• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 02:43
CET 07:43
KST 15:43
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8
Community News
2026 KongFu Cup Announcement4BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled12Blizzard Classic Cup - Tastosis announced as captains15Weekly Cups (March 2-8): ByuN overcomes PvT block4GSL CK - New online series19
StarCraft 2
General
GSL CK - New online series BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled Blizzard Classic Cup - Tastosis announced as captains BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT
Tourneys
2026 KongFu Cup Announcement RSL Season 4 announced for March-April PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament [GSL CK] Team Maru vs. Team herO
Strategy
Custom Maps
Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026] Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 517 Distant Threat The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 516 Specter of Death Mutation # 515 Together Forever
Brood War
General
ASL21 General Discussion BSL 22 Map Contest — Submissions OPEN to March 10 BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Are you ready for ASL 21? Hype VIDEO Gypsy to Korea
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL22] Open Qualifiers & Ladder Tours IPSL Spring 2026 is here! ASL Season 21 Qualifiers March 7-8
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Fighting Spirit mining rates Zealot bombing is no longer popular?
Other Games
General Games
Dawn of War IV Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread PC Games Sales Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Five o'clock TL Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Mexico's Drug War Russo-Ukrainian War Thread NASA and the Private Sector
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread General nutrition recommendations Cricket [SPORT] TL MMA Pick'em Pool 2013
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Money Laundering In Video Ga…
TrAiDoS
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3233 users

Math Puzzle #3

Blogs > mieda
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-12 22:32:52
September 10 2010 20:12 GMT
#1
Let f,g be polynomials with rational coefficients. Suppose f(Q) = g(Q) (i.e. the sets of values of f and g on the rationals are the same). Then f(x) = g(ax + b) for some rational constants a,b.

Remark. It generalizes to number fields with real embeddings.

Note that the converse is trivial.

Solution

The idea is that (mod the full details) there's a fixed discrete subgroup L of Q such that for any integer x, the rational solutions, viewed in y, of g(y) = f(x) are all in L. To extract the behavior of y as x varies, and compare the coefficients at the same time, i.e. the growth rates, you can consider expressions of the form g(y') - g(y) = f(x+1) - f(x) where y' is the corresponding rational number such that g(y') = f(x+1). By mean value theorem (don't quite need this, since f,g are polynomials so one can potentially do all the computations by algebra) the expression extracts out y' - y in terms of f'(x) and g'(y) roughly, and this gives a good comparison of y as x varies. This is the idea, and I do some computations to show that this works.

Also, simple valuation calculations (plug in this, plug in that rational number, compare the p-adic valuations) don't really seem to get anywhere, as I give plenty of counter examples and point out the problems to the claims of one of the posters below.

*
Assault_1
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1950 Posts
September 10 2010 20:34 GMT
#2
so whats the question?
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 20:43 GMT
#3
On September 11 2010 05:34 Assault_1 wrote:
so whats the question?


Proving it.
Piege
Profile Joined October 2009
United Kingdom128 Posts
September 10 2010 20:52 GMT
#4
Would a non-math major/non-math enthusiast be able to solve this?
Never_V_ -> Fin
category
Profile Joined July 2009
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 20:53 GMT
#5
the sets f(Q) and g(Q) are not counting multiplicity right?
category
Profile Joined July 2009
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 20:54 GMT
#6
On September 11 2010 05:52 Piege wrote:
Would a non-math major/non-math enthusiast be able to solve this?


I don't know the solution yet but I suspect the answer to your question is no.
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 20:56:54
September 10 2010 20:55 GMT
#7
On September 11 2010 05:53 category wrote:
the sets f(Q) and g(Q) are not counting multiplicity right?


They're just sets, not really any structures on them (for ex. ramifications). For example for the functio f(x) = x^2 the set f(Q) is just the set of all squares of rational numbers. We don't care that f(x) = 0 ramifies (and elsewhere unramifies). It's just a naive set.

I wonder if that's what you meant. So yes, I think we're not counting multiplicities here, whatever you mean by that in this context. f(Q) = {y : y = f(a) for some rational a}.
category
Profile Joined July 2009
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 20:59 GMT
#8
lol. I don't know about ramifications. i just meant, eg in the f(x^2) case, does it matter that 1 is obtained twice? but it sounds like no.

i guess for the functions f=x^2 and g=x^4, f(Q) will be larger than g(Q), because some rationals are the square of another rational but are not a fourth power?
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 21:01:28
September 10 2010 21:00 GMT
#9
On September 11 2010 05:59 category wrote:
lol. I don't know about ramifications. i just meant, eg in the f(x^2) case, does it matter that 1 is obtained twice? but it sounds like no.


Right, just count it once. So for example {1,1} = {1}.

i guess for the functions f=x^2 and g=x^4, f(Q) will be larger than g(Q), because some rationals are the square of another rational but are not a fourth power?


That's right.
Assault_1
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1950 Posts
September 10 2010 21:04 GMT
#10
Then f(x) = g(ax + b) for some rational constants a,b.


whats the domain of x, rational or real?
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 21:12:02
September 10 2010 21:06 GMT
#11
On September 11 2010 06:04 Assault_1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Then f(x) = g(ax + b) for some rational constants a,b.


whats the domain of x, rational or real?


any field containing the rationals. It really doesn't matter, since the condition is only imposed on f(Q) and g(Q). You don't need to "see" bigger fields containing the rationals. Any such field is infinite anyway, so if the condition f(x) = g(ax + b) holds for evaluating x on all rationals then it's identical as polynomials (in the ring Q[x]) so evaluation of x on any field containing Q likewise.
category
Profile Joined July 2009
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 21:09 GMT
#12
On September 11 2010 06:04 Assault_1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Then f(x) = g(ax + b) for some rational constants a,b.


whats the domain of x, rational or real?


i would say, think of it as being the rationals.

but yeah, i am finding this quite hard, though I find the result very interesting.
sputnik.theory
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Poland449 Posts
September 10 2010 21:16 GMT
#13
I've noticed that threads like this pop up during the school year...
ITT: TL does your math homework for you
“On the night of the murder I was at home, asleep. The characters in my dream can vouch for me.”
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 21:16 GMT
#14
On September 11 2010 06:16 sputnik.theory wrote:
I've noticed that threads like this pop up during the school year...
ITT: TL does your math homework for you


Rest assured, I've already solved this. It's not a homework.
Seth_
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Belgium184 Posts
September 10 2010 21:18 GMT
#15
May I (a non-math major) ask for an example of an f(x) and g(x) polynomial for which this is true.
Fly[DCT]
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada38 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 21:25:16
September 10 2010 21:18 GMT
#16
On September 11 2010 06:04 Assault_1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Then f(x) = g(ax + b) for some rational constants a,b.


whats the domain of x, rational or real?


I am guessing the real or complex is fine. Once we can prove this for the real it automatically implies that it's also true for the complex.

On September 11 2010 06:18 Seth_ wrote:
May I (a non-math major) ask for an example of an f(x) and g(x) polynomial for which this is true.


Sure. f(x) = x^2. g(x) = (2x)^2.
lalalalala
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States556 Posts
September 10 2010 21:25 GMT
#17
f(Q) clearly equals g(Q) if f(x)=g(ax+b)

Thus WLOG f and g have integer coefficients that are relatively prime and 0 as their constant terms.

Suppose f(x)=a_nx^n+...a_1*x.

Suppose g(x)=b_nx^n+...+b_1*x.

Let p^r be a prime power dividing a_1 but not b_1, if such a prime power exists. Then f(x) will always be divisible by p either less than or equal to 0 times or more than r times, while g(p) is divisible by p at least once and at most r times.

So this means that f(Q)=g(Q) then a_1= plus/minus b_1

One can continue inductively through all the coefficients
starleague.mit.edu
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States556 Posts
September 10 2010 21:26 GMT
#18
Or something like that... don't have time to check everything but should be close
starleague.mit.edu
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 21:48:28
September 10 2010 21:29 GMT
#19
On September 11 2010 06:25 Muirhead wrote:
f(Q) clearly equals g(Q) if f(x)=g(ax+b)

Thus WLOG f and g have integer coefficients that are relatively prime and 0 as their constant terms.

Suppose f(x)=a_nx^n+...a_1*x.

Suppose g(x)=b_nx^n+...+b_1*x.

Let p^r be a prime power dividing a_1 but not b_1, if such a prime power exists. Then f(x) will always be divisible by p either less than or equal to 0 times or more than r times, while g(p) is divisible by p at least once and at most r times.

So this means that f(Q)=g(Q) then a_1= plus/minus b_1

One can continue inductively through all the coefficients


Need a lot more details, and I'm not convinced of this argument either. You're saying WLOG assume 0 as their constant terms? And then you're assuming deg f = deg g (this is true, but you didn't mention how to prove this at all). And then there's the next paragraph which doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

Enjoy your Friday anyway!
naptiem
Profile Joined July 2009
United States21 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 21:33:06
September 10 2010 21:29 GMT
#20
Here's an attempt for any field, F:

+ Show Spoiler +

Since f(F)=g(F), g(F) includes f(x) and there must be an element s of F where g(s)=f(x).

Rewrite s in the form ax+b for some a,b in F:

If x = 0, let b = s and a be any number in F.
Then ax+b = a 0 + s = s.

If x is not 0, let a = x^-1, the multiplicative inverse of x in F, and b = s - 1.
Then ax+b = (x^-1) x + (s - 1) = 1 + (s - 1) = s.

In both cases, ax+b = s and g(ax+b) = g(s) = f(x).


Edit: Never mind, I think I misread the problem.
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 17m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
NeuroSwarm 172
StarCraft: Brood War
BeSt 232
Leta 82
HiyA 43
Shinee 36
Mind 31
ToSsGirL 27
ZergMaN 24
NotJumperer 9
Icarus 7
Britney 1
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K741
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox523
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor150
Other Games
summit1g6794
C9.Mang0269
ViBE47
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush1547
• Lourlo1398
• Stunt554
• HappyZerGling69
Upcoming Events
GSL
1h 17m
Wardi Open
5h 17m
Monday Night Weeklies
10h 17m
WardiTV Team League
1d 5h
PiGosaur Cup
1d 17h
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
OSC
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
KCM Race Survival
3 days
WardiTV Team League
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
KCM Race Survival
4 days
WardiTV Team League
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
BSL
5 days
BSL
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-03-13
WardiTV Winter 2026
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
BSL Season 22
CSL Elite League 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
2026 Changsha Offline CUP
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
NationLESS Cup
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.