• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 17:19
CET 23:19
KST 07:19
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview3RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4) BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced
Tourneys
RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! Tenacious Turtle Tussle 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament StarCraft2.fi 15th Anniversary Cup
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [BSL21] RO8 Bracket & Prediction Contest BW General Discussion Let's talk about Metropolis Foreign Brood War
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO16 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Dawn of War IV Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
How Sleep Deprivation Affect…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 960 users

Math Puzzle #3

Blogs > mieda
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-12 22:32:52
September 10 2010 20:12 GMT
#1
Let f,g be polynomials with rational coefficients. Suppose f(Q) = g(Q) (i.e. the sets of values of f and g on the rationals are the same). Then f(x) = g(ax + b) for some rational constants a,b.

Remark. It generalizes to number fields with real embeddings.

Note that the converse is trivial.

Solution

The idea is that (mod the full details) there's a fixed discrete subgroup L of Q such that for any integer x, the rational solutions, viewed in y, of g(y) = f(x) are all in L. To extract the behavior of y as x varies, and compare the coefficients at the same time, i.e. the growth rates, you can consider expressions of the form g(y') - g(y) = f(x+1) - f(x) where y' is the corresponding rational number such that g(y') = f(x+1). By mean value theorem (don't quite need this, since f,g are polynomials so one can potentially do all the computations by algebra) the expression extracts out y' - y in terms of f'(x) and g'(y) roughly, and this gives a good comparison of y as x varies. This is the idea, and I do some computations to show that this works.

Also, simple valuation calculations (plug in this, plug in that rational number, compare the p-adic valuations) don't really seem to get anywhere, as I give plenty of counter examples and point out the problems to the claims of one of the posters below.

*
Assault_1
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1950 Posts
September 10 2010 20:34 GMT
#2
so whats the question?
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 20:43 GMT
#3
On September 11 2010 05:34 Assault_1 wrote:
so whats the question?


Proving it.
Piege
Profile Joined October 2009
United Kingdom128 Posts
September 10 2010 20:52 GMT
#4
Would a non-math major/non-math enthusiast be able to solve this?
Never_V_ -> Fin
category
Profile Joined July 2009
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 20:53 GMT
#5
the sets f(Q) and g(Q) are not counting multiplicity right?
category
Profile Joined July 2009
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 20:54 GMT
#6
On September 11 2010 05:52 Piege wrote:
Would a non-math major/non-math enthusiast be able to solve this?


I don't know the solution yet but I suspect the answer to your question is no.
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 20:56:54
September 10 2010 20:55 GMT
#7
On September 11 2010 05:53 category wrote:
the sets f(Q) and g(Q) are not counting multiplicity right?


They're just sets, not really any structures on them (for ex. ramifications). For example for the functio f(x) = x^2 the set f(Q) is just the set of all squares of rational numbers. We don't care that f(x) = 0 ramifies (and elsewhere unramifies). It's just a naive set.

I wonder if that's what you meant. So yes, I think we're not counting multiplicities here, whatever you mean by that in this context. f(Q) = {y : y = f(a) for some rational a}.
category
Profile Joined July 2009
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 20:59 GMT
#8
lol. I don't know about ramifications. i just meant, eg in the f(x^2) case, does it matter that 1 is obtained twice? but it sounds like no.

i guess for the functions f=x^2 and g=x^4, f(Q) will be larger than g(Q), because some rationals are the square of another rational but are not a fourth power?
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 21:01:28
September 10 2010 21:00 GMT
#9
On September 11 2010 05:59 category wrote:
lol. I don't know about ramifications. i just meant, eg in the f(x^2) case, does it matter that 1 is obtained twice? but it sounds like no.


Right, just count it once. So for example {1,1} = {1}.

i guess for the functions f=x^2 and g=x^4, f(Q) will be larger than g(Q), because some rationals are the square of another rational but are not a fourth power?


That's right.
Assault_1
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1950 Posts
September 10 2010 21:04 GMT
#10
Then f(x) = g(ax + b) for some rational constants a,b.


whats the domain of x, rational or real?
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 21:12:02
September 10 2010 21:06 GMT
#11
On September 11 2010 06:04 Assault_1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Then f(x) = g(ax + b) for some rational constants a,b.


whats the domain of x, rational or real?


any field containing the rationals. It really doesn't matter, since the condition is only imposed on f(Q) and g(Q). You don't need to "see" bigger fields containing the rationals. Any such field is infinite anyway, so if the condition f(x) = g(ax + b) holds for evaluating x on all rationals then it's identical as polynomials (in the ring Q[x]) so evaluation of x on any field containing Q likewise.
category
Profile Joined July 2009
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 21:09 GMT
#12
On September 11 2010 06:04 Assault_1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Then f(x) = g(ax + b) for some rational constants a,b.


whats the domain of x, rational or real?


i would say, think of it as being the rationals.

but yeah, i am finding this quite hard, though I find the result very interesting.
sputnik.theory
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Poland449 Posts
September 10 2010 21:16 GMT
#13
I've noticed that threads like this pop up during the school year...
ITT: TL does your math homework for you
“On the night of the murder I was at home, asleep. The characters in my dream can vouch for me.”
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 21:16 GMT
#14
On September 11 2010 06:16 sputnik.theory wrote:
I've noticed that threads like this pop up during the school year...
ITT: TL does your math homework for you


Rest assured, I've already solved this. It's not a homework.
Seth_
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Belgium184 Posts
September 10 2010 21:18 GMT
#15
May I (a non-math major) ask for an example of an f(x) and g(x) polynomial for which this is true.
Fly[DCT]
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada38 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 21:25:16
September 10 2010 21:18 GMT
#16
On September 11 2010 06:04 Assault_1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Then f(x) = g(ax + b) for some rational constants a,b.


whats the domain of x, rational or real?


I am guessing the real or complex is fine. Once we can prove this for the real it automatically implies that it's also true for the complex.

On September 11 2010 06:18 Seth_ wrote:
May I (a non-math major) ask for an example of an f(x) and g(x) polynomial for which this is true.


Sure. f(x) = x^2. g(x) = (2x)^2.
lalalalala
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States556 Posts
September 10 2010 21:25 GMT
#17
f(Q) clearly equals g(Q) if f(x)=g(ax+b)

Thus WLOG f and g have integer coefficients that are relatively prime and 0 as their constant terms.

Suppose f(x)=a_nx^n+...a_1*x.

Suppose g(x)=b_nx^n+...+b_1*x.

Let p^r be a prime power dividing a_1 but not b_1, if such a prime power exists. Then f(x) will always be divisible by p either less than or equal to 0 times or more than r times, while g(p) is divisible by p at least once and at most r times.

So this means that f(Q)=g(Q) then a_1= plus/minus b_1

One can continue inductively through all the coefficients
starleague.mit.edu
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States556 Posts
September 10 2010 21:26 GMT
#18
Or something like that... don't have time to check everything but should be close
starleague.mit.edu
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 21:48:28
September 10 2010 21:29 GMT
#19
On September 11 2010 06:25 Muirhead wrote:
f(Q) clearly equals g(Q) if f(x)=g(ax+b)

Thus WLOG f and g have integer coefficients that are relatively prime and 0 as their constant terms.

Suppose f(x)=a_nx^n+...a_1*x.

Suppose g(x)=b_nx^n+...+b_1*x.

Let p^r be a prime power dividing a_1 but not b_1, if such a prime power exists. Then f(x) will always be divisible by p either less than or equal to 0 times or more than r times, while g(p) is divisible by p at least once and at most r times.

So this means that f(Q)=g(Q) then a_1= plus/minus b_1

One can continue inductively through all the coefficients


Need a lot more details, and I'm not convinced of this argument either. You're saying WLOG assume 0 as their constant terms? And then you're assuming deg f = deg g (this is true, but you didn't mention how to prove this at all). And then there's the next paragraph which doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

Enjoy your Friday anyway!
naptiem
Profile Joined July 2009
United States21 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 21:33:06
September 10 2010 21:29 GMT
#20
Here's an attempt for any field, F:

+ Show Spoiler +

Since f(F)=g(F), g(F) includes f(x) and there must be an element s of F where g(s)=f(x).

Rewrite s in the form ax+b for some a,b in F:

If x = 0, let b = s and a be any number in F.
Then ax+b = a 0 + s = s.

If x is not 0, let a = x^-1, the multiplicative inverse of x in F, and b = s - 1.
Then ax+b = (x^-1) x + (s - 1) = 1 + (s - 1) = s.

In both cases, ax+b = s and g(ax+b) = g(s) = f(x).


Edit: Never mind, I think I misread the problem.
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 11m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
White-Ra 248
JuggernautJason143
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 11896
Sea 1340
ggaemo 43
NaDa 40
Counter-Strike
fl0m7268
zeus469
Foxcn12
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu460
Other Games
summit1g10478
Grubby5331
tarik_tv1231
shahzam424
DeMusliM274
C9.Mang0144
Trikslyr54
ViBE48
ZombieGrub41
Mew2King2
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV87
StarCraft 2
angryscii 38
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• 80smullet 24
• Pr0nogo 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV370
League of Legends
• Doublelift2048
• TFBlade1257
Other Games
• imaqtpie2305
• Shiphtur90
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
6h 11m
StarCraft2.fi
11h 41m
IPSL
18h 41m
Sziky vs JDConan
OSC
18h 41m
Solar vs Percival
Gerald vs Nicoract
Creator vs ByuN
RSL Revival
1d 6h
Classic vs TBD
herO vs Zoun
WardiTV 2025
1d 14h
herO vs ShoWTimE
SHIN vs herO
Clem vs herO
SHIN vs Clem
SHIN vs ShoWTimE
Clem vs ShoWTimE
IPSL
1d 18h
Tarson vs DragOn
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Revival: Season 3
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
RSL Offline Finals
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.