• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:26
CEST 03:26
KST 10:26
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection1Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview4[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview2herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2026)7
Community News
StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th103Weekly Cups (May 18-25): MaxPax wins doubles0Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League4Weekly Cups (May 11-17): Classic wins double1Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO8 Results2
StarCraft 2
General
Changing from 12 to 8 is just asking for StarCraft The death of cheese, from a professional cheeser. StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes? Weekly Cups (May 11-17): Classic wins double
Tourneys
GSL Code S Season 2 (2026) Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 528 Infection Detected Welcome to the External Content forum Mutation # 527 Hell Train
Brood War
General
FlaShFTW vs A.Alm Grudge Match Event BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ VPN experiences Soma's ASL Finals Review OGN to release AI-upscaled StarLeague from Feb 24
Tourneys
[ASL21] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [BSL22] WB Final & LB Semis - Saturday 21:00 CEST
Strategy
Any training maps people recommend? Muta micro map competition [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread Path of Exile Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Dating: How's your luck?
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
McBoner: A hockey love story 2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Esportsmanship: How to NOT B…
TrAiDoS
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 4296 users

Thoughts on Zerg Balance

Blogs > naventus
Post a Reply
naventus
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
United States1337 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-13 02:10:13
August 13 2010 02:09 GMT
#1
Let's look at some discussion pulled from ICCUP, which from D to A, is basically what Diamond is.

Anecdotal from this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=97800

(Breakdown of people's games)

Person A
41 vs terran
92 vs zerg
140 vs protoss

Person B
Against P: 41
Against Z: 58
Against T: 33

Person C
58 vs zerg
72 vs toss
33 vs terran

Person D (KawaiiRice)
88 vs Z
85 vs P
18 vs T

---

[Satire]
Clearly, T is underpowered and underrepresented in BW ladder. Why is T so hard to play? How come T can't scout P reliably (Academy is fairly late in TvP) and has to react to P, but P has a ton of instant death allins?

---

The fact is that statistics like these are more likely to be correlation than causation. They are more likely the result a number of different factors than just "Zerg is UP, therefore no one plays it".

If you want to have a real discussion about why Z is underpowered, you need to list out the specific builds and timings that are difficult to react to. Which builds are indistinguishable? Can responses overlap? Is this a nonissue on some maps?

Or, if people believe it to be the case that 200/200 food fights are the issue, pick apart the scenarios and quantify what the issues are. Is it because the first 200/200 fight, Z might be on equal base, and not be able to recover in time? Or is it really the case that Z can truly be ahead, but 5*(3+4n) larva is not enough to overpower/cleanup the fight? Or maybe there is a sweet spot of time to wait for larva stockpile. A minor, but related, note is that 200/200 T cannot attack move into 200/200 P either…

The conversation really needs to be brutally specific or there is really nothing of value to discuss. Otherwise, the whole dialog is just one person's word against another's, and we are just terribly wasting reams of bytes, and more importantly, time to get to the root of the problem.


***
hmm.
KurtistheTurtle
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1966 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-13 02:38:20
August 13 2010 02:37 GMT
#2
I agree with this blog. I feel like one point needs even more stress, the part about correlation and causation.

People will use small samples of data to draw large conclusions they logically can't. Especially in America, this is nothing new (politicians do it all the time just because Americans are dumb). Statistics is hard and generally deemed unnecessary which leads to nerdrage-fueled discussions about ultimately pointless things.


Wired Magazine May 2010, Do You Speak Statistics by Clive Thompson (pg 36):
"How can global warming be real when there's so much snow?" ¶ Hearing that question--repeatedly--this past February drove Joseph Romm nuts. A massive snowstorm had buried Washington DC, and all across the capital, politicians and pundits who dispute the existence of climate change were cackling. The family of Oklahoma senator Jim Inhofe built an igloo near the Capitol and put up a sign reading AL GORE'S NEW HOME. The planet can't be warming, they said; look at all this white stuff! ¶ Romm--a physicist and climate expert with the Center for American Progress--spent a week explaining to reporters why this line of reasoning is so wrong. Climate change, he said, is all about trend lines. You don't observe it by looking out the window but by analyzing decades' worth of data.


Losing 8 in a row vs Terran for varying reasons =/= Terran is imba. That's some god damn localized snow. Hard data carefully scrutinized, properly contextualized and explained can show situations which display this. Enough of these situations and you've got a case. The same if overall racial winning trends are significantly different over an extended period of time.

Anything before this bottom line and it's probably something you can improve about yourself, or some strategy you're not aware of which you could be using.
“Reject your sense of injury and the injury itself disappears."
Lightwip
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5497 Posts
August 13 2010 02:38 GMT
#3
I've seen way more T's than Z's or P's in my record(D level). I don't think this is particularly accurate at all.
If you are not Bisu, chances are I hate you.
Adeny
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Norway1233 Posts
August 13 2010 04:12 GMT
#4
On August 13 2010 11:38 Lightwip wrote:
I've seen way more T's than Z's or P's in my record(D level). I don't think this is particularly accurate at all.


I'm sure there are lots of zergs at bronze too.
QuanticHawk
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States32139 Posts
August 13 2010 14:14 GMT
#5
On August 13 2010 11:37 KurtistheTurtle wrote:
I agree with this blog. I feel like one point needs even more stress, the part about correlation and causation.

People will use small samples of data to draw large conclusions they logically can't. Especially in America, this is nothing new (politicians do it all the time just because Americans are dumb). Statistics is hard and generally deemed unnecessary which leads to nerdrage-fueled discussions about ultimately pointless things.

Show nested quote +

Wired Magazine May 2010, Do You Speak Statistics by Clive Thompson (pg 36):
"How can global warming be real when there's so much snow?" ¶ Hearing that question--repeatedly--this past February drove Joseph Romm nuts. A massive snowstorm had buried Washington DC, and all across the capital, politicians and pundits who dispute the existence of climate change were cackling. The family of Oklahoma senator Jim Inhofe built an igloo near the Capitol and put up a sign reading AL GORE'S NEW HOME. The planet can't be warming, they said; look at all this white stuff! ¶ Romm--a physicist and climate expert with the Center for American Progress--spent a week explaining to reporters why this line of reasoning is so wrong. Climate change, he said, is all about trend lines. You don't observe it by looking out the window but by analyzing decades' worth of data.


Losing 8 in a row vs Terran for varying reasons =/= Terran is imba. That's some god damn localized snow. Hard data carefully scrutinized, properly contextualized and explained can show situations which display this. Enough of these situations and you've got a case. The same if overall racial winning trends are significantly different over an extended period of time.

Anything before this bottom line and it's probably something you can improve about yourself, or some strategy you're not aware of which you could be using.


Id like it if this were copied in every fucking balance thread
PROFESSIONAL GAMER - SEND ME OFFERS TO JOIN YOUR TEAM - USA USA USA
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
00:00
OSC Elite Rising Star #19
CranKy Ducklings105
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SpeCial 1782
ROOTCatZ 103
Ketroc 48
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 5680
Artosis 755
NaDa 45
Nal_rA 18
Dota 2
monkeys_forever623
League of Legends
Doublelift7744
JimRising 468
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1636
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King51
Other Games
summit1g18004
hungrybox569
Maynarde161
UpATreeSC99
minikerr5
RuFF_SC21
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1233
Counter-Strike
PGL113
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP91
• Hupsaiya 90
• davetesta29
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
10h 34m
Monday Night Weeklies
14h 34m
Replay Cast
22h 34m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 8h
WardiTV Spring Champion…
1d 9h
Maestros of the Game
1d 14h
The PondCast
2 days
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
Maestros of the Game
2 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Spring Champion…
3 days
Maestros of the Game
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
Maestros of the Game
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Solar vs Classic
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
GSL
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
BSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KK 2v2 League Season 1
RSL Revival: Season 5
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
SCTL 2026 Spring
WardiTV Spring 2026
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
Murky Cup 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026

Upcoming

BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Heroes Pulsing #3
Heroes Pulsing #2
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.