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On July 10 2010 04:14 789 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2010 03:08 Mecha_cl wrote:People seem to have this idea of hiding gaming history from future employers, but why? So what if you played wow for 2 years? Your boss thinks your a nerd, i don't lie when people ask me about that in real life since i have enough sense to pick my friends (who understand if it isn't their thing). People you meet in real life are alot more genuine (especially employers) than you think, it may help you get the job. This may not be an example for RealID, but imagine if your employer was like this guy's: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=134229Pretty sure you'd instantly have a job. Its a longshot, I've worked for around about 5 different places so far in my lifetime, and i can't think of one employer who would judge me on that and I've worked at MacDonalds and other similar places. Am I missing something here? Is MacDonalds some corporation of note in Australia that I'm not aware of? Or were you referring to the fast food chain McDonalds? If you're referring to McDonalds and working there and for similar places ... that's not qutie the jobs that would care about gaming. The places that would care are prestigious jobs (like doctors/lawyers), jobs in public view (like politicians/police/teachers), or professional jobs for just about any company. There is a stigma about gaming that can can be cast unfavorably on you in such positions. It probably won't cost you a job that you apply for, but if you're equally as qualified as someone they could go in that direction.
As a general rule, the MacDonalds here have strange hiring policies, they aren't quick to hiring people of my age (late teens) who aren't full-timers. They hire young kids usually for casual work, you need to have something to bring to the table. When managers ask for interests and I mention mine they are intrigued, if they don't understand thats fine, I explain to them how listening to casting develops communication, and how running guilds in WoW develops leadership skills. That sort of thing. Its more than nothing, so why hide it?
EDIT: If they don't want me, no harm no foul really, I can always get another job/do more interviews, if anything I may have taught them something new for the future.
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On July 10 2010 04:16 Mecha_cl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2010 04:12 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On July 10 2010 04:05 Mecha_cl wrote:On July 10 2010 04:00 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On July 10 2010 03:50 Mecha_cl wrote:On July 10 2010 03:43 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
I think you missed the mark again Mecha.
As Ray said in his first post. Everyone is always hiding behind masks in real life. You have to act a certain way, or say certain things to progress farther down lifes track. However in the presence of your friends you can be a completely different person. The internet operates in a very similar fashion to your friends in the regards of this:
You can be who you are, without being judged for it.
Who cares if magicwander doesn't like your random sex joke, because 10 other people did. Taking away someones alias and forcing them to use their name means they have to act online like they would if they were at work.
To give you a general example. My boss used to be part owner of a nightclub in town. His first step when he got a new resume was to search them on facebook to see their friend count and see what their interests were. He would then choose to call back based on what he saw there.
This is a minor example of what people do, but employer's are more and more researching potential hires by googling them or the like to see more of who they are.
RealID doesn't help any longterm problem, it just makes peoples lives marginally worse by narrowing the scope in which they can be themselves. While I respect you're opinion (and experience) I've found different, nobody (including employers) have ever judged me based on what I do, in fact, 2 interviews ago I can recall the manager asking what I like to do, I immediately said 'Gaming, Cricket and Podcasting' instantly, he didn't really understand so I spent 5 minutes explaining exactly what podcasts are and how they differ from what he knows. I ended up getting the job because the Manager instantly realised I can basically sell anything that i'd need to in the store (commission work you see). I know what you mean about the personalities differing from your name, but I believe that if you're using utilities such as Bnet 2.0 that is linked with social networking, you shouldn't have a free pass to be asse's to other people without feeling bad because they'll never know anything more than your username, at least you think twice (Even i do, and im quite liberal as you can see). I've mentioned several times that I want it for select sites, if you want to make sex jokes etc. then take it to websites made for it or people who you are sure won't be offended. Dude, people use an alias to be WHO they are. Look at the example you used. Podcasting is actually something I would see (as an employer) as useful. Podcasts serve as an excellent medium to pass on and garner information on any number of topics, this is insanely useful depending on your sector, and actually would impress an employer. Tell them your into WoW next time and try to sell how raiding increases productivity. It would change your results drastically. And seeing bnet 2.0 as a social networking thing is crap. Those devices are used mainly to keep in contact with friends, classmates, co workers, etc... Usually, the people you add are people who are your friends or at least people who have a vague understanding on who you are. In this case however, you don't have the option of the social networking aspect, its being thrust at you. To me, this whole RealID concept from blizard, is essentially telling me I don't know how to make my own friends. As such, I should act to who I am (and anyone should act on who they are) to meet others as to befriend them. RealID won't change anything. I can only see it being worse or staying the same. People just have to recognize that the internet is a place where people come to be themselves, and stop taking it so seriously. I do appreciate where you are coming from, but there are far to many cons that go along with this standard. Before I even finish reading your post I recall you and some guy got in an IRC fight that was eventually blogged, so I know you're the type of guy who hides behind his keyboard. I remember names as best I can, and you stick out. This is a good example of what I believe should happen. Actually, I scored a voluntary spot help organising a gig over 10 other people because when they asked what I had done before I said 'I've organised 40 man WoW raids, which basically means I 39 people what to do, they have no motivation other than their own selfish greed for pixels, I have to make them work as a term without bribing with anything more than a chance at getting something non existant'. Um... how is something not social networking AND used to keep in touch with old friends LOL. My best friends all have facebook, and even vague other people. Its detrimental if you have a social life and not social networking. If RealID would change nothing, then why is there such an uproar? I may be hard on you, but thats because I know both your name and you challenged me (which i encourage) Surprisingly I don't just hide behind my keyboard. Do a quick search on TL and you will find my name is posted in a few spots, as is the general area I live in. I am who I am and make no attempt to be otherwise. You did recall correctly on that blog however. I am glad to hear of your success with using gaming as a way to get work (volunteer work is still work). However that is not the norm quite yet. I may have mistyped my point. Social networking is used to keep in contact, however in the case of bnet 2.0, it is not like people are joining to be on a social network, they are joining to play a game. Having something you don't neccesarily want there shoved down your throat is eh. RealID wouldn't improve anything, but it could make things worse. Alot of people have used the example of employment, or female gamers being exposed as well, female gamers. There are loads of issues that can come up if suddenly your name is exposed to a large group of people who you don't know or trust. I appreciate the debate, I honestly think the best debates, or arguments, whatever you want to call it come from people with heated points of view. Hell, we have all been civil thus far as well, kudos to us! Thats fine, I did after I posted, thats fine but I still think I should have at least mentioned it rather than hating on you and just saying 'you're argument is invalid' like some people do. I know what you mean about RealID, and thats why I don't think Social Networking and Sc2 goes hand in hand, but I believe it does with WoW where as a general rule the playerbase does partake in facebook (I've even joined groups for guilds on facebook because they made me so I could -.- yeah i know). I appreciate the debate as well, and I should probably sleep, its 5am over here and I think i'm done laddering!
Mentioning it is worth it as well, it is recent history and people unfamiliar with my name would have that stigma associated with it. I expect that. However I appreciate you bringing it up tactfully rather than discounting my opinion due to it.
WoW I can see how RealID would be beneficial to a degree, but I think its unneeded. From what I have seen and experienced in WoW, close knit guilds essentially share all that information without the need of RealID. Much like any other game that you play with a tight close group of friends, you will share your name, potentially where you live, etc... etc..
The option to decide if you want to share your information (at least at this stage of the internet) I think still should be safely let up to the user, as you can't trust people to make the best decision for you.
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On July 10 2010 04:19 Mecha_cl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2010 04:14 789 wrote:On July 10 2010 03:08 Mecha_cl wrote:People seem to have this idea of hiding gaming history from future employers, but why? So what if you played wow for 2 years? Your boss thinks your a nerd, i don't lie when people ask me about that in real life since i have enough sense to pick my friends (who understand if it isn't their thing). People you meet in real life are alot more genuine (especially employers) than you think, it may help you get the job. This may not be an example for RealID, but imagine if your employer was like this guy's: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=134229Pretty sure you'd instantly have a job. Its a longshot, I've worked for around about 5 different places so far in my lifetime, and i can't think of one employer who would judge me on that and I've worked at MacDonalds and other similar places. Am I missing something here? Is MacDonalds some corporation of note in Australia that I'm not aware of? Or were you referring to the fast food chain McDonalds? If you're referring to McDonalds and working there and for similar places ... that's not qutie the jobs that would care about gaming. The places that would care are prestigious jobs (like doctors/lawyers), jobs in public view (like politicians/police/teachers), or professional jobs for just about any company. There is a stigma about gaming that can can be cast unfavorably on you in such positions. It probably won't cost you a job that you apply for, but if you're equally as qualified as someone they could go in that direction. As a general rule, the MacDonalds here have strange hiring policies, they aren't quick to hiring people of my age (late teens) who aren't full-timers. They hire young kids usually for casual work, you need to have something to bring to the table. When managers ask for interests and I mention mine they are intrigued, if they don't understand thats fine, I explain to them how listening to casting develops communication, and how running guilds in WoW develops leadership skills. That sort of thing. Its more than nothing, so why hide it? EDIT: If they don't want me, no harm no foul really, I can always get another job/do more interviews, if anything I may have taught them something new for the future.
That's not really any different than over here. They either want young teens or adults. I noticed you said that you did some volunteering where you organized something, that's the kind of stuff people will want to hear. If you were to try to get a job in say an office enviroment in managing a project with a few people below you - bringing up stuff like leading wow raids would be hit or miss depending on the interviewer. They will either think "cool leadership skills" or hold it against you ... either unaware of what that entails or buying into the stigma against gaming. Spending time organizing things as a volunteer ... they will eat that stuff up though. It's just a whole different world when you break away from unskilled or entry level jobs.
For instance - I work as a electronic test technician for my companies R&D department.. bringing up gaming could have backfired for me. Sure I could have brought up that I had participated in beta tests and already had experience writing bug reports; that could have either scored me points or gotten myself labeled as a productivity risk (stupid, but that is the sort of stigma against gamers).
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On July 10 2010 04:01 Mecha_cl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2010 03:55 Chairman Ray wrote:On July 10 2010 03:50 Mecha_cl wrote:On July 10 2010 03:43 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
I think you missed the mark again Mecha.
As Ray said in his first post. Everyone is always hiding behind masks in real life. You have to act a certain way, or say certain things to progress farther down lifes track. However in the presence of your friends you can be a completely different person. The internet operates in a very similar fashion to your friends in the regards of this:
You can be who you are, without being judged for it.
Who cares if magicwander doesn't like your random sex joke, because 10 other people did. Taking away someones alias and forcing them to use their name means they have to act online like they would if they were at work.
To give you a general example. My boss used to be part owner of a nightclub in town. His first step when he got a new resume was to search them on facebook to see their friend count and see what their interests were. He would then choose to call back based on what he saw there.
This is a minor example of what people do, but employer's are more and more researching potential hires by googling them or the like to see more of who they are.
RealID doesn't help any longterm problem, it just makes peoples lives marginally worse by narrowing the scope in which they can be themselves. While I respect you're opinion (and experience) I've found different, nobody (including employers) have ever judged me based on what I do, in fact, 2 interviews ago I can recall the manager asking what I like to do, I immediately said 'Gaming, Cricket and Podcasting' instantly, he didn't really understand so I spent 5 minutes explaining exactly what podcasts are and how they differ from what he knows. I ended up getting the job because the Manager instantly realised I can basically sell anything that i'd need to in the store (commission work you see). I know what you mean about the personalities differing from your name, but I believe that if you're using utilities such as Bnet 2.0 that is linked with social networking, you shouldn't have a free pass to be asse's to other people without feeling bad because they'll never know anything more than your username, at least you think twice (Even i do, and im quite liberal as you can see). I've mentioned several times that I want it for select sites, if you want to make sex jokes etc. then take it to websites made for it or people who you are sure won't be offended. In order to prove your employer argument, you have to prove that it is the case for 100% of people. Then you have to prove how people giving the option to tell their employers that they play video games isn't enough, that information has to be forcefully revealed online. This entire issue isn't about trolling vs no trolling. It's about method A vs method B for stopping trolling. Why are conventional methods to stopping trolling so ineffective and revealing personal information more effective? I haven't seen Blizzard do/suggest/indicate doing anything besides RealID to change to forum rules, when they come up with a better solution and tell me, because i'll eat my words and cry tears of happiness when they do something productive to their community that doesn't increase sales by X% when Y MMO comes out that holds competition. It is about trolling vs trolling since Blizzard said it was when they released it. My point is (and i don't expect this to change other peoples opinions, since I'm some guy on the internet on the other side of the world telling you this, is that people need to learn to approach the blizzard community as less of a free space to dump shit on other people.
The fact that Blizzard hasn't done anything better than RealID doesn't prove your argument that RealID is an effective solution. They don't have to come up with a better solution because there are better solutions out there already. To name a few, player moderators like they have on Runescape forums, post ratings like they have on Youtube and LoL forums, or big red text like they have on Team Liquid. These are three different methods that have all been proven to be effective.
If Blizzard said that RealID is the difference between trolling and no trolling, they are largely mistaken. RealID is the difference between Elitepwner666 and Mike Litoris, the difference between a large userbase and a small userbase, and also between identity security and letting everyone know that you're a female.
I agree with you that Blizzard forums being a troll-free place is benefitting, but not only is RealID an ineffective counter-measure to trolling, it also poses risks to their users, and opens up other avenues for trolling.
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I think you are too latched onto the idea of RealID and not looking for the truth of the argument.
It's WAY too progressive for our times and societies.
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United States24554 Posts
On July 10 2010 03:08 Mecha_cl wrote:
Hey guys,
In a nutshell, I support RealID for forums because
A) Trolling is too much of an issue, especially on Bnet/Wow forums
This wouldn't solve the trolling problem in the long term since people would stop using accounts that had their actual name stored.
B) I believe that everyone should have a reputation, if you express extremist opinions (As I've being told mine is on this issue) and people form an opinion of you then so be it. I have no problem with you needing to maintain the same persona across the Blizzard universe, I guess, but forcing you to do it across every aspect of your life throughout the entire world is not appropriate.
C) With things like social networking becoming more of an everyday utility, the distinction between your handle and your real name is non existent. You should be held accountable ALWAYS, there is no difference between what Mecha says online (Me) and what Nathan Townsend (Yes shock horror my name :O) would say A) in real life and B) anywhere else.
You might be right about Nathan Townsend, but you are wrong about most people. Social Networking does NOT mean that your online identity has to be linked to your real life one.
D) I believe this does more good than harm to get people (I'm looking at overprotective parents and ignorant teens) who play wow to learn more about how much more secure the internet is and how ignorance is not bliss. Wow does your opinions about wow need to affect me, an sc2 player?
I've heard all of these counter-arguments. Guess what? If some freak adds you on facebook and he has no mutual friends do you know what you do? say NO. You are never denied that on Facebook or any other social networking site I've ever seen. If someone starts being an ass in a thread with your name on it, Edit your portion out, talk to a mod or even delete the post if you were OP and have the rights. You really haven't addressed most of the counterarguments at all. I also don't understand what you are talking about with the someone starts being an ass thing...
Cmon people, become accountable for what you say, i'm pretty bothered by this because the bnet/wow forums are a mess that has to be cleaned up (and the wow community in general). Needing to cleanup the forums for some game does not sound like a reasonable justification for forcing EVERYONE to be accountable for everything they say online. I have no problem being accountable for what I say on TL... to the rest of the starcraft community. If I talk smack about Karune or something I won't be surprised if he finds out... and that will affect how I'm treated on TL, BNET, etc. But when I'm interviewing for a real job with a very nice salary, I need to paint myself in the best light possible to avoid getting beat out by the 20 other highly qualified applicants who are trying to do the same. If they google all of their names the last thing I want is for my online identify to be visible. If just ONE of the activities I do online which uses something akin to real ID is an activity that is deemed not 'socially acceptable' by the interviewers then I'm out. Or if I say one psuedo-inappropriate thing like "Karune sucks at communication" instead of the professionally acceptable "Karune should utilize more thorough communication channels" or some bullshit like that, then I could be out. You thinking "oh c'mon that really won't happen" or "you shouldn't want to work for people like that?" Well unfortunately all interviewers are like that in one capacity or another. Most people I've interviewed with in the past year don't know the difference in between pacman and gears of war and don't give two shits about my gaming habits. If I started explaining it to them, 50% of them would be like "this guy isn't mature enough for this position" believe me. To think otherwise is very naive.
I notice your birthday is left out of your profile. A bit ironic considering you are all for sharing our private information on the blizz forums.
People seem to have this idea of hiding gaming history from future employers, but why? So what if you played wow for 2 years? Your boss thinks your a nerd, i don't lie when people ask me about that in real life since i have enough sense to pick my friends (who understand if it isn't their thing). People you meet in real life are alot more genuine (especially employers) than you think, it may help you get the job. This may not be an example for RealID, but imagine if your employer was like this guy's: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=134229Pretty sure you'd instantly have a job. Its a longshot, I've worked for around about 5 different places so far in my lifetime, and i can't think of one employer who would judge me on that and I've worked at MacDonalds and other similar places.
There isn't much distinction between Mecha and Nathan, in fact I've had some pretty interesting conversations about this in real life already and how i actually believe that this would help gaming. Again you are taking your experience and assuming it applies to other people. It does not.
The internet is no longer just a cute gimmicky toy like it was around 10 years ago where different niche communities would do their own thing with their own figureheads. The internet is turning more into a utility for everybody than anything else. People should learn this, if you want to hide behind that sort of avatar and use the internet as such a thing then go play services such as Xbox Live, PSN and maybe even Steam then by all means do that. But with the way Battle.net 2.0 and how WoW is aimed more at your average player (hence the trolling/community issues that I constantly face) you need to learn that WoW is turning more and more into Mafia Wars and Farmville where people play it just to be social and because its easy to learn and easily rewarding with things such as easy acheivements, raids etc. (Another blog, another time i think). Thats enough from me, ranty I know but I want to see peoples opinions on this. EDIT: Totalbiscuit of Cynicalbrit.com has a very interesting piece on this in his popular show Blue Plz! Link: http://cynicalbrit.com/audio/blueplz060710.mp3 (Around an hour in) Sorry for shameless plug but its definitely reinforcing.
I'm glad you decided that Xbox Live, PSN, and Steam are good places to be anonymous but the blizzard forums are not. Your criteria are very arbitrary. Ironically Xbox Live is the service that bans your account if your behavior is too negative... and you need a new identity in order to create a new account. I don't see the blizzforums doing that.
In summary: you are seeing things from a very narrow perspective and need to realize that there are much more consequences to the real ID system than you originally thought. I have only given one or two examples of hundreds of reasons why realID is a bad precedent to set and there's a reason why there was such a huge backlash that Mike had to release and immediate statement informing us that they are no longer proceeding with forcing realId on the blizz forums.
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On July 10 2010 03:08 Mecha_cl wrote:Hey guys, In a nutshell, I support RealID for forums because A) Trolling is too much of an issue, especially on Bnet/Wow forums B) I believe that everyone should have a reputation, if you express extremist opinions (As I've being told mine is on this issue) and people form an opinion of you then so be it. C) With things like social networking becoming more of an everyday utility, the distinction between your handle and your real name is non existent. You should be held accountable ALWAYS, there is no difference between what Mecha says online (Me) and what Nathan Townsend (Yes shock horror my name :O) would say A) in real life and B) anywhere else. D) I believe this does more good than harm to get people (I'm looking at overprotective parents and ignorant teens) who play wow to learn more about how much more secure the internet is and how ignorance is not bliss. I've heard all of these counter-arguments. Guess what? If some freak adds you on facebook and he has no mutual friends do you know what you do? say NO. You are never denied that on Facebook or any other social networking site I've ever seen. If someone starts being an ass in a thread with your name on it, Edit your portion out, talk to a mod or even delete the post if you were OP and have the rights. Cmon people, become accountable for what you say, i'm pretty bothered by this because the bnet/wow forums are a mess that has to be cleaned up (and the wow community in general). People seem to have this idea of hiding gaming history from future employers, but why? So what if you played wow for 2 years? Your boss thinks your a nerd, i don't lie when people ask me about that in real life since i have enough sense to pick my friends (who understand if it isn't their thing). People you meet in real life are alot more genuine (especially employers) than you think, it may help you get the job. This may not be an example for RealID, but imagine if your employer was like this guy's: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=134229Pretty sure you'd instantly have a job. Its a longshot, I've worked for around about 5 different places so far in my lifetime, and i can't think of one employer who would judge me on that and I've worked at MacDonalds and other similar places. There isn't much distinction between Mecha and Nathan, in fact I've had some pretty interesting conversations about this in real life already and how i actually believe that this would help gaming. The internet is no longer just a cute gimmicky toy like it was around 10 years ago where different niche communities would do their own thing with their own figureheads. The internet is turning more into a utility for everybody than anything else. People should learn this, if you want to hide behind that sort of avatar and use the internet as such a thing then go play services such as Xbox Live, PSN and maybe even Steam then by all means do that. But with the way Battle.net 2.0 and how WoW is aimed more at your average player (hence the trolling/community issues that I constantly face) you need to learn that WoW is turning more and more into Mafia Wars and Farmville where people play it just to be social and because its easy to learn and easily rewarding with things such as easy acheivements, raids etc. (Another blog, another time i think). Thats enough from me, ranty I know but I want to see peoples opinions on this. EDIT: Totalbiscuit of Cynicalbrit.com has a very interesting piece on this in his popular show Blue Plz! Link: http://cynicalbrit.com/audio/blueplz060710.mp3 (Around an hour in) Sorry for shameless plug but its definitely reinforcing.
All in a nutshell. They have a report button like TL does as well. And a lot of people just report now. Trolling has died A LOT in the forums because of it.
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Vatican City State101 Posts
On July 10 2010 05:21 ella_guru wrote:
I think you are too latched onto the idea of RealID and not looking for the truth of the argument.
It's WAY too progressive for our times and societies.
You could argue that it's actually regressive instead. For me it's a matter of choice (or lack thereof). Some people are comfortable with their real names and personal info on the net, others aren't. You shouldn't force either of these options on a community. Let people decide if they want to display their name or not.
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