Before anyone else gets this wrong: I'm totally aware of the fact that this catastrophic result was totally avoidable and was only due to bad positioning and scouting. Got it now? Pleasse
Ok, I was out of position and did not know that he came. But this battle that was potentially open in terms of armies (since siegetank/thor can give infestors quite a hard time when properly positioned) was decided in approximately 5 seconds if not less. Well, actually the moment he a-clicked and I was badly positioned, the game was over.
<5 Seconds for two almost 150 supply armies? Come on what it this...
Also busts the comparison between Banelings and Spider Mines. Try to get this result with two groups of vultures. Maybe, if your opponent felt asleep before the battle, you can get the same result - but still not in this ridiculous short amount of time.
Certainly, this is a situation that can be avoided by keeping the army positioned better and having more information over the map. However, it's absolutely frustrating since there is nothing that can be done anymore as soon as battle starts, because it's already over at that point.
Video featuring me, a random platinum Zerg and lovely ATI graphic bugs.
Compare to lurker/ling destroying your entire mm army in 3 seconds in Brood War, tanks completely owning your idle dragoons in 2 seconds Brood War, or psi storm destroying your 40 hydralisks in 1 second.
On May 13 2010 13:23 ramen247 wrote: you got out macroed completely
No that battle would've been winable for me since Siegetanks will easily respond to banelings and infestors attempting to mind control.
On May 13 2010 13:29 neobowman wrote: Compare to lurker/ling destroying your entire mm army in 3 seconds in Brood War, tanks completely owning your idle dragoons in 2 seconds Brood War, or psi storm destroying your 40 hydralisks in 1 second.
When lurkers try to move in, there still is a good time gap to retreat bio units, same goes for tanks. Psi storm indeed was more equal to this.
You can't just look at it as "this one battle". I think you gotta see if they scouted correctly. Positioning when not moving out is also important. The high ground should have a unit to spot anything coming imo.
On May 13 2010 13:23 ramen247 wrote: you got out macroed completely
No that battle would've been winable for me since Siegetanks will easily respond to banelings and infestors attempting to mind control.
No way in hell. Zerg had like twice bigger army. Have you noticed that horde of roaches that came right after banelings? They wouldn't let you touch infestors
On May 13 2010 13:23 ramen247 wrote: you got out macroed completely
No that battle would've been winable for me since Siegetanks will easily respond to banelings and infestors attempting to mind control.
No way in hell. Zerg had like twice bigger army. Have you noticed that horde of roaches that came right after banelings? They wouldn't let you touch infestors
Siege Tank range 13. Banelings just pop before reaching units due to splash on 30-hp-units, Infestors cannot mind control thors that stand next to siegetanks without beeing in range and in danger of getting two-hitted. A Roach wall does not mean anything for this.
@ Outmacroed: My Army Size: 4400 min 2050 gas 139 Supply His Army Size: 4750 min 2600 gas 138 Supply (3rd expansion was up for about one minute when the fight came up)
Having mass roaches does not require any kind of better macro or economy. Lovely how good you can read me beeing outmacroed from this. Consider the costs of Thors compared to those of roaches and banelings.
On May 13 2010 13:23 ramen247 wrote: you got out macroed completely
No that battle would've been winable for me since Siegetanks will easily respond to banelings and infestors attempting to mind control.
No way in hell. Zerg had like twice bigger army. Have you noticed that horde of roaches that came right after banelings? They wouldn't let you touch infestors
Siege Tank range 13. Banelings just pop before reaching units due to splash on 30-hp-units, Infestors cannot mind control thors that stand next to siegetanks without beeing in range and in danger of getting two-hitted. A Roach wall does not mean anything for this.
@ Outmacroed: My Army Size: 4400 min 2050 gas 139 Supply His Army Size: 4750 min 2600 gas 138 Supply (3rd expansion was up for about one minute when the fight came up)
Having mass roaches does not require any kind of better macro or economy. Lovely how good you can read me beeing outmacroed from this. Consider the costs of Thors compared to those of roaches and banelings.
HAH you got owned son. Good job putting him in his place teek
1. you let him have the high ground for free that completely kills most of your range advantage when you're at the bottom of the hill. good job accounting for a flank. 2. half your siege tanks weren't even sieged while you turtle, and when he attacks, you un-siege the rest. 3. your thors weren't even that close to your siege tanks (which weren't even in siege mode to begin with), so you can't say siege tanks would've killed the infestors. 4. you could've easily stimmed and got your infantry out of the way. 5. infestors destroy your food argument. it's a 12 food swing in his favor for every thor taken (p.s. thats 36 extra supply over you).
On May 13 2010 14:22 paper wrote: 1. you let him have the high ground for free that completely kills most of your range advantage when you're at the bottom of the hill. good job accounting for a flank. 2. half your siege tanks weren't even sieged while you turtle, and when he attacks, you un-siege the rest. 3. your thors weren't even that close to your siege tanks (which weren't even in siege mode to begin with), so you can't say siege tanks would've killed the infestors. 4. you could've easily stimmed and got your infantry out of the way. 5. infestors destroy your food argument. it's a 12 food swing in his favor for every thor taken (p.s. thats 36 extra supply over you).
1. you let him have the high ground for free that completely kills most of your range advantage when you're at the bottom of the hill. good job accounting for a flank. 2. half your siege tanks weren't even sieged while you turtle, and when he attacks, you un-siege the rest. 3. your thors weren't even that close to your siege tanks (which weren't even in siege mode to begin with), so you can't say siege tanks would've killed the infestors. 4. you could've easily stimmed and got your infantry out of the way. 5. infestors destroy your food argument. it's a 12 food swing in his favor for every thor taken (p.s. thats 36 extra supply over you).
On May 13 2010 13:19 teekesselchen wrote: <5 Seconds for two almost 150 supply armies? Come on what it this...
You may be in a different frame of reference, but from my end that took 20 seconds. You can similar phenomenon even in BW with stop lurkers, tanks, vulture mines.
You just happened to be caught way out of position, and he had an army composition superior to yours.
yea just keep playing that was a bit of a fluke, but as you said you were out of position, SC is a very challenging game were if a player takes advantage of things like that they should win.
On May 13 2010 14:22 paper wrote: 1. you let him have the high ground for free that completely kills most of your range advantage when you're at the bottom of the hill. good job accounting for a flank. 2. half your siege tanks weren't even sieged while you turtle, and when he attacks, you un-siege the rest. 3. your thors weren't even that close to your siege tanks (which weren't even in siege mode to begin with), so you can't say siege tanks would've killed the infestors. 4. you could've easily stimmed and got your infantry out of the way. 5. infestors destroy your food argument. it's a 12 food swing in his favor for every thor taken (p.s. thats 36 extra supply over you).
wowowowow I never said something like I played my best and he crushed it because it is an imbalanced situation that should be equal. I definitly say "Yes, it is totally my fault that he was able to overrun me." and thought this was clear. So please stop reminding me why I lost that situation (Btw Thors were rather a relic from situations before where he used many mutalisks.)
What I rather wanted to say "oh my god that was over quickly" and that it can feel frustrating.
Btw no GG was because he was a jerk, like no greeting/gl hf and spaming me in some foreign language, I think something like ukrainian.
On May 13 2010 14:22 paper wrote:
5. infestors destroy your food argument. it's a 12 food swing in his favor for every thor taken (p.s. thats 36 extra supply over you).
Three things to say: Yes, you are right with points 1-4. No, you totally missed the point of the post, it was never about the why. And no, Infestors do not destroy the food argument because they are a unit that can be outmicroed and do not mean extra supplies for him then, apart from the fact that when they're only made for mind controll, you have to subtract the infestor supply from the Zerg of course.
if you are completely outnumbered and arent reducing the size of his army at all during the battle, why are you so surprised he ran over you in a matter of seconds, especially when your biggest tanks (the thors) were swung to his side immediately? banelings are also a unit designed to deal out heavily casualties instantly. your argument is vacuous.
maybe all you are trying to say is that shit dies really fast in sc2. But that has been brought up countless times already.
why would you post a video of yourself getting owned (granted it was hilarious to watch) then proceed to whine when people state the obvious: you were out macroed, out microed, the other player was better than you. lol at unsieging tanks and lack of map control/vision.
it would've been an even battle, if you had sieged tanks/vision, but alas no.
On May 13 2010 18:32 shalafiend wrote: why would you post a video of yourself getting owned (granted it was hilarious to watch) then proceed to whine when people state the obvious: you were out macroed, out microed, the other player was better than you. lol at unsieging tanks and lack of map control/vision.
it would've been an even battle, if you had sieged tanks/vision, but alas no.
It simply is the perfect example for moments when SC2 simply is way too fast. 150 supply x2 shouldn't be over within this period of time.
Btw I created a szenario that just puts those units against each other but with better terran positioning. It triggers the zerg unit to do more or less what a player does, even a bit better in some aspects (Infestors do all their actions perfectly queued up for example and have infinite energy, banelings got different target units or points). Actually I forgot to place 4 marauders and 3 hydras and didn't use stim (ok not so important in that position anyways) because it ran with only like 2 FPS, however here's the result.
Wow I cannot believe I do this only to tell people "No outmacroing" :D (economically it's a different point but it was very equal as well)
Unit counts (only units involved in battle of course) were: 18 Marines, 4 Marauders (forgot to place them), 6 Hellions, 4 Thors, 6 Siegetanks Upgrades: 0-1 Infantrie, Stim, Combat Shield, Concussive Shells, Infernal Pre-Igniter, Siegemode
vs.
28 Banelings, 20 Speedlings, 23 Roaches, 3 Hydras (whoops forgot them, too, but that should equalize with 8 marauders, shouldn't it?), 8 Infestors Upgrades: 0 Melee 1 Range 1 Armor, Roachspeed, Banelingspeed, Zerglingspeed, Neural Parasite
Ok, due to almost no micro the Zerg does win. But with this amount of units left he could never just continue pushing trough and win the game right away.
EPT
