• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:41
CEST 01:41
KST 08:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?12FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event15Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster14Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1Weekly Cups (June 9-15): herO doubles on GSL week4
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? StarCraft Mass Recall: SC1 campaigns on SC2 thread The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event HomeStory Cup 27 (June 27-29) WardiTV Mondays SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 $200 Biweekly - StarCraft Evolution League #1
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] Darkgrid Layout
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
ASL20 Preliminary Maps BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Unit and Spell Similarities
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread [BSL20] ProLeague LB Final - Saturday 20:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Trading/Investing Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
Game Sound vs. Music: The Im…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 590 users

so what's the deal with expansion?

Blogs > tomc
Post a Reply
tomc
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States84 Posts
August 21 2010 06:58 GMT
#1
X-plaining the X-pansion

Knowing when to expand is critical in Starcraft. It takes this same course in Starcraft II, where it can make or break your games depending if you do it too quickly. I walk into games wanting to test different build orders, 1 base roach, 2 base speedings to hydra or mutalisk, but it's pretty much a mystery to me when the average expansion should occur.

Many zerg players like myself enjoy going 15 pool 16 hatch, getting them right off the bat. I certainly feel better when this happens, but when scouting is indeterminate of what the opposition is going to do (playing aggressive or maybe turtle till XXX or YYY is achieved (this is often done in silver/gold). You'll see pros knowing exactly when to attack and when to defend. When 15 roaches or 15 marines and 1 medivac dropship could do the job against 25 marines. I'm not sure what the math is like, I suppose I could go back and create custom games to see how many X kills how many Y. I'd imagine it's pretty similar to 1 though, where a zealot could almost just kill 3 zergling (non-upgraded). I love build orders, but they get so foggy in the middle of the games and nonexistent late game. The general answer is to just counter your opponent, I know, but to find the balance of when im expanding or just overextending. I'll push for yellows maybe too late, no creep there to drop 3-4 spines or spores depending on the opponent army composition. Then if I don't scout yellows, people take them early game.

Kulas Ravine is a great example. I never expected a player from across the map come to my side and take the yellows at 16 supply. It was a masterstroke in the silver league and now I'm always scouting BOTH of them to keep from being so surprised when the econ of the other player far outstrips my own. Also a great map to scout on in general because it's so huge. I'm starting to see tendencies on certain official ladder maps such as Kulas, where protoss are likely to go air or proxy warpgate with a well hidden pylon while they stack their base with cannons screwing any and all use of non armored units. Broodlords are effective against this, but it takes a long time to get those and you might already see some phoenixes or vikings to come combat them.

Speaking of Broodlords, there's a lot of things I don't really know about them. They do damage by shooting out the broodlings, I think they do a straight shot damage when it *hits* something, then the broodling sticks around to attack. I'm thinking there must be a 'sweet-spot' in the amount of broodlords needed to be effective. You're going to see some kind of anti air coming at you when you've gotten so late that you're actually USING brood lords. Maybe 4 brood lords is enough? Or is exponentially better to have tons more at the expense of lost corruptors, which I need dearly to protect the broods.

Back to expansion talking. It's not too crazy to take the next one near your original base, but where do you go from there? I've watched plenty of HD/Husky videos from that tournament they casted, and it looked like idRa just went in the semicircle type of effect with his bases. Was this only because he made just a ground army? Could he not afford to overextend to the yellows on metalopolis? If I had ever seen him use mutalisks in that series they casted, I probably would have had my answer.

When do you think it's best to expand?

GosuCoaching.com

After hearing about this on the SotG (State of the Game) Podcast, I was anxious to see what it had to offer. I was rather disappointed that looked like it was just a blog site. I thought it would be similar to SkillCapped for WoW Arena. Though SkillCapped costs a bit of money and I doubt it offers individual coaching, it has a website that looks like it's... well... a gaming website. Much like GameRiot without the spam! I suppose I held it to a standard of looking like a GotFrag or GosuGamers (probably the latter due to it's name). But, the service STILL looks interesting, in that they train scrubs like myself to become better players. Introduces you to other players far beyond your skill level, and gives you practice against them. They'll tell you what you did wrongly, how you could have scouted more efficiently, and what to do to keep your APM higher and control more units at once. However, no prices are shown on the website as far as I know, so I can hardly say if it's worth it or not. I'm not aware of what counterstrike tutoring is an hour any more. I'm assuming about $30 or perhaps more. I'll keep an eye on it to see how things change after launch and I hope everyone else does too.


Resorting back to bots

Now that phase 2 is over and I can't go a day without my fucking fix, we resort back to SC2 loaders. I'm still pretty happy with these bots, and now that blizzard bots are in at full throttle it should make for some interesting play. Most diamond players will say this is a waste of time to watch or learn from, since they only can get so far. I think it's pretty damn special though if I a bot could be compared to a gold ranked player. I set my team member to zerg just to watch him go at it, counter units, attack, expand out, take yellows. Apparently the bots are a bit retarded when it comes to roach burrow though as expected. Run them a little bit away from the observer and you're quite free to just burrow and run the hell around him. But I can't complain much, even though that's a strategy I use often against most players as my one surprise and forces them to make the extra stealth detection, depleting their gas just a little more.

As always, welcoming comments!

tomeeeo.506 @ SC2
jtype
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
England2167 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-21 07:21:11
August 21 2010 07:17 GMT
#2
On August 21 2010 15:58 tomc wrote:
Resorting back to bots

Now that phase 2 is over and I can't go a day without my fucking fix, we resort back to SC2 loaders.


It seems you wrote this quite a while ago, before posting it today. Have you bought/are you playing the SC2 retail version? If so, has anything changed since you wrote this? Have you found any answers to your questions?

Expansion timings are extremely important and can definitely mean the difference between wins and losses, so it's something that's well worth taking your time to learn about. As regards answering the specific questions in the OP, I would say that it varies wildly from matchup to matchup, from player to player, from build order to build order and from game to game. This makes it a very difficult issue to get too definitive about.

The simplest of answers will always be "you expand when you can expand", or "when it's safe to do so", or "when you're opponent is unable, for whatever reason, to challenge your expansion", but those answers open up a whole host of questions.

I would simply suggest, for now - just watch a lot of high-level games/vods/replays and take note of player's expansion timings. Ask these questions while watching: When are they expanding? What are they doing whilst they expand? What has just occurred prior to taking their expansion? What happens after they take it? Does the opponent challenge/destroy it? Are they even in a position to challenge it? Are they aware of it? Does it affect the game? If so, how? If not, why?
tomc
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States84 Posts
August 21 2010 07:50 GMT
#3
Oh yeah I wrote this right when phase 2 ended. I've gotten a little bit better, and have had most of my questions answered. Thanks for replying though! I just wanted to repost these since my old blog website went down, and to give a bit of history behind someone who wrote sc2 stuff in the past you know?

I think I've gotten a better idea of when to expand. It ends up being "whenever I need more gas" or whenever I've just held off one of their attacks. I almost always go for gold when I go just above 100 supply.
tomeeeo.506 @ SC2
jtype
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
England2167 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-21 09:28:27
August 21 2010 09:27 GMT
#4
Also, it can often be a good idea to expand while you are putting pressure on, harassing, or just generally attacking your opponent. While this requires a little bit of brief multi-tasking (if you can keep your scout alive in someone's base while following a build order closely, then you are capable of doing this :D), it can really pay off, as your opponent will most likely be too occupied by dealing with whatever you are throwing at him to do anything about, or even notice your expansions.

Furthermore, if you do inflict any decent amount of damage on his army/economy, he will not be able to do anything about your expansion for a while, giving you time to secure it.

On the flip side of this, however, it's always worth trying to get a look at all the likely/possible expos, while your opponent is attacking you, or at the latest, just after the attack. If you don't suffer too heavy losses, but notice your opponent taking an expo, then it could be wise to attack immediately, before they can reap the benefits of it.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 19m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft415
Nina 251
CosmosSc2 67
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 699
MaD[AoV]36
League of Legends
Grubby3767
JimRising 266
Counter-Strike
summit1g9329
Stewie2K670
Foxcn474
sgares296
PGG 63
Super Smash Bros
PPMD85
Mew2King83
hungrybox0
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor136
Other Games
tarik_tv1958
shahzam943
Day[9].tv672
Pyrionflax183
Maynarde160
ProTech45
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick871
BasetradeTV30
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 54
• intothetv
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 36
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift4590
• masondota2774
• Jankos729
Other Games
• imaqtpie1137
• Scarra867
• Day9tv672
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Monday
19m
The PondCast
10h 19m
Replay Cast
1d
RSL Revival
1d 10h
ByuN vs Classic
Clem vs Cham
WardiTV European League
1d 16h
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
herO vs SHIN
Reynor vs Cure
WardiTV European League
2 days
FEL
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
4 days
BSL: ProLeague
4 days
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-06-28
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.