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mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-24 17:23:36
July 24 2010 17:23 GMT
#21
On July 25 2010 02:17 Tabbris wrote:
It was bad advice, zealot /sentry is pretty staple vs marauders. Let the silly advice spread makes laddering easier :/


it happened again

we're at what, 4 times on that one page? and this isn't even the actual sc2 forums

☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
AmstAff
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Germany949 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-24 17:26:42
July 24 2010 17:23 GMT
#22
there are no 100% right advices, only 100% false advices. marauders with concussive shells are strong against nearly every gate unit, with micro.
for example:
zealots < marauders (with micro on T side) zealots > marauders (without micro on T side)
sentrys < marauders
stalkers = marauders
stalkers + zealots > marauders
stalkers + zealots + sentrys >> marauders

now you can make the same thing for the terran side. Right now there is no 100% right way to play, thats why you see so many different opening and strategies. the players only know the right counter unit composition at the moment. wait 3months and you will get some 100% right advices how to play.

as an other example watch TLO. i really dislike his style of play, because i think some weeks/months after release you wont see him ever go far in any tournament. his style is based on cheese and micro but bad multitask. thats why you see him often tech to BC, its not because the strategie is super, its because he cant spend his money in time and is too slow to use more units with less HP, but it works for him atm.
at the same time i like to see people like idra, nony and white-ra, they have a more solid ground of skill and i think that will help to stay longer on top.
if you want some short time success with less work, play like TLO
if you want long time success with much and hard work, play like IdrA

now you could tell me that i am wrong, but I think its all about the angle how you look at something ( point of view? or how you call it. i hope you understand what i want/try to say =( )
after 2 years i reached it = marine icon
Tabbris
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Bangladesh2839 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-24 17:30:43
July 24 2010 17:28 GMT
#23
On July 25 2010 02:23 mOnion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 02:17 Tabbris wrote:
It was bad advice, zealot /sentry is pretty staple vs marauders. Let the silly advice spread makes laddering easier :/


it happened again

we're at what, 4 times on that one page? and this isn't even the actual sc2 forums


The Argument was That you shouldest make zealots in the early game which is untrue. What point are u trying to make? Are you just arguing marauders are good vs zealots early game? That wasn't the complete advice

Here let me bold it for you

"marauders are amazing vs zealots early game there really is no point in making zealots against a T early game"

mOnion
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5657 Posts
July 24 2010 17:34 GMT
#24
On July 25 2010 02:28 Tabbris wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 02:23 mOnion wrote:
On July 25 2010 02:17 Tabbris wrote:
It was bad advice, zealot /sentry is pretty staple vs marauders. Let the silly advice spread makes laddering easier :/


it happened again

we're at what, 4 times on that one page? and this isn't even the actual sc2 forums


The Argument was That you shouldest make zealots in the early game which is untrue. What point are u trying to make? Are you just arguing marauders are good vs zealots early game? That wasn't the complete advice

Here let me bold it for you

Show nested quote +
"marauders are amazing vs zealots early game there really is no point in making zealots against a T early game"



ya I understand that, but the way people are presenting their sides of the argument aren't conducive to reaching an appropriate solution

nvm i'm fighting a losing battle here anyway
☆★☆ 7486!!! Join the Ban mOnion Anti-Trolling Initiative! - Caller | "on a scale of machine to 10, how bad is that Zerg?" - LZgamer | you are the new tl.net bonjwa monion, congrats - Rekrul | "Cheeseburgers dynamite lilacs" - Chill
Tabbris
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Bangladesh2839 Posts
July 24 2010 17:41 GMT
#25
On July 25 2010 02:34 mOnion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 02:28 Tabbris wrote:
On July 25 2010 02:23 mOnion wrote:
On July 25 2010 02:17 Tabbris wrote:
It was bad advice, zealot /sentry is pretty staple vs marauders. Let the silly advice spread makes laddering easier :/


it happened again

we're at what, 4 times on that one page? and this isn't even the actual sc2 forums


The Argument was That you shouldest make zealots in the early game which is untrue. What point are u trying to make? Are you just arguing marauders are good vs zealots early game? That wasn't the complete advice

Here let me bold it for you

"marauders are amazing vs zealots early game there really is no point in making zealots against a T early game"



ya I understand that, but the way people are presenting their sides of the argument aren't conducive to reaching an appropriate solution

nvm i'm fighting a losing battle here anyway


I'm sorry im trying really hard to figure out what your saying
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
July 24 2010 17:45 GMT
#26
On July 25 2010 02:16 mOnion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 02:13 L_Master wrote:
"marauders are amazing vs zealots early game there really is no point in making zealots against a T early game"


According to OP, thats what the people where saying. Since we are talking about the game itself and what to make, it is vital to consider other units. This isn't a discussion of mauraders v zealots early game, its a claim about what can be made in the early game; which means you need to consider what can else can be used. If forcefield enables zealots to be effective against maruaders early game, that certainly weakens the claim of the person the OP was arguing with.


no.

if the statement was
"you should only make pure marauders early game because they are great against zealots"
then obviously it would be a false conclusion and it would be vital to consider other units.

but this IS a discussion of mara vs lot early game. you're reading it wrong.


The person states that there is no point in making zealots against T early game. Okay, I suppose you could argue that he is literally meaning there is no point in making pure zealot early game, which is true because of marauders. However, I really don't think that is what he means, though if he is super ignornant he might not understand about sentries and would think that zealots can't have use at all early game.
If he is giving that as advice though, to not make zealots early game v T, thats bad advice either way. If he knows about forcefield then I don't have any idea why he would say that, and if he doesn't its still bad advice because zealots can have a use early game PvT.
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
July 24 2010 17:51 GMT
#27
On July 25 2010 02:19 Plexa wrote:
I think we're going to be a bit more liberal with the sc2strat forum ban upon release


Woohoo! I already feel like a mod patrolling for idiots and correcting them. I feel for ya guys.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
YoureFired
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States822 Posts
July 24 2010 18:00 GMT
#28
I guess this entire thread is just proving the title of the blog :X

On topic, zealots are very bad early game vs marauders and are only decent with zeal/sentry. Even then, the DPS of marauders with stim will just rip through them. The guys advice wasn't too bad.
ted cruz is the zodiac killer
DemiSe
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
883 Posts
July 24 2010 18:19 GMT
#29
Once you get bothered by mindfucked people talking about stuff they know absolutely nothin' about, you've lost the battle!
Let's See Who's Stronger, Your Tricks, Or My Skills.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-24 18:26:10
July 24 2010 18:25 GMT
#30
On July 25 2010 02:23 AmstAff wrote:
there are no 100% right advices, only 100% false advices. marauders with concussive shells are strong against nearly every gate unit, with micro.
for example:
zealots < marauders (with micro on T side) zealots > marauders (without micro on T side)
sentrys < marauders
stalkers = marauders
stalkers + zealots > marauders
stalkers + zealots + sentrys >> marauders

now you can make the same thing for the terran side. Right now there is no 100% right way to play, thats why you see so many different opening and strategies. the players only know the right counter unit composition at the moment. wait 3months and you will get some 100% right advices how to play.

as an other example watch TLO. i really dislike his style of play, because i think some weeks/months after release you wont see him ever go far in any tournament. his style is based on cheese and micro but bad multitask. thats why you see him often tech to BC, its not because the strategie is super, its because he cant spend his money in time and is too slow to use more units with less HP, but it works for him atm.
at the same time i like to see people like idra, nony and white-ra, they have a more solid ground of skill and i think that will help to stay longer on top.
if you want some short time success with less work, play like TLO
if you want long time success with much and hard work, play like IdrA

now you could tell me that i am wrong, but I think its all about the angle how you look at something ( point of view? or how you call it. i hope you understand what i want/try to say =( )


I completely disagree with your entire post, which is kinda funny.
Stalkers lose to marauders 1v1 and cost a lot more. NOT including stim(!) or emp. So stalkers < marauders.
Now having zealots infront of stalkers lets him micro vs your zealots and avoid your stalkers so it doesn't help a lot so cost wise zealot/stalker<marauders.
Zealot/sentry or zealot/sentry/stalker can compete against marauders, but why make stalkers when you want more zealots/sentries anyway? (250/100 = 2 lot 1 sentry/2 stalker) If you have enough forcefields you shouldn't need any more range units than sentries.

TLO has proved time and time again he has one of the best multitasks in the game. He NEVER cheeses at all, I've seen him reaper rush once, no proxys, early pools, baneling busts, roach busts. Nothing. He does a LOT of harass (which takes multitask) and then macros hard with defensive play.

Trowabarton756
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States870 Posts
July 24 2010 18:26 GMT
#31
On July 25 2010 03:00 YoureFired wrote:
I guess this entire thread is just proving the title of the blog :X

On topic, zealots are very bad early game vs marauders and are only decent with zeal/sentry. Even then, the DPS of marauders with stim will just rip through them. The guys advice wasn't too bad.


...
lol wtf? The only way a marauder will win vs a zealot early game is if you can kite it. No kite = marauder gets fucked with stim, with shells. Marauders do less damage even WITH stim against zealots then marines do. Please learn the game before you comment and yes his advice was fucking terrible.
http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/Trowabarton756
hifriend
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
China7935 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-24 18:50:51
July 24 2010 18:50 GMT
#32
On July 25 2010 01:55 Trowabarton756 wrote:
but to say something as stupid as that just makes me want to punch a hole in the wall.

You should have done that, rather than making a whiny blog post.
YoureFired
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States822 Posts
July 24 2010 19:03 GMT
#33
On July 25 2010 03:26 Trowabarton756 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 03:00 YoureFired wrote:
I guess this entire thread is just proving the title of the blog :X

On topic, zealots are very bad early game vs marauders and are only decent with zeal/sentry. Even then, the DPS of marauders with stim will just rip through them. The guys advice wasn't too bad.


...
lol wtf? The only way a marauder will win vs a zealot early game is if you can kite it. No kite = marauder gets fucked with stim, with shells. Marauders do less damage even WITH stim against zealots then marines do. Please learn the game before you comment and yes his advice was fucking terrible.

Who doesn't kite with marauders? and even if force fields are used, the marauders slow down the zealots and stop any sort of surround. I forgot to say that marines are also in the mix, behind the marauders, if the terran is competent.

Any time I tried to use mass gateway units versus marauder/marine, I was killed due to the fact that marauders and marines do sooo much damage, even if they're forcefielded.

Don't flame so much, no need to be a complete and utter prick.
ted cruz is the zodiac killer
alexpnd
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada1857 Posts
July 24 2010 19:06 GMT
#34
Stream chats are the "fringe" channels of team liquid man. It's like the wild west out there. It's better to ignore, or make a strong point and then ignore.
www.brainyweb.ca //web stuff!
lu_cid
Profile Joined April 2008
United States428 Posts
July 24 2010 19:30 GMT
#35
On July 25 2010 02:19 Plexa wrote:
I think we're going to be a bit more liberal with the sc2strat forum ban upon release


God I hope so... unleash the banlings!
AmstAff
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Germany949 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-24 20:44:19
July 24 2010 20:43 GMT
#36
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 25 2010 03:25 Slayer91 wrote:
On July 25 2010 02:23 AmstAff wrote:
there are no 100% right advices, only 100% false advices. marauders with concussive shells are strong against nearly every gate unit, with micro.
for example:
zealots < marauders (with micro on T side) zealots > marauders (without micro on T side)
sentrys < marauders
stalkers = marauders
stalkers + zealots > marauders
stalkers + zealots + sentrys >> marauders

now you can make the same thing for the terran side. Right now there is no 100% right way to play, thats why you see so many different opening and strategies. the players only know the right counter unit composition at the moment. wait 3months and you will get some 100% right advices how to play.

as an other example watch TLO. i really dislike his style of play, because i think some weeks/months after release you wont see him ever go far in any tournament. his style is based on cheese and micro but bad multitask. thats why you see him often tech to BC, its not because the strategie is super, its because he cant spend his money in time and is too slow to use more units with less HP, but it works for him atm.
at the same time i like to see people like idra, nony and white-ra, they have a more solid ground of skill and i think that will help to stay longer on top.
if you want some short time success with less work, play like TLO
if you want long time success with much and hard work, play like IdrA

now you could tell me that i am wrong, but I think its all about the angle how you look at something ( point of view? or how you call it. i hope you understand what i want/try to say =( )


I completely disagree with your entire post, which is kinda funny.
Stalkers lose to marauders 1v1 and cost a lot more. NOT including stim(!) or emp. So stalkers < marauders.
Now having zealots infront of stalkers lets him micro vs your zealots and avoid your stalkers so it doesn't help a lot so cost wise zealot/stalker<marauders.
Zealot/sentry or zealot/sentry/stalker can compete against marauders, but why make stalkers when you want more zealots/sentries anyway? (250/100 = 2 lot 1 sentry/2 stalker) If you have enough forcefields you shouldn't need any more range units than sentries.

TLO has proved time and time again he has one of the best multitasks in the game. He NEVER cheeses at all, I've seen him reaper rush once, no proxys, early pools, baneling busts, roach busts. Nothing. He does a LOT of harass (which takes multitask) and then macros hard with defensive play.



dunno how you want to stop 2 rax marauder with sentry/zeal and i dont understand your "zealots block stalker" thing.
since the THREAD-starter was writing about the early game, i thought it makes sense to talk about the early game.
so if he is going to pressure you a little bit late and you have enough time, its best to get all 3 gate units to split his marauders on the ramp running in with zeals as meatshield and killing with stalkers/sentrys and maybe microing the zeals back. when the mauders on top of the ramp die the terran will lose sight and you stopped the push.
if the terran is just sending his first marauder directly in your base its better to get a zeal first to buy time. as you mentioned marauders are a little bit more costeffective than stalkers and they nearly kill each other so get a zeal as meatshield and kill the marauder with the stalker.
note that the zealot is just and only meatshield, while the stalker is the damage dealer.
the stalker is fater than both, zeal and marauder so i really dont understand the "block thing".
maybe you can enlighten me or tell me how you deal with 2 rax marauder rushes (maybe 1 of them proxy rax). some people even send 2-3 scv with the first 2 marauders.
after 2 years i reached it = marine icon
Chronopolis
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1484 Posts
July 24 2010 21:11 GMT
#37
On July 25 2010 02:10 mOnion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 25 2010 02:07 Chronopolis wrote:
On July 25 2010 02:05 mOnion wrote:
On July 25 2010 01:59 Chronopolis wrote:
How many people were watching? It just sucks that people are going to think things like that. But in really early games situations I see so many naive terrans who kite and target the zealot. Much better is kiting and targeting the stalker, it goes down in far less hits.


someone else adding another unit to the original argument


Well, when do you have pure zealots or pure in early-game pvt?
"there really is no point in making zealots against a T early game"


exactly you would never have pure zealots early game for the exact reason THAT marauders are good against them

im just pointing out this fallacy that I see TIME and TIME again in the sc2 forum

"banshees are good against zealots"
"no they're not cuz stalker support rapes banshees"
"...but I just said zealots"

over and over


Your example is flawed not applicable to this statement.

"marauders are amazing vs zealots early game

This is only true with pure zealots, and no where in this statment does the speaker exclude the possibility of unit mixes

there really is no point in making zealots against a T early game"

This is obviously untrue, I don't think I need an example to disvalidate this.


With stalker+zealots, the unit combination peforms FAR better against marauder than pure zealot OR pure stalker alone.
Hidden_MotiveS
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada2562 Posts
July 24 2010 21:12 GMT
#38
Yeah TL is one of the only online gaming forums where what people are talking about makes sense and is good advice. This is usually the case in BW strategy at least. You should have become used to the bad advice elsewhere.
If you're not check out creepcolony
http://www.creepcolony.com/.
NrG.Bamboo
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2756 Posts
July 24 2010 21:13 GMT
#39
On July 25 2010 02:19 Plexa wrote:
I think we're going to be a bit more liberal with the sc2strat forum ban upon release

Please do.

Strike fear once again :D
I need to protect all your life you can enjoy the vibrant life of your battery
Kyuukyuu
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada6263 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-24 21:17:42
July 24 2010 21:14 GMT
#40
oh god we can't contain it
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