Pokemon Question (smogon-ish content)

KurtistheTurtle

United States1966 Posts

September 10 2010 02:14 GMT

There's a guy in a club I belong to who posted this on the club forum. I want to disagree with it on basis of butterfree being an awful pokemon and the guy interrupting everybody every time they speak.

Posted by /B/utterfree (yeah thats really his name)

Look at my "gamertag". Ignore the slashes, as they are decorative.
If I bothered with Pokemon tournaments, I'd be the guy who has Butterfree as a lead because it is one of my favorite Pokemon. I also think that Smogon doesn't give Butterfree enough credit.

So, out of boredom and "I wonder how others would see these movepools"-type mentality, I present to you a set of movepools that I think are tons better than what Smogon has at the moment. For most movepools I refuse to put SleepPowder in it. Against SleepTalkers and people immune to sleep anyway, it's a waste of a move.

Butterfree has the ability Compoundeyes, allowing moves to be much more accurate. I say that is a very good ability, especially against SandAttack/SmokeScreen abusers.

- Movepool 1: Anti-Dragon -
*Generally, this Butterfree is designed to go against Dragon Pokemon. Try not to laugh too hard. Give Butterfree King's Rock for bonus flinching, or Focus Band so it can live longer (assuming one knows to train Effort Values in Defense/Specials of both sorts more than Speed. Speed without the other stats is fairly insubstantial. Butterfree has better Specials than Speed, and Defense and Speed are on-par with each other. Ditto for HP if you're REALLY conscious about Effort Values. Think about it, maybe laugh a bit harder if you'd like).

1. Hidden Power (Ice/Dragon. Hidden Power is a move that, while initially Normal, changes type to one dependent on Individual Values) [If it's a shiny, you have to have Dragon because it's that or Hidden Power Grass in terms of options for shinies.] - Most, if not all Dragon Pokemon, are doubly weak to Ice. Being part-Flying shouldn't intimidate the player, especially if the Hidden Power is Ice. If the Hidden Power is Dragon, that's fine also. In fact, Kingdra will suffer more [severe] hits from Hidden Power Dragon anyway.

2. StunSpore (Grass) - The Speed of most Dragons is phenomenal and needs to be lowered to confront them anyway. Prevention is also a good thing.

3. Twister (Dragon) - Flinching and denting a person with a Dragon lead. Also, Twister does more damage to Pokemon who use Fly/Bounce. This move is a Tutor-only move, and Butterfree can learn this one.

4. Swagger (Normal) - Confusion > Sleep, Confusion > Poison, and Confusion > Attract. Combine with Paralysis and you have a lockdown, especially if the player likes switching a lot.

- Movepool 2: Anti-Steel Lead-
*Again, try not to laugh so hard. This one in essence allows for someone to get around the Attract immunity of most Steel-types and around the Toxic immunity of all Steel-types. Most of Smogon's movepools don't confront Steel users well when regarding Butterfree.

1. Hidden Power (Fire) - Fire is the biggest weakness for most, if not all, Steel-types.

2. Sunny Day (Fire) - Enhancing Hidden Power Fire is a mandatory option to try to OHKO Steel-types.

3. Solarbeam (Grass) - What, you think that it's going to be a party of only Steel Pokemon? Well, maybe if they're Sandstorming, but even so there's the offchance of a Water/Ground supporter being in the mix of things. This is also one of the few ways that Butterfree can actually have a Grass move do regular (and good, mind you) damage against Empoleon.

4. U-Turn (Bug) - A STAB move, and also a good way to strategize against the support with the other five Pokemon you brought with you.

- Movepool 3: Total Support -
*This one is the most practical. Butterfree's movepool is a bit more diverse than others when it comes to affliction. The only downside is now Butterfree can't be the lead person in a party unless only Defense, Special Defense and Speed are Effort Value'd. In Double Battles, this moveset truly shines.

1. Rain Dance (Water) - People should be having Lapras (Water/Ice), Empoleon (Water/Steel) or Swampert (Water/Ground) as one of the other 5 Pokemon. Why? They cover all the problems Butterfree has, and are all good for dismantling entire parties. It also allows Thunder to deal much more damage, and while Butterfree itself can't learn Thunder, others can (like Lapras).

2. Whirlwind (Normal) - Trade one annoying Sweeper for something much weaker? A deal can actually be made here.

3. Stun Spore (Grass) - Paralysis slows the opposition down. It also allows Butterfree to survive longer.

4. Endure (Normal) - Same as Stun Spore, albeit no Paralysis. If someone switches into an Infernape or otherwise hazardous Pokemon, this move is VERY helpful.

I will quote you and give your username full credit in the response so long as it CRUSHES butterfree. There are potential blog-bans for extremely pro-butterfree posters.

StorrZerg

United States13922 Posts

September 10 2010 02:19 GMT

I'd say don't ignore the /b/ cuase isn't that 4chan... lol

I dislike butterfree, i think its terrible

Kyuukyuu

Canada6263 Posts

September 10 2010 02:25 GMT

lol butterfree as a set-up lead

yeah that makes sense

wait lol why does it have endure in the last set

Chairman Ray

United States11903 Posts

September 10 2010 02:25 GMT

I think it's a troll post tbh.

LaXerCannon

Canada558 Posts

September 10 2010 02:25 GMT

I'll do it later if noone's up for it

seRapH

United States9827 Posts

September 10 2010 02:26 GMT

:O

i... i don't know what to say.... its just so....

ok, let me regain my composure and see if i can write up a rant -_-

infinitestory

United States4053 Posts

September 10 2010 02:33 GMT

That post is completely troll. I'm pretty sure Butterfree can't OHKO most dragons, even with HP Ice. Move suggestions like Twister and Endure with item suggestions like King's Rock put the nail in this coffin.

Butterfree is still the most consistent sleep lead though (note this does not mean it is the BEST sleep lead, but with scarf, compoundeyes, and sleep powder, it does almost guarantee sleeping the enemy on the first turn)

EDIT: long-winded rant (done):
Set 1: While Stun Spore and Swagger are acceptable moves, Butterfree isn't exactly the bulkiest setup pokemon ever. Butterfree would need a miracle to carry out those two moves, and even then the dragon could counter back with a +2 attack shot.
vs Flygon: While Choice Specs Hidden Power Ice does in fact murder Flygon, due to Flygon's high speed and its tendency to run Choice Scarf with a fire type attack as a standard set, Butterfree will be burnt to a crisp before it can even launch an attack. It could be viable to run Focus Sash on Butterfree in this case, but with the everpresent Stealth Rock, Butterfree will almost always lose that sash.
vs Dragonite: A Choice Scarfed Butterfree would outspeed and .... dent heavily. Again, un-Specs Butterfree will not kill, and once again, Dragonite's superb power would pretty much guarantee the counterattack kill.

Set 2: Hidden Power Fire simply isn't strong enough, and with the presence of Heatran, that gimmick will often work only once.
vs the only really common Steel lead, Metagross: Butterfree without Choice Specs does a pitiful 40% on average against 252/0 neutral nature Metagross. With Choice Specs, Metagross still survives to put up Stealth Rock, and the wary Metagross user will realize Butterfree has Choice Specs and switch out to one of the many pokemon that can set up on a choiced fire type attack. These include Dragonite, Tyranitar, Gyarados, Kingdra, and Heatran, among others.

Set 3: Endure is worthless, since Butterfree doesn't have a reason to survive a hit. Whirlwind is similar; since it goes last, there's no way for Butterfree to take the hit and use it. This Butterfree is quite literally Taunt setup fodder. There are so many better pokemon to set up Rain Dance as a lead, Bronzong, Electrode, and Ludicolo to name a few.
vs this set doesn't even have any plausible matchups at all since many leads are faster and carry taunt

EDIT again: I'll now list a better alternative to each of the three sets:
Set 1 is vastly inferior to Choice Banded Weavile on the attacking side, while pokemon such as Vaporeon can debilitate enemies while launching Ice Beams back and healing itself.
Set 2 simply has zero (0) advantages over every fire type. What good is a gimmick "unexpected" fire move if, even with the surprise factor, it fails to kill? Heatran and Infernape do the job better, even Entei in some circumstances.
Set 3 ... just don't use it. Use Bronzong. I don't even want to look at it.

jon arbuckle

Canada443 Posts

September 10 2010 02:40 GMT

Aren't Sand Attack/Smokescreen in the same department as Double Team and therefore not allowed in ladder play?

It's been a while.

kineSiS-

Korea (South)1068 Posts

September 10 2010 02:41 GMT

You sure the /b/ wasn't related to 4Chan ?/?

Chairman Ray

United States11903 Posts

September 10 2010 02:42 GMT

#10

On September 10 2010 11:40 jon arbuckle wrote:
Aren't Sand Attack/Smokescreen in the same department as Double Team and therefore not allowed in ladder play?

It's been a while.

Sand attack and smokescreen are allowed because your opponent can switch out to negate the effect.

DoctorHelvetica

United States15034 Posts

September 10 2010 02:47 GMT

#11

butterfree is a terrible lead

he is only useful to land a turn 1 sleep powder and even then a lot of leads outspeed him

seRapH

United States9827 Posts

September 10 2010 02:48 GMT

#12

Butterfree's Base Stats:
HP- 60
ATK- 45
DEF- 50
SP. ATK- 80
SP. DEF- 80
SPD- 70

1) Assuming this butterfree is switching in to take down the dragon, it has to survive TWO hits because every dragon is faster than it, and there's a high chance that it'll be a fire attack. Let's not forget that even an altaria, not ev trained or iv bred can do almost 50% to butterfree with dragon claw. And that's assuming you somehow take it out in one hit. And that isn't even possible because it wouldn't even be able to take down a flygon in 3 hits. Even if for some reason your opponent is stupid enough to send out their dragon against a butterfree (which is infamous for stun spore/sleep powder), it'd still have a 54% chance of attacking through paralysis AND flinch.

2) Steel-types that butterfree can beat: Forretress. Jirachi has higher speed, lucario can swords dance and extremespeed, magnezone i don't think i have to mention, scizor can survive anything butterfree throws at it and kill with 2 bullet punches, skarmory i don't have to mention, heatran i don't have to mention, metagross i don't have to mention, empoleon is neutral or resistant, bronzong has way too high defensive capabilities + gyro ball. good luck.

3) Empoleon is wayyyy too slow for use on a rain dance team, as is swampert, get a azelf or bronzong or ludicolo or something instead if you really want to make rain dance work. because rain only increases thunder's ACCURACY. not DAMAGE. good luck with whirlwind, considering how FRAGILE butterfree is, endure wastes your rain dance (plus accomplishes nothing since they're probably faster than you anyways).

atombombforpeace

United States408 Posts

September 10 2010 02:55 GMT

#13

First off it looks like the guy only has the barest sense of how competitive play works. He sorta mentions EVs but doesn't even mention a nature/EV spread for any of these builds. Secondly, he mentions utterly ridiculous items that no one should use ever. A focus sash is practically a necessity for butterfree since everything kills it one shot. By starting off saying he refuses to use sleep powder basically means he wants to gimp his moveset by not utilizing butterfree's best move essentially.

The builds people covered already.

Honestly, he sounds as though he doesn't care about using the best possible pokemon anyways, so what's the argument about?

seRapH

United States9827 Posts

September 10 2010 02:55 GMT

#14

On September 10 2010 11:55 atombombforpeace wrote:
First off it looks like the guy only has the barest sense of how competitive play works. He sorta mentions EVs but doesn't even mention a nature/EV spread for any of these builds. Secondly, he mentions utterly ridiculous items that no one should use ever. A focus sash is practically a necessity for butterfree since everything kills it one shot. By starting off saying he refuses to use sleep powder basically means he wants to gimp his moveset by not utilizing butterfree's best move essentially.

The builds people covered already.

Honestly, he sounds as though he doesn't care about using the best possible pokemon anyways, so what's the argument about?

think our sc2 forums. thats what this is about.

deafhobbit

United States828 Posts

September 10 2010 02:57 GMT

#15

Um, it's been awhile since i did any competitive pokemon stuff, but i know for a fact that shiny status hasn't been IV dependent since Gen 2.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Shiny

More broadly, this guy is either a troll or a total idiot. Honestly, i suspect the latter more than the former. Not posting builds in the accepted format is a give away that he doesn't know much, as is not providing speed calculations and OHKO probs, especially when he intends to use Butterfly as a lead. Likewise, not saying what tier he intends to play in further make it seem like this guy doesn't know shit. Since he repeatedly mentions Empoleon as both a threat and a good partner, however, I'll assume he's talking about OU. On the whole, 60 that he's dumb, 40 that he's a troll.

Set 1 -

For an anti dragon pokemon, HP ice always > HP dragon

Stun Spore ain't a bad move, but using it would essentially sacrifice butterfly for paralyzing a dragon. This CAN be worth it in certain circumstances, but this poke doesn't have enough going on as a whole to make it worth inclusion in a team.

Twister is just terrible, and Swagger isn't that great an idea either. At best, it's a pseudo haze, at worst an opponent with a good physical or mixed dragon might roll the dice and see how much he can kill with a free swords dance.

Set 2

HP Fire - Butterfly doesn't have the stats to make this move powerful enough, especially when most steels tend to be only x2 weak to fire.

Sunny Day - lolwut?

Solar Beam - Well, if you're gonna take sunny day, you might as well. At the same time, grass is generally not a good offensive type. Also, saying this is a good idea because it does neutral damage to empoleon when HP Fire does the same further undermines his cred.

U-Turn - This move rocks, and i can't fault him including it. It doesn't make butterfly good enough though, even with STAB.

Set 3

Rain Dance - This aint ubers. Last i heard, Ttar is still common enough that you can't count on weather effects, and even if you could this move still ain't that good. Taking thunder on anything is usually a terrible idea unless you can count on rain, which while reasonable in ubers, is not something you want to do in OU.

Whirlwind - Whirlwind has -6 priority, to use it butterfree has to stand up to an attack - fat chance. It can be useful against someone setting up or turtling, but thats at best a one time thing before your opponent realizes what you're up to and smacks butterfree every time it shows it's face.

Stun Spore - Again, not a bad move. At the same time, just like before even with SS butterfree doesn't bring enough to the table to justify taking it.

Endure - Delaying the inevitable. With no moves to capitalize on being at 1hp, there's very little reason to take endure.

Also, even if none of what i said above was true, 4x Stealth Rock weakness is a bitch. Better pokes than butterfree have been knocked down tiers due to this (Articuno, and Moltres are the first that pop into my head).

infinitestory

United States4053 Posts

September 10 2010 02:57 GMT

#16

On September 10 2010 11:55 seRapH wrote:

Show nested quote +

think our sc2 forums. thats what this is about.

I was about to post a long-winded analogy which would have been unnecessarily convoluted, but I think Seraph's comparison is quite apt
The post is either totally clueless/misinformed or intentionally terrible in order to troll. I'll give benefit of the doubt, but not without voicing my suspicions.