's not a big deal whatsoever.
exactly. even if it is a nightmare for non english speaking users they need to manner up and get with the program.
the context will almost always determine if the word means "Bad mannered" (or bad manners) or "Good mannered" (good manners) when used as an adjective.
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I think you made this post to change the way people speak not just to tell non native speakers it is incorrect lol It's ok you did it in a manner way
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
language evolves you know? that's really all that needs to be said.
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On September 16 2010 22:05 chrisSquire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 21:56 deth wrote:
W ho cares ? srsly, we can make up words and use dem in relation to starcraft itself, I don't see a problem with using "manner" as an adjective,
im pretty manner guy too Well, obviously I care and you do not. We know that much you tomfool. I made this post for all the non-native speakers of English. They hear casters and read posts with erroneous language. I simply made this for them to let them know that while its fun to jump on the band wagon and talk like everyone else it is nonetheless wrong.
It's not erroneous usage though. Language changes.
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When I used to play only on Battle.net, I remember reading first seeing manner used by Koreans in their game names (it would be written in hangeul). In my mind, I had always thought that the Koreans had come up with the term so it wasn't very surprising to me that it wasn't proper English, and I accepted it for what it was.
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On September 16 2010 21:52 chrisSquire wrote:
Erroneous "manner" usage has taken on an almost meme-like rampancy and must be stopped.
This statement makes the situation seem so dire, when actually it's just something the community has done for years. We're not all morons, it's part of the lingo.
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"should of" is 10 times more annoying , stop that first please!
and the good old "your" vs "you're"
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It's a community adopted term, haha... What's wrong with it?
There's always posts like this and it's quite odd to me really. It's as if people think language hasn't changed or evolved since the day it was created. It's not like we all go around saying things like 'noob' and 'manner' and 'roflstomp' thinking that it's in a damn english textbook somewhere... We understand, but we still use it because it's a universally understood form of slang.
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If language never evolved we'd all be speaking some sort of ancient prehistoric grunting language from the early years of B.C.E.
that being said I wouldn't want to have to learn english through the teamliquid forums. (news articles are well written but the overall TL poster is quite a grammatical noob or does not take the time/effort to post in good english, I know I don't)
oh and it's quite fun when you meetup with TL users or other people from the community to use these words in these ways. :D
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manner up
edit: i actually had this sig before you made this thread, so don't think it's out of spite or something. ^_^
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On September 16 2010 21:52 chrisSquire wrote:
Erroneous "manner" usage has taken on an almost meme-like rampancy and must be stopped.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/5KVul.jpg)
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On September 16 2010 22:22 fly.stat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 21:52 chrisSquire wrote:
Erroneous "manner" usage has taken on an almost meme-like rampancy and must be stopped.
wow, did my OP inspire this comic? It is really funny but would work better if you changed the word order as such "Shut, everything, down"
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^ actually we're not using it as just an adjective, "manner up" would classify as a noun/verb thing, a reverse gerund perhaps without the conjugation. weird.
i love internet english, so many crazy twists.
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Manner pylon is an exception!.
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On September 16 2010 22:24 chrisSquire wrote:
wow, did my OP inspire this comic? It is really funny but would work better if you changed the word order as such "Shut, everything, down"
It's a comic from a flash game. I just changed the top right frame.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
Historical Fact: The way manner is now used like that in the gaming community was originated by V-Gundam and ElkY who made it one of their cute little words which people caught onto.
I remember many times elky or gundam would say "매너 줘!" (manner jo, literally 'give me manner') and Daniel Lee used to say "STOP SAYING THAT IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE YOU CAN'T GIVE MANNER."
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On September 16 2010 22:18 LuckyFool wrote:
oh and it's quite fun when you meetup with TL users or other people from the community to use these words in these ways. :D
That's the best part imo.
These kind of blogs I find to be a little bit retarded, no offense intended. I do complain about posters who don't use commas or write entire walls of text, but that's because it makes things harder on the eyes and more difficult to comprehend. However, in this case we're using a simple word to express something we all understand. We're not making text harder to grasp, but quite the contrary.
Plus, anybody can write a dictionary entry as a blog post. No fun in that.
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On September 16 2010 22:05 chrisSquire wrote:
Well, obviously I care and you do not. We know that much you tomfool.
I made this post for all the non-native speakers of English. They hear casters and read posts with erroneous language. I simply made this for them to let them know that while its fun to jump on the band wagon and talk like everyone else it is nonetheless wrong.
No it's not. Who died and made you President of the English language?
Words are invented all the time. The meanings and usages of words can be, and are, changed to suit the occasion. If linguistic rules were never broken, why aren't you speaking Shakespearean or Old English right now? The rules by which words are deemed 'correct' usage is by consensus, not by diktat from dictionary writers or grammarians or English professors. The point of dictionaries is to document the language, not to dictate it.
The only 'wrong' language is the language that doesn't impart, to the listener, the meaning that the speaker intended, and that's not the case here. Pretty much everyone listening gets what a manner building is.
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On September 16 2010 22:25 Garnet wrote:
Manner pylon is an exception!.
Manner Pylon is grammatical correct indeed. This is because it is a compound noun. Like "Tooth Paste" or Hospital Bed.
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On September 16 2010 22:27 Rekrul wrote:
Historical Fact: The way manner is now used like that in the gaming community was originated by V-Gundam and ElkY who made it one of their cute little words which people caught onto.
I remember many times elky or gundam would say "매너 줘!" (manner jo, literally 'give me manner') and Daniel Lee used to say "STOP SAYING THAT IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE YOU CAN'T GIVE MANNER."
!
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I don't think it's very manner to come over from wherever to tell the Starcraft community their lingo is not grammatically correct and that we must stop using it because you aren't used to it.
It's basically the same as the people who think "gl hf" and "gg" are stupid.
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On September 16 2010 21:56 deth wrote:
W ho cares ? srsly, we can make up words and use dem in relation to starcraft itself, I don't see a problem with using "manner" as an adjective,
im pretty manner guy too
lol
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On September 16 2010 22:30 chrisSquire wrote:Manner Pylon is grammatical correct indeed. This is because it is a compound noun. Like "Tooth Paste" or Hospital Bed. But saying something like "Even though the tournament was run by amateurs, it turned out pretty well and all the participants were super manner." As beloved to "the community" as such memes are they are still laughable.
I think you should go spam a baseball forum telling them that the term Home Run is 'laughable' because home can not be used as an adjective in the english language.
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On September 16 2010 22:32 Bash wrote:
I don't think it's very manner to come over from wherever to tell the Starcraft community their lingo is not grammatically correct and that we must stop using it because you aren't used to it.
It's basically the same as the people who think "gl hf" and "gg" are stupid.
i think if it's done knowingly then it shouldn't be cause for alarm. What is worrying is when people have a totally fucked up diction due to ignorance. The compliment/complement word trap comes to mind -- really makes me sad when people screw this up, especially from news sites.
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I find it quite cute. I get bothered when people mix up 'lose' and 'loose' eg- 'zerg payers shouldn't complain when they loose'.
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On September 16 2010 22:32 Bash wrote:
I don't think it's very manner to come over from wherever to tell the Starcraft community their lingo is not grammatically correct and that we must stop using it because you aren't used to it.
It's basically the same as the people who think "gl hf" and "gg" are stupid.
Is it basically the same or is it the same? It is neither.
Read the OP again. I made an argument based on standard English Grammar which holds that "manner" is still just a noun.
GL and HF are abbreviations but "JoJo is a manner guy" and "Protoss is the most manner race" are abominations.
Just because I made a blog to tell "the community" the error of their manner of speaking I do not thereby compel you to change your meme-loving ways. I am just making this for posterity.
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TL's usage of the word is not acceptable in the English speaking community at large, but is widely understood within the TL community.
"Manner" doesn't conjure such confusion of meanings as "troll" and "metagame" do, so I feel the usage is fine and doesn't warrant debate.
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On September 16 2010 22:15 Naib wrote:
"should of" is 10 times more annoying , stop that first please!
and the good old "your" vs "you're"
I agree. Abolish "should of" first. Then "I could care less." Then whatever. I think that while you do not have good manners, you have one manner and that one manner is indeed very very good, which must be why I agree with you
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On September 16 2010 22:36 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 22:30 chrisSquire wrote:On September 16 2010 22:25 Garnet wrote:
Manner pylon is an exception!. Manner Pylon is grammatical correct indeed. This is because it is a compound noun. Like "Tooth Paste" or Hospital Bed. But saying something like "Even though the tournament was run by amateurs, it turned out pretty well and all the participants were super manner." As beloved to "the community" as such memes are they are still laughable. I think you should go spam a baseball forum telling them that the term Home Run is 'laughable' because home can not be used as an adjective in the english language.
Home Run is a compound noun. Compound nouns can be made of the following combinations:
Noun + Noun toothpaste
Adjective + Noun monthly ticket
Verb + Noun swimming pool
Prep. + Noun underground
Noun + Verb haircut
Noun + Preposition hanger on
Adjective + Verb dry-cleaning
Prep. + Verb output
It's not everyday that one is granted the opportunity teach the illustrious Rekrul. I can only hope that in the future I will be further blessed with the chance to learn from him.
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On September 16 2010 22:04 LuckyFool wrote:
This blog isn't very manner.
^^
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On September 16 2010 22:43 chrisSquire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 22:36 Rekrul wrote:On September 16 2010 22:30 chrisSquire wrote:On September 16 2010 22:25 Garnet wrote:
Manner pylon is an exception!. Manner Pylon is grammatical correct indeed. This is because it is a compound noun. Like "Tooth Paste" or Hospital Bed. But saying something like "Even though the tournament was run by amateurs, it turned out pretty well and all the participants were super manner." As beloved to "the community" as such memes are they are still laughable. I think you should go spam a baseball forum telling them that the term Home Run is 'laughable' because home can not be used as an adjective in the english language. Home Run is a compound noun. Compound nouns can be made of adj + noun (silly post) or noun +noun (home run) or preposition + noun (underground) or prep + verb (output)
lol you might have won the grammar game but i'm pretty sure rekrul will win the gtfo game, might want to categorically avoid the idea of playing games in this situation
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Most people are used to it since it has been used this way for like 9 years now. I guess it can be annoying if you are new to the Starcraft multiplayer community experience
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On September 16 2010 22:47 floor exercise wrote:
Most people are used to it since it has been used this way for like 9 years now. I guess it can be annoying if you are new to the Starcraft multiplayer community experience
/troll banish lvl 3
Do not be dismayed by my low post count. I have suffered this burden for years.
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I think you should blame the Koreans.
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South Africa4316 Posts
Haha, this annoys me so much too :p I don't mind it so much when people leave out the qualifier, since you could argue that it's a case of omission: "He is a mannered player" simply omits the "well," which is fine if it is generally accepted that mannered means well mannered. I'm fairly sure there are examples of this in standard English but I can't think of any right now.
What does annoy me is when it is used in its noun form, "He is such a good manner player" or "Idra is really bad manner." If "bad mannered" sounds awkward, just use the abbreviation "Idra is really BM."
Also, I don't like the language evolves argument. There's a difference between language evolving and ignoring the egregrious misuse of language. I mean, we can all start talking about "should of" if we wanted to, but it wouldn't make it correct. Furthermore, it doesn't make logical sense. Talking about a "manner player" is like talking about a "discipline monk" or an "arm criminal," grammatically it's awkward and the change is pointless.
If I thought that it was simply a form of slang it would probably not bother me, but I doubt that everyone who uses it incorrectly knows the correct use. All in all, it just feels like a really unnecessary change that achieves nothing except making the sentence sound incorrect.
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On September 16 2010 22:53 Daigomi wrote:
Haha, this annoys me so much too :p I don't mind it so much when people leave out the qualifier, since you could argue that it's a case of omission: "He is a mannered player" simply omits the "well," which is fine if it is generally accepted that mannered means well mannered. I'm fairly sure there are examples of this in standard English but I can't think of any right now.
What does annoy me is when it is used in its noun form, "He is such a good manner player" or "Idra is really bad manner." If "bad mannered" sounds awkward, just use the abbreviation "Idra is really BM."
Also, I don't like the language evolves argument. There's a difference between language evolving and ignoring the egregrious misuse of language. I mean, we can all start talking about "should of" if we wanted to, but it wouldn't make it correct. Furthermore, it doesn't make logical sense. Talking about a "manner player" is like talking about a "discipline monk" or an "arm criminal," grammatically it's awkward and the change is pointless.
If I thought that it was simply a form of slang it would probably not bother me, but I doubt that everyone who uses it incorrectly knows the correct use. All in all, it just feels like a really unnecessary change that achieves nothing except making the sentence sound incorrect.
I needed this. Thank you for showing me that there is still hope. I am all for omission of the qualifier. I should have mentioned that in the OP... would have kept the meme-sycophants at bay.
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This thread is not very manner
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This thread is just asking to make people angry. It's obviously a term for this group of people. What are you going to say next, "noob" isn't a word ? Or that battlecruisers aren't to scale ? Bunker salvaging doesn't make sense ?
Manner plz
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manner blog manners up the community
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On September 16 2010 22:30 chrisSquire wrote:Manner Pylon is grammatical correct indeed. This is because it is a compound noun. Like "Tooth Paste" or Hospital Bed.
Grammatically correct, correct?
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On September 16 2010 22:43 chrisSquire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 22:36 Rekrul wrote:On September 16 2010 22:30 chrisSquire wrote:On September 16 2010 22:25 Garnet wrote:
Manner pylon is an exception!. Manner Pylon is grammatical correct indeed. This is because it is a compound noun. Like "Tooth Paste" or Hospital Bed. But saying something like "Even though the tournament was run by amateurs, it turned out pretty well and all the participants were super manner." As beloved to "the community" as such memes are they are still laughable. I think you should go spam a baseball forum telling them that the term Home Run is 'laughable' because home can not be used as an adjective in the english language. Home Run is a compound noun. Compound nouns can be made of the following combinations: Noun + Noun toothpaste Adjective + Noun monthly ticket Verb + Noun swimming pool Prep. + Noun underground Noun + Verb haircut Noun + Preposition hanger on Adjective + Verb dry-cleaning Prep. + Verb output It's not everyday that one is granted the opportunity teach the illustrious Rekrul. I can only hope that in the future I will be further blessed with the chance to learn from him.
language is about the best form of communication. grammer shrammer blah. not playing by the rules in language could indeed make someone appear like an idiot, but other times it could make them a poet.
lol, though i do agree with you that the term is very overused by the community.
In it's current (grammatically incorrect) meme-ish state in the gaming community it is losing all value through blatant abuse by Artosis on GSL casts. As artosis uses the word, being a 'manner guy' is just being friendly in person, which almost everyone is, but thats not what manner is about. it's much deeper.
and for the record, even people not related to the gaming community don't ever question the grammatical incorrectness when you use 'manner' in the way you hate
*looks at girl angrily*
*looks down at empty shot glass angrily*
*looks back up at girl angrily and says*
"MANNER JO! (give me manner)"
*girl does not question grammar*
*girl fills shot glass*
actually now that i think about it i say 'manner please' to people who don't know anything about korean or sc and they always get it too lol
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You can't dictate language use, otherwise you end up like the Quebec French and are pretty much SOL with what schools want you to learn and how you actually speak it.
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A word is being used incorrectly on the internet??
Oh my goood!!!
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OP obviously hasn't been around very long.
Manner is just a way of describing a GM player.
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i can't stand the way "manner" is used in the BW community, gotta side with the OP on all the issues
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South Africa4316 Posts
On September 16 2010 23:31 ella_guru wrote:
You can't dictate language use, otherwise you end up like the Quebec French and are pretty much SOL with what schools want you to learn and how you actually speak it.
This point has been made a few times, but it seems like a fairly strange argument to make. Are you proposing that schools stop teaching language and that everyone speaks a language in whichever way they like? Every country in the world dictates language use to some extent. Some countries are just more autocratic about it than others.
The whole point is to find a compromise between descriptive linguistics and prescriptive linguistics. The purpose of language is to allow people to communicate and while people might be able to communicate fairly effectively by ignoring some rules of grammar, communication would be much less effective if all rules of grammar were relative. Personally I quite like the idea of language evolving and changing. However, I don't like language evolution when the changes either make the language more complex (for example, if "manner" changed in the way it is used here, it would be an exception to the rule which would further complexify English), or when language is made less complex but at the cost of clarity (for example, people who use adjectives instead of adverbs).
If language evolves it should become simpler or more concise, not more complex or vaguer.
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On September 16 2010 22:40 chrisSquire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 22:32 Bash wrote:
I don't think it's very manner to come over from wherever to tell the Starcraft community their lingo is not grammatically correct and that we must stop using it because you aren't used to it.
It's basically the same as the people who think "gl hf" and "gg" are stupid. Is it basically the same or is it the same? It is neither. Read the OP again. I made an argument based on standard English Grammar which holds that "manner" is still just a noun. GL and HF are abbreviations but "JoJo is a manner guy" and "Protoss is the most manner race" are abominations. Just because I made a blog to tell "the community" the error of their manner of speaking I do not thereby compel you to change your meme-loving ways. I am just making this for posterity.
You did tell the community the error of it's usage, but you did in fact state that it "must be stopped". Now telling us that you don't compel us to change our meme-loving ways just sounds a bit contradicting.
I actually just say "BM" but I think it's cute to sometimes say "dude you're fucking bad manner" because it makes me laugh so I tend to use a lot of internet slang in person with my friends (who are also gamers, and maaan did I get one of my friends to say "TY" a lot lol) and they just laugh haha.
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On September 16 2010 22:52 Schnake wrote:
I think you should blame the Koreans.
Exactly. I think we started to use manner as an adjective because of the countless koreans saying "be manner pls~" on PGT/iccup. I don't think it's a language evolution as many of you mentioned earlier. And Rekrul's fact may have had well his influence too.
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English as with all languages evolves. In this context it is given that manner=having good manners.
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What the hell? it's not english it's Konglish. If this bothers you then you better travel to Korea and tell off every single person and spray paint graffiti over every single sign with Konglish because they make grammer mistakes when they learn a completely different foreign language.
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In respect to the OP, I must agree that educating people on the correct usage can be useful goal, if only because a few English speakers, native or non-native, may not have previously known.
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I notice the OP used the abbreviation "N.B." which means nota bene. To whom was your post directed, and why did you post it on a public forum if you only intended to address one individual? Although the plural notate bene would also be abbreviated as "N.B.", that is not the understood use of that abbreviation in English. Quam stultum!
Although "manner" in English is a reuse of a loanword originally from English in another language (in this case, Korean), it seems odd that you would decry the use of loanwords that contradict established grammar for native words while making such an error yourself!
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On September 17 2010 00:03 HunterX11 wrote:
I notice the OP used the abbreviation "N.B." which means nota bene. To whom was your post directed, and why did you post it on a public forum if you only intended to address one individual? Although the plural notate bene would also be abbreviated as "N.B.", that is not the understood use of that abbreviation in English. Quam stultum!
Although "manner" in English is a reuse of a loanword originally from English in another language (in this case, Korean), it seems odd that you would decry the use of loanwords that contradict established grammar for native words while making such an error yourself!
He's made more than 1 error, I just find it comical stooping to his level trying to point those out.
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I don't care too much about the use of "manner". A bit more about using win/fail as adjectives. But what irks me most:
Use of should of/would of/could of, which is always wrong and doesn't even make sense
Confusing they're/their/there, its/it's and your/you're without thinking just because they are homophones
It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't almost always native speakers who make those ugly mistakes.
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On September 17 2010 00:16 News wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 00:03 HunterX11 wrote:
I notice the OP used the abbreviation "N.B." which means nota bene. To whom was your post directed, and why did you post it on a public forum if you only intended to address one individual? Although the plural notate bene would also be abbreviated as "N.B.", that is not the understood use of that abbreviation in English. Quam stultum!
Although "manner" in English is a reuse of a loanword originally from English in another language (in this case, Korean), it seems odd that you would decry the use of loanwords that contradict established grammar for native words while making such an error yourself! He's made more than 1 error, I just find it comical stooping to his level trying to point those out.
Yeah; I don't care about loanwords myself and hardly think we need some Académie Anglaise—how any English speaker could is beyond my comprehension, given that native words are a minority of the English lexicon anyway.
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On September 17 2010 00:16 News wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 00:03 HunterX11 wrote:
I notice the OP used the abbreviation "N.B." which means nota bene. To whom was your post directed, and why did you post it on a public forum if you only intended to address one individual? Although the plural notate bene would also be abbreviated as "N.B.", that is not the understood use of that abbreviation in English. Quam stultum!
Although "manner" in English is a reuse of a loanword originally from English in another language (in this case, Korean), it seems odd that you would decry the use of loanwords that contradict established grammar for native words while making such an error yourself! He's made more than 1 error, I just find it comical stooping to his level trying to point those out.
I find it comical that you refer to a correction as "stooping to his level." Effectively, you're being condescending.
In all seriousness, I think the OP is a good attempt at educating people who don't know English. The term is obviously used incorrectly, originating from Koreans in our context, and then misused by foreign posers. However, trying to change what people type on the internet is a fruitless ambition.
Edit: typo
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United States4126 Posts
"Should of" is more like people not knowing how to spell/use apostrophes and just trying to sound the word out.
I consider the use of manner as an adj. more like Starcraft slang than a grammatical error. Much like other words from English slang, it's been used as more than one type of lexical category. If you're going to stick to your guns and disregard the evolution of language for traditionally established grammar you may as well turn a blind eye to sites like www.urbandictionary.com , where people find new uses for words all the time.
Calling this a meme on TL isn't very manner yo.
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saying "manner" can't be used as an adjective is not manner -_-
but KOREA IS MANNER
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Its a phrase. If you know what it means, then it's doing its job.
If someone is saying "this is getting out of hand" they don't mean "i dropped something", they mean that the situation is escalating beyond control.
Which reminds me... amazing flash.
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/529003
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next he's going to tell us Google isnt a verb
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Just 4 words: Who gives a fuck. You create the meanings of the words, so feel free.
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The people should dictate the language, not the other way around.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On September 17 2010 00:42 Nokarot wrote:Its a phrase. If you know what it means, then it's doing its job. If someone is saying "this is getting out of hand" they don't mean "i dropped something", they mean that the situation is escalating beyond control. Which reminds me... amazing flash. http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/529003
It's not a phrase, it's a word: "Manner/Mannered." Just like phrases however, there are correct and incorrect uses. A better example would be like saying "this is getting out to hand," with the intended meaning being it is escalating beyond control.
On September 17 2010 00:43 Gene wrote:
next he's going to tell us Google isnt a verb
It's more a case of the word already existing in the proper form, and then an incorrect form being used. People create new meanings and uses for words all the time, and that's fine. In this case though, the word already has the correct forms and tenses, and people are incorrectly using one form in place of another. It's like deciding that from now on the word "kick" will be past tense as well, when the form "kicked" already exists. "Yesterday I kick the ball," and then when someone points out the mistake you say that language is evolving.
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On September 17 2010 01:01 Daigomi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 00:42 Nokarot wrote:Its a phrase. If you know what it means, then it's doing its job. If someone is saying "this is getting out of hand" they don't mean "i dropped something", they mean that the situation is escalating beyond control. Which reminds me... amazing flash. http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/529003 It's not a phrase, it's a word: "Manner/Mannered." Just like phrases however, there are correct and incorrect uses. A better example would be like saying "this is getting out to hand," with the intended meaning being it is escalating beyond control. Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 00:43 Gene wrote:
next he's going to tell us Google isnt a verb It's more a case of the word already existing in the proper form, and then an incorrect form being used. People create new meanings and uses for words all the time, and that's fine. In this case though, the word already has the correct forms and tenses, and people are incorrectly using one form in place of another. It's like deciding that from now on the word "kick" will be past tense as well, when the form "kicked" already exists. "Yesterday I kick the ball," and then when someone points out the mistake you say that language is evolving.
So you don't think using words in new ways constitutes language change?
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"thusly" isn't a real word, OP why are you so terrible at english? let me go whine about how annoying you are.
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On September 17 2010 01:01 Daigomi wrote:
It's more a case of the word already existing in the proper form, and then an incorrect form being used. People create new meanings and uses for words all the time, and that's fine. In this case though, the word already has the correct forms and tenses, and people are incorrectly using one form in place of another. It's like deciding that from now on the word "kick" will be past tense as well, when the form "kicked" already exists. "Yesterday I kick the ball," and then when someone points out the mistake you say that language is evolving.
Fifty years ago, "access" was only a noun. It's pretty common for denominative verbs to develop over time, although I'm not sure if people use "manner" as a verb (manner, yo).
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On September 17 2010 00:43 Gene wrote:
next he's going to tell us Google isnt a verb
Best post of the thread :D
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I'm going to manner pylon you until you manner up and start using proper manners.
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On September 17 2010 01:01 Daigomi wrote:
It's more a case of the word already existing in the proper form, and then an incorrect form being used. People create new meanings and uses for words all the time, and that's fine. In this case though, the word already has the correct forms and tenses, and people are incorrectly using one form in place of another. It's like deciding that from now on the word "kick" will be past tense as well, when the form "kicked" already exists. "Yesterday I kick the ball," and then when someone points out the mistake you say that language is evolving.
Off-topic, but what are your thoughts about the common usage of "is" instead of the plural "are". Now, I don't care too much about English "evolution" but that bothers me because it sounds retarded.
On September 17 2010 00:49 Metalwing wrote:
Just 4 words: Who gives a fuck.
I don't know, but I'll take two.
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On September 17 2010 01:01 Daigomi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 00:42 Nokarot wrote:Its a phrase. If you know what it means, then it's doing its job. If someone is saying "this is getting out of hand" they don't mean "i dropped something", they mean that the situation is escalating beyond control. Which reminds me... amazing flash. http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/529003 Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 00:43 Gene wrote:
next he's going to tell us Google isnt a verb It's more a case of the word already existing in the proper form, and then an incorrect form being used. People create new meanings and uses for words all the time, and that's fine. In this case though, the word already has the correct forms and tenses, and people are incorrectly using one form in place of another. It's like deciding that from now on the word "kick" will be past tense as well, when the form "kicked" already exists. "Yesterday I kick the ball," and then when someone points out the mistake you say that language is evolving.
People say "snuck" even though the word "sneaked" already exists, but only really anal-retentive people get worked up over it.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On September 17 2010 01:06 mucker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 01:01 Daigomi wrote:On September 17 2010 00:42 Nokarot wrote:Its a phrase. If you know what it means, then it's doing its job. If someone is saying "this is getting out of hand" they don't mean "i dropped something", they mean that the situation is escalating beyond control. Which reminds me... amazing flash. http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/529003 It's not a phrase, it's a word: "Manner/Mannered." Just like phrases however, there are correct and incorrect uses. A better example would be like saying "this is getting out to hand," with the intended meaning being it is escalating beyond control. On September 17 2010 00:43 Gene wrote:
next he's going to tell us Google isnt a verb It's more a case of the word already existing in the proper form, and then an incorrect form being used. People create new meanings and uses for words all the time, and that's fine. In this case though, the word already has the correct forms and tenses, and people are incorrectly using one form in place of another. It's like deciding that from now on the word "kick" will be past tense as well, when the form "kicked" already exists. "Yesterday I kick the ball," and then when someone points out the mistake you say that language is evolving. So you don't think using words in new ways constitutes language change?
I'm not quite sure what you are asking. If you are referring to my last sentence, then it is language change of course, but if you look at my previous comment I pointed out that not all language change is good change. It's just difficult to believe that people would actively want to change one completely reasonable word "mannered" to one that's outside of the normal rules of grammar "manner" for no reason. That's why I dislike this change, because it changes the rules of grammar (to directly contradict the previous rules of grammar regarding the word) for no benefit, while increasing the complexity. It really is like deciding that the past tense word "kicked" will now be "kick" for no reason, even though using kick as past tense is clearly incorrect according to the current rules of grammar. It can be done, but when the word already has a past tense form that is commonly used ("kicked"), why change it to make it more complex?
On September 17 2010 01:16 azndsh wrote:
"thusly" isn't a real word, OP why are you so terrible at english? let me go whine about how annoying you are.
Thusly is a word, it's just not used very commonly. It means therefore. Also, what does the OP's English have to do with the validity of his argument? It's so annoying, whenever anyone makes a post about anything grammatical, the whole forum thinks the easiest way to refute the argument is by finding other mistakes in the post, no matter how miniscule. He makes a valid point, so what's the problem? If you disagree with it, how about articulating your reasons for disagreeing?
On September 17 2010 01:17 hazelynut wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 01:01 Daigomi wrote:
It's more a case of the word already existing in the proper form, and then an incorrect form being used. People create new meanings and uses for words all the time, and that's fine. In this case though, the word already has the correct forms and tenses, and people are incorrectly using one form in place of another. It's like deciding that from now on the word "kick" will be past tense as well, when the form "kicked" already exists. "Yesterday I kick the ball," and then when someone points out the mistake you say that language is evolving. Fifty years ago, "access" was only a noun. It's pretty common for denominative verbs to develop over time, although I'm not sure if people use "manner" as a verb (manner, yo).
That's the point. I have no problem with denominative verbs developing, unless the word already has a verb form. That's, for example, why I have no problem with the word manner as a verb, such as "manner up." There is no current verb for the word "manner" that means becoming more mannered, so creating one is fine. However, if the word "mannerized", for example, already existed and it was a verb meaning to become more well mannered, then I would have complained with that usage. Even that wouldn't be so much a problem though, and I'll touch on why now:
On September 17 2010 01:35 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 01:01 Daigomi wrote:On September 17 2010 00:42 Nokarot wrote:Its a phrase. If you know what it means, then it's doing its job. If someone is saying "this is getting out of hand" they don't mean "i dropped something", they mean that the situation is escalating beyond control. Which reminds me... amazing flash. http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/529003 On September 17 2010 00:43 Gene wrote:
next he's going to tell us Google isnt a verb It's more a case of the word already existing in the proper form, and then an incorrect form being used. People create new meanings and uses for words all the time, and that's fine. In this case though, the word already has the correct forms and tenses, and people are incorrectly using one form in place of another. It's like deciding that from now on the word "kick" will be past tense as well, when the form "kicked" already exists. "Yesterday I kick the ball," and then when someone points out the mistake you say that language is evolving. People say "snuck" even though the word "sneaked" already exists, but only really anal-retentive people get worked up over it.
It's a good point, but both take the grammatically correct forms and neither complexifies the language. Manner, on the other hand, contradicts existing grammar rules while taking on an unusual word form.
On September 17 2010 01:27 Durak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 01:01 Daigomi wrote:
It's more a case of the word already existing in the proper form, and then an incorrect form being used. People create new meanings and uses for words all the time, and that's fine. In this case though, the word already has the correct forms and tenses, and people are incorrectly using one form in place of another. It's like deciding that from now on the word "kick" will be past tense as well, when the form "kicked" already exists. "Yesterday I kick the ball," and then when someone points out the mistake you say that language is evolving. Off-topic, but what are your thoughts about the common usage of "is" instead of the plural "are". Now, I don't care too much about English "evolution" but that bothers me because it sounds retarded.
I hope people don't do that on purpose? I occasionally make that mistake, simply because it's not always clear whether something is singular or plural: "Eggs and bacon is my favourite meal" vs "Eggs and bacon are wonderful together". As long as people don't knowingly do it it's fine I guess.
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South Africa4316 Posts
Double post, sorry 
On September 17 2010 01:25 Xyik wrote:
I'm going to manner pylon you until you manner up and start using proper manners.
Ironically, not a single incorrect use of the word manner in that sentence :p
On September 17 2010 01:49 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 21:52 chrisSquire wrote:
N.B.
The word itself does not carry any qualities of its own (e.g. well mannered or bad mannered).
The phrase "mind your manners" evokes the quality of politeness. This phrase works perfectly fine as a threat. If I'm cleaning a plate and I miss a spot, and then someone tells me to clean the spot, and I say "I could care less" it means that I could not be washing the plate at all. It isn't "I could care less about that spot" because I already don't care about that spot. It is "I could care less about washing this plate" so it works as a threat... it is kinda just saying "be satisfied with my current level of care because if you criticize me about it then I won't be willing to care at all"
The problem is that the phrase depends on the listener knowing what you omitted, and the typical form is that you "couldn't care less" about whatever they are saying. "You are fat" "I couldn't care less [about being fat]." Because you do not complete the sentence, people will assume you use this form, and because of that "I could care less" doesn't work.
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8748 Posts
On September 16 2010 21:52 chrisSquire wrote:
N.B.
The word itself does not carry any qualities of its own (e.g. well mannered or bad mannered).
The phrase "mind your manners" evokes the quality of politeness.
On September 16 2010 22:42 Purind wrote:
Abolish "I could care less."
This phrase works perfectly fine as a threat.
If I'm cleaning a plate and I miss a spot, and then someone tells me to clean the spot, and I say "I could care less" it means that I could not be washing the plate at all. It isn't "I could care less about that spot" because I already don't care about that spot. It is "I could care less about washing this plate" so it works as a threat... it is kinda just saying "be satisfied with my current level of care because if you criticize me about it then I won't be willing to care at all"
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+1 to NonY
The issue is that many people are using I could care less the same way they use I couldn't care less.
Not to sound racist by saying this, but many black people also say things such as:
Gal, you ain't going nowhere!
I hope English doesn't become like Chinese!
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Wow this exploded into quite the educational thread with some good comedy scattered throughout. nice comic strip whoever did that LOL. 
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On September 17 2010 01:49 Liquid`Tyler wrote:This phrase works perfectly fine as a threat. If I'm cleaning a plate and I miss a spot, and then someone tells me to clean the spot, and I say "I could care less" it means that I could not be washing the plate at all. It isn't "I could care less about that spot" because I already don't care about that spot. It is "I could care less about washing this plate" so it works as a threat... it is kinda just saying "be satisfied with my current level of care because if you criticize me about it then I won't be willing to care at all"
I don't think he means to remove the phrase from everyone's vocabulary entirely, but rather abolish the mistake that people make, where they say "I could care less" when they really mean "I couldn't care less". It's a mistake that happens A LOT; people want to convey the idea that "hey I care so little about X that it's literally impossible for me to care any less", but they say "I could care less", which doesn't make sense. You are essentially admitting "yeah I guess I still care a little about X", which is the opposite of what you wanted to convey.
It's almost like if people suddenly started making the mistake of saying "I give a shit!" instead of saying "I don't give a shit!" wouldn't make much sense 
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On September 16 2010 22:43 chrisSquire wrote:.
Noun + Preposition hanger on
manner up
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Language evolves on it's own, you can't use rules to constrain it.
On September 16 2010 22:42 Purind wrote:
Abolish "I could care less."
Try correcting someone who uses that to mean "I couldn't care less". They'll think, and often say, "I could care less." And the worst part is that you'll know exactly what they mean.
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On September 16 2010 22:03 Yizuo wrote:
I strongly agree with the OP, the way "manner" is used nowadays sound so stupid...
Who cares? We are speaking a language, and languages change. In 1998 if you told someone to "Google" something, they wouldn't have a clue as to what your talking about. Manner has taken on a new meaning, at least for most Starcraft players. Does it matter that it's not the same meaning as "manner" 10 years ago? Not at all, because when you say it, people know what you mean.
Edit: I just looked through other posts and noticed this point has already been said a bunch of times. Feel free to ignore my post.
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everyone knows that manner is a noun. it's just nerd slang.
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heres the thing. Koreans use manner in everday speech. Not the korean translation of manner, but the hanguelazation of manner. But most of them do not have comprehensive knowledge of english grammar. So in battlenet, they would say "manner please" instead of "please watch your manners" or "lets have a friendly game in which we do not talk shit and respect each other."
After a while it caught on and bacame a sc lingo. Seriously who uses manner up or something other than players in this community?
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On September 17 2010 01:48 Daigomi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 01:06 mucker wrote:On September 17 2010 01:01 Daigomi wrote:On September 17 2010 00:42 Nokarot wrote:Its a phrase. If you know what it means, then it's doing its job. If someone is saying "this is getting out of hand" they don't mean "i dropped something", they mean that the situation is escalating beyond control. Which reminds me... amazing flash. http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/529003 It's not a phrase, it's a word: "Manner/Mannered." Just like phrases however, there are correct and incorrect uses. A better example would be like saying "this is getting out to hand," with the intended meaning being it is escalating beyond control. On September 17 2010 00:43 Gene wrote:
next he's going to tell us Google isnt a verb It's more a case of the word already existing in the proper form, and then an incorrect form being used. People create new meanings and uses for words all the time, and that's fine. In this case though, the word already has the correct forms and tenses, and people are incorrectly using one form in place of another. It's like deciding that from now on the word "kick" will be past tense as well, when the form "kicked" already exists. "Yesterday I kick the ball," and then when someone points out the mistake you say that language is evolving. So you don't think using words in new ways constitutes language change? I'm not quite sure what you are asking. If you are referring to my last sentence, then it is language change of course, but if you look at my previous comment I pointed out that not all language change is good change. It's just difficult to believe that people would actively want to change one completely reasonable word "mannered" to one that's outside of the normal rules of grammar "manner" for no reason. That's why I dislike this change, because it changes the rules of grammar (to directly contradict the previous rules of grammar regarding the word) for no benefit, while increasing the complexity. It really is like deciding that the past tense word "kicked" will now be "kick" for no reason, even though using kick as past tense is clearly incorrect according to the current rules of grammar. It can be done, but when the word already has a past tense form that is commonly used ("kicked"), why change it to make it more complex? .
So language change has to be "good change"? You know that languages can undergo incredibly drastic changes with regards to syntax and morphology, right? What do you think those changes look like while they are happening? Do you think language change happens with no overlap between old and new? Your kick example doesn't hold up anyways. That is a tense marking on a verb, conveying information and reducing ambiguity. When you're using "mannered" as an adjective it isn't strictly past tense, as in the sentence Nony is such a manner player. Isn't dropping the -ed a reduction in complexity there? What additional necessary information does the -ed contain in Nony is such a mannered player? That doesn't even sound right to me, needs well before mannered. If Nony is such a well mannered player can be reduced to Nony is such a manner player with no loss of meaning and no introduction of ambiguity is that not a "good change"?
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On September 16 2010 22:12 Carnac wrote:
language evolves you know? that's really all that needs to be said.
There's actually a specific language term that's used for when a word takes on a new meaning after being used enough incorrectly, but damned if I've been able to remember what that term is.
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why would you even want to get rid of gamer slang? its existence excites me. maybe they do it because writing good mannered takes longer. just like when they own someone they do not nessasary have possesion of them. i think since we all know what they mean its more fun to have our own lingo. im not writing a speech im just spittin facts at my home boys. not actually spitting just talking and not actually boys from my home just my friends but you know what i mean. Im not grammatically stupid i just dont bother. im not even correcting the missing ' or clearly underlined spelling mistakes in this post cause who gives a fuk.
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thx for the manner blog about manner , im not going to use manner for everything anymore , because after all , i am realy manner
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South Africa4316 Posts
On September 17 2010 02:47 mucker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 01:48 Daigomi wrote:On September 17 2010 01:06 mucker wrote:On September 17 2010 01:01 Daigomi wrote:On September 17 2010 00:42 Nokarot wrote:Its a phrase. If you know what it means, then it's doing its job. If someone is saying "this is getting out of hand" they don't mean "i dropped something", they mean that the situation is escalating beyond control. Which reminds me... amazing flash. http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/529003 It's not a phrase, it's a word: "Manner/Mannered." Just like phrases however, there are correct and incorrect uses. A better example would be like saying "this is getting out to hand," with the intended meaning being it is escalating beyond control. On September 17 2010 00:43 Gene wrote:
next he's going to tell us Google isnt a verb It's more a case of the word already existing in the proper form, and then an incorrect form being used. People create new meanings and uses for words all the time, and that's fine. In this case though, the word already has the correct forms and tenses, and people are incorrectly using one form in place of another. It's like deciding that from now on the word "kick" will be past tense as well, when the form "kicked" already exists. "Yesterday I kick the ball," and then when someone points out the mistake you say that language is evolving. So you don't think using words in new ways constitutes language change? I'm not quite sure what you are asking. If you are referring to my last sentence, then it is language change of course, but if you look at my previous comment I pointed out that not all language change is good change. It's just difficult to believe that people would actively want to change one completely reasonable word "mannered" to one that's outside of the normal rules of grammar "manner" for no reason. That's why I dislike this change, because it changes the rules of grammar (to directly contradict the previous rules of grammar regarding the word) for no benefit, while increasing the complexity. It really is like deciding that the past tense word "kicked" will now be "kick" for no reason, even though using kick as past tense is clearly incorrect according to the current rules of grammar. It can be done, but when the word already has a past tense form that is commonly used ("kicked"), why change it to make it more complex? . So language change has to be "good change"? You know that languages can undergo incredibly drastic changes with regards to syntax and morphology, right? What do you think those changes look like while they are happening? Do you think language change happens with no overlap between old and new? Your kick example doesn't hold up anyways. That is a tense marking on a verb, conveying information and reducing ambiguity. When you're using "mannered" as an adjective it isn't strictly past tense, as in the sentence Nony is such a manner player. Isn't dropping the -ed a reduction in complexity there? What additional necessary information does the -ed contain in Nony is such a mannered player? That doesn't even sound right to me, needs well before mannered. If Nony is such a well mannered player can be reduced to Nony is such a manner player with no loss of meaning and no introduction of ambiguity is that not a "good change"?
Language change doesn't have to be good change (although obviously it's better if changes in language simplify the language), but if we're actively choosing to change the language, then it's retarded to make the language more complex for no actual gain.
Not quite sure what your point is with sentences 2-4, and how it relates to the current situation. It seems like you are arguing for language evolution as a whole, which isn't really relevant here. We're not making an argument against some large scale trend which leads to overlap, this is a single case where the incorrect word was actively chosen. Rather than leading to a new set of rules which simplify language, this change will lead to an exception that needs to be made.
The kick example didn't have to do with the specific morphology, it had to do with the fact that a form of the word already exists, and that an incorrect form of the word is then used to replace the correct form. So, with regards to my example, the ed doesn't indicate tense, but it is part of a specific language rule which governs that situation: "Nony is such an educated/prepared/disciplined/mannered player." Someone specialising in linguistics can point out exactly what the rule is. The reason this is not a good is because, as I mentioned earlier, this is not some large scale simplification of the language but rather an exception completely unrelated to the current state of the language.
Notice that I do not mind the change from well mannered to mannered (I mention this in my first post on the topic). Omission is fine if the omission is generally understood. The problem is with the change in the grammar of this specific word, when established grammar rules for this class of word (and this word itself) already exists.
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I'm fairly sure that nearly everyone who uses the word "manner" in this slang sense understands it as slang, so there's no need for a blog to educate them, but since you apparently care for things like this, you might like to know that you were wrong about this part:On September 16 2010 21:52 chrisSquire wrote:
Manner simply refers to "a way of doing something".
"The manner in which he controls his Colossus is far superior to all others."
By qualifying with "well" or "bad" we can transform the noun "manner" into a descriptive adjective" thusly:
"The well-mannered host made sure to abide each and everyone of his guests' wishes.
N.B.
The word itself does not carry any qualities of its own (e.g. well mannered or bad mannered).
Even in a sentence such as "He is a mannered player" (where the word is used correctly in a grammatical sense) you still have not actually told us anything about his manner but just that he has a "way of doing things" which ought to be quite obvious in the first place.
The Oxford English Dictionary says:
mannered, adj.
2. Having good manners; well-behaved, polite; refined, gracious, sophisticated. Now chiefly regional. If you think about phrases like, "Where are your manners?", you see that "manners" can be used in the sense of "good manners". That's not in the least unusual for English, either: for another example, think of the word "principled" or the phrase "a man of principles".
edit: just noticed that Nony already made this point on the previous page. Oh well, at least I added chapter and verse.
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i agree completely with the OP. it drives me nuts how the term manner is thrown around in ways that don't make sense
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This just in. Language changes in new and exciting ways due to cultural influences.
More news at eleven!
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On September 17 2010 03:08 Daigomi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 02:47 mucker wrote:On September 17 2010 01:48 Daigomi wrote:On September 17 2010 01:06 mucker wrote:On September 17 2010 01:01 Daigomi wrote:On September 17 2010 00:42 Nokarot wrote:Its a phrase. If you know what it means, then it's doing its job. If someone is saying "this is getting out of hand" they don't mean "i dropped something", they mean that the situation is escalating beyond control. Which reminds me... amazing flash. http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/529003 It's not a phrase, it's a word: "Manner/Mannered." Just like phrases however, there are correct and incorrect uses. A better example would be like saying "this is getting out to hand," with the intended meaning being it is escalating beyond control. On September 17 2010 00:43 Gene wrote:
next he's going to tell us Google isnt a verb It's more a case of the word already existing in the proper form, and then an incorrect form being used. People create new meanings and uses for words all the time, and that's fine. In this case though, the word already has the correct forms and tenses, and people are incorrectly using one form in place of another. It's like deciding that from now on the word "kick" will be past tense as well, when the form "kicked" already exists. "Yesterday I kick the ball," and then when someone points out the mistake you say that language is evolving. So you don't think using words in new ways constitutes language change? I'm not quite sure what you are asking. If you are referring to my last sentence, then it is language change of course, but if you look at my previous comment I pointed out that not all language change is good change. It's just difficult to believe that people would actively want to change one completely reasonable word "mannered" to one that's outside of the normal rules of grammar "manner" for no reason. That's why I dislike this change, because it changes the rules of grammar (to directly contradict the previous rules of grammar regarding the word) for no benefit, while increasing the complexity. It really is like deciding that the past tense word "kicked" will now be "kick" for no reason, even though using kick as past tense is clearly incorrect according to the current rules of grammar. It can be done, but when the word already has a past tense form that is commonly used ("kicked"), why change it to make it more complex? . So language change has to be "good change"? You know that languages can undergo incredibly drastic changes with regards to syntax and morphology, right? What do you think those changes look like while they are happening? Do you think language change happens with no overlap between old and new? Your kick example doesn't hold up anyways. That is a tense marking on a verb, conveying information and reducing ambiguity. When you're using "mannered" as an adjective it isn't strictly past tense, as in the sentence Nony is such a manner player. Isn't dropping the -ed a reduction in complexity there? What additional necessary information does the -ed contain in Nony is such a mannered player? That doesn't even sound right to me, needs well before mannered. If Nony is such a well mannered player can be reduced to Nony is such a manner player with no loss of meaning and no introduction of ambiguity is that not a "good change"? Language change doesn't have to be good change (although obviously it's better if changes in language simplify the language), but if we're actively choosing to change the language, then it's retarded to make the language more complex for no actual gain. Not quite sure what your point is with sentences 2-4, and how it relates to the current situation. It seems like you are arguing for language evolution as a whole, which isn't really relevant here. We're not making an argument against some large scale trend which leads to overlap, this is a single case where the incorrect word was actively chosen. Rather than leading to a new set of rules which simplify language, this change will lead to an exception that needs to be made. The kick example didn't have to do with the specific morphology, it had to do with the fact that a form of the word already exists, and that an incorrect form of the word is then used to replace the correct form. So, with regards to my example, the ed doesn't indicate tense, but it is part of a specific language rule which governs that situation: "Nony is such an educated/prepared/disciplined/mannered player." Someone specialising in linguistics can point out exactly what the rule is. The reason this is not a good is because, as I mentioned earlier, this is not some large scale simplification of the language but rather an exception completely unrelated to the current state of the language. Notice that I do not mind the change from well mannered to mannered (I mention this in my first post on the topic). Omission is fine if the omission is generally understood. The problem is with the change in the grammar of this specific word, when established grammar rules for this class of word (and this word itself) already exists.
The point of those sentences 2-4 were to see if you actually understand the mechanics of language change, which clearly you do not. Entire syntactic or morphological rules do not change all at once. The usage of single words and phrases will change and it becomes a feedback loop with additional words in that class or syntactic structure undergoing the change until it has been reinforced to point where it becomes the default. Often times words will change even if it creates a redundant form, creates ambiguities or (apparently) unnecessary complexity. It starts with exceptions, in small communities or isolated groups. The usage of manner in gamer speak is exactly what language change looks like.
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People freak out when "metagame" is used incorrectly but incorrect usage of "manner" is a sign of evolving languages?
Personally I agree with the view that we don't need to be particularly strict about word definitions, of course, I also extend this to "metagame" and so find that argument rather unreasonable as well.
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It's slang that's developed within gaming. Get over it.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On September 17 2010 03:43 mucker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 03:08 Daigomi wrote:On September 17 2010 02:47 mucker wrote:On September 17 2010 01:48 Daigomi wrote:On September 17 2010 01:06 mucker wrote:On September 17 2010 01:01 Daigomi wrote:On September 17 2010 00:42 Nokarot wrote:Its a phrase. If you know what it means, then it's doing its job. If someone is saying "this is getting out of hand" they don't mean "i dropped something", they mean that the situation is escalating beyond control. Which reminds me... amazing flash. http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/529003 It's not a phrase, it's a word: "Manner/Mannered." Just like phrases however, there are correct and incorrect uses. A better example would be like saying "this is getting out to hand," with the intended meaning being it is escalating beyond control. On September 17 2010 00:43 Gene wrote:
next he's going to tell us Google isnt a verb It's more a case of the word already existing in the proper form, and then an incorrect form being used. People create new meanings and uses for words all the time, and that's fine. In this case though, the word already has the correct forms and tenses, and people are incorrectly using one form in place of another. It's like deciding that from now on the word "kick" will be past tense as well, when the form "kicked" already exists. "Yesterday I kick the ball," and then when someone points out the mistake you say that language is evolving. So you don't think using words in new ways constitutes language change? I'm not quite sure what you are asking. If you are referring to my last sentence, then it is language change of course, but if you look at my previous comment I pointed out that not all language change is good change. It's just difficult to believe that people would actively want to change one completely reasonable word "mannered" to one that's outside of the normal rules of grammar "manner" for no reason. That's why I dislike this change, because it changes the rules of grammar (to directly contradict the previous rules of grammar regarding the word) for no benefit, while increasing the complexity. It really is like deciding that the past tense word "kicked" will now be "kick" for no reason, even though using kick as past tense is clearly incorrect according to the current rules of grammar. It can be done, but when the word already has a past tense form that is commonly used ("kicked"), why change it to make it more complex? . So language change has to be "good change"? You know that languages can undergo incredibly drastic changes with regards to syntax and morphology, right? What do you think those changes look like while they are happening? Do you think language change happens with no overlap between old and new? Your kick example doesn't hold up anyways. That is a tense marking on a verb, conveying information and reducing ambiguity. When you're using "mannered" as an adjective it isn't strictly past tense, as in the sentence Nony is such a manner player. Isn't dropping the -ed a reduction in complexity there? What additional necessary information does the -ed contain in Nony is such a mannered player? That doesn't even sound right to me, needs well before mannered. If Nony is such a well mannered player can be reduced to Nony is such a manner player with no loss of meaning and no introduction of ambiguity is that not a "good change"? Language change doesn't have to be good change (although obviously it's better if changes in language simplify the language), but if we're actively choosing to change the language, then it's retarded to make the language more complex for no actual gain. Not quite sure what your point is with sentences 2-4, and how it relates to the current situation. It seems like you are arguing for language evolution as a whole, which isn't really relevant here. We're not making an argument against some large scale trend which leads to overlap, this is a single case where the incorrect word was actively chosen. Rather than leading to a new set of rules which simplify language, this change will lead to an exception that needs to be made. The kick example didn't have to do with the specific morphology, it had to do with the fact that a form of the word already exists, and that an incorrect form of the word is then used to replace the correct form. So, with regards to my example, the ed doesn't indicate tense, but it is part of a specific language rule which governs that situation: "Nony is such an educated/prepared/disciplined/mannered player." Someone specialising in linguistics can point out exactly what the rule is. The reason this is not a good is because, as I mentioned earlier, this is not some large scale simplification of the language but rather an exception completely unrelated to the current state of the language. Notice that I do not mind the change from well mannered to mannered (I mention this in my first post on the topic). Omission is fine if the omission is generally understood. The problem is with the change in the grammar of this specific word, when established grammar rules for this class of word (and this word itself) already exists. The point of those sentences 2-4 were to see if you actually understand the mechanics of language change, which clearly you do not. Entire syntactic or morphological rules do not change all at once. The usage of single words and phrases will change and it becomes a feedback loop with additional words in that class or syntactic structure undergoing the change until it has been reinforced to point where it becomes the default. Often times words will change even if it creates a redundant form, creates ambiguities or (apparently) unnecessary complexity. It starts with exceptions, in small communities or isolated groups. The usage of manner in gamer speak is exactly what language change looks like.
It's not that I don't understand how language changes. I just find the idea that the incorrect use of "manner" on a SC forum will lead to large scale syntactic and morphological changes absurd and didn't really consider it. Is that what you are arguing? That if we start using "manner" here it is more likely to lead to a large scale change than it is to becoming an exception? To take this further, are you arguing that we should all be consciously using incorrect forms of words which complexify the language at the time because they might lead to large scale simplifications later? Because that is the situation here.
Even if you were to assume that this change could lead to large scale changes. There is no way you could promote making conscious changes like these when you consider firstly how minute the chance of it leading to a substantive change is, and secondly the uncontrolled nature of the change. Even if it leads to a change, the chance that it's a simplifying change is not that great. All in all, the chance that this change will improve the language is tiny compared to the immediate effects of it being wrong right now, and the long term chance that it simply becomes a complex exception.
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you can't take this away from us!
manner pylons!
manner players!
manner plays!
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So, you are saying the community completely raped the meaning of the word?
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Better question: Who gives a shit?
QQ more dude
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Why do people act as if language is set in stone -_-?
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On September 17 2010 04:22 Saturnize wrote:
Why do people act as if language is set in stone -_-?
This is basically the heart of the issue.
There's two schools of thought: either you believe that there is an unwavering standard of how language should be used (prescriptive grammarian) or you believe that this standard is set by how language is actually used (descriptive grammarian). You can't point to one of these and say "that's the right way", and there's no use arguing it because there are pros and cons of both views.
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Bacesue we as hamnus hvae the tncendey to foamlzrie tinhgs to a pniot werhe erveobydy has to flloow a gevin satdrand. Tihs is psoilbsy due to the need of hvanig acrutcae, picerse ifnramioton (think eninengrieg), or as a maens to vliatade the sohcol sesytm.
Heovwer, I sppourt crrecot gramamr to aiovd tihs secainro.
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On September 17 2010 04:26 FiBsTeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 04:22 Saturnize wrote:
Why do people act as if language is set in stone -_-? This is basically the heart of the issue. There's two schools of thought: either you believe that there is an unwavering standard of how language should be used (prescriptive grammarian) or you believe that this standard is set by how language is actually used (descriptive grammarian). You can't point to one of these and say "that's the right way", and there's no use arguing it because there are pros and cons of both views.
There are two prevailing views on continents. One says that they always looked the way they do now and the other says "that the continents had once formed a single landmass before breaking apart and drifting to their present locations". There are pros and cons to both views: one of them is considerably simpler and has the pedigree of thousands of years of tradition, while the other is supported by evidence and explains a number of other observations. You can't just point to one of them and say "that's the right way".
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Although silly to misuse words like this, this particular word has taken on a new meaning which is referred to exclusively when it's used as another part of speach. The alternative, to say that someone is "well-mannered" or "has good manners" sort of sounds like you're a stereotypical old lady talking about someone's gentlemenliness, as opposed to one's good sportsmanship or e-ettiquete, which i think most people agree sounds rather lame. The ungrammatical mutation of the word indicates more clearly that it's some accepted form of internet speak with which you should already be familiar, thus allowing people to feel cooler when talking about someone's manners, even to a less savvy audience.
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whoa manner~! This thread be very gm.
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Ok, let's all stop using colloquialisms forever!
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grammar pylon!
Message board = informal writing setting.(See I just used an equal sign!) Clarity and readability is more important than form. We can use whatever variations, especially one as commonly known and 'harmless' as manner. (ie it is intuitive and obvious, and not totally ugly.. for example "leet speak" is commonly known, but ugly so I would discourage using it more hehe)
I actually prefer this way of English. If you hear a new term, you often can figure out the meaning by context and logic. That is the only way shakespeare plays will make any sense lol.
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On September 16 2010 22:18 LuckyFool wrote:
If language never evolved we'd all be speaking some sort of ancient prehistoric grunting language from the early years of B.C.E.
that being said I wouldn't want to have to learn english through the teamliquid forums. (news articles are well written but the overall TL poster is quite a grammatical noob or does not take the time/effort to post in good english, I know I don't)
oh and it's quite fun when you meetup with TL users or other people from the community to use these words in these ways. :D
This. Language is all about change... do you think all the words in the English language were invented at once?
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I actually agree with the OP. I don't really mind THAT much, but it is a bit annoying. I know that most of the TL community disagrees... oh well, it's just preference.
I don't really feel that using words incorrectly is a form of evolution. In fact, I think it's the opposite...but once again that's just my opinion. I also don't claim that my grammar is perfect either, in fact it's far from it. I, for one, can't stand that things like "bling bling" are being added as a normal part of the language. Like I said, I don't think it's "evolving". Just my thoughts -- to each his own.
edit: I am also guilty of using phrases like "manner pylon" I guess I'm just a hypocrite.
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So when i do a manner pylon i should call it a pylon with manner?
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It's community slang, forges group identity, is cool.
Not like the abuse of the prefix meta. Now that drives me insane.
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On September 17 2010 08:41 Scorch wrote:You know what manner is? + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://www.oesterreichmarkt.de/i/mannerschnitten.jpg) A classic Austrian candy.
my god those are tasty. THE ANTZ --- you are like the nth kid to say "manner up". kudos to your hive brain.
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When people misspell lose as loose it really irks me more than this manner business. They're completely different words!
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this blog is not very manner
this term has been used in so many contexts since early days of BW. throwing around the word "manner" in awkward contexts was always an inside joke for me
i like it
manner hatch, manner pylon etc etc
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EPT
